The Watchmaker Revisited

[Darkstorn]

Continued:

When you awaken from a dream, you know it to be a dream just by the very act of awakening. The mystical experience is an awakening of a much higher nature.

Aaaaah. So it's a bit like Christians telling me that there's a god, i just need to open my eyes to see it. It sounds a bit like special pleading.

And it sounds exactly like the same argument you've repeated several times so far, without changing it one bit. It's still: "Would you pwwwweeeeeeaaase believe my claims without evidence? THEN you will see."

You can always leave your fixation on those delusional dancing cave wall shadows called Reason, Logic, and Analysis, and go outside the cave to see the Sun for yourself.

Special pleading.

Fine, but you make the error of claiming that the self is necessary to the mystical experience. Why do you think that?

I think you've made so many errors that it'd be fair to not hang up on perceived errors of others. Maybe the root of the problem is that people are understanding what you're saying. But you aren't understanding what others are saying to you.

Like i said, i made no such claims. You don't understand what i tell you.

But YOU don't understand it. If you do, tell me how molecules and electrical energy create consciousness.

I don't have to if you don't have to explain the mechanisms for your claims. But if you insist:

"The same way they create everything else; physics and chemistry."

You seem not to get the difference. Proselytizing involves belief in a doctrine that cannot be demonstrated to be true. I am telling you that you can demonstrate the authenticity of the mystical experience by experiencing it directly yourself. Belief is not a part of the experience.

Wow.

Sounds a lot like any other religious person proselytizing to be honest. That's what they all say. "Once you open your eyes, you will realize that it's not a matter of belief." That's the claim.

Special pleading - Wikipedia

I don't know any more than you do in terms of the mystical experience, because it is not an experience involving knowledge. It is the experience of realizing your oneness with the Universe. Yes, you can intellectually understand your being at one with the Universe, but experiencing it is not the same thing.

This is the claim. Now demonstrate it. Otherwise you are guilty of special pleading and appealing to emotion.

I am suggesting that you don't see the mystical experience as valid simply because your mental conditioning prevents you from doing so.

I know. It's a classic example of special pleading.

It's baggage that you only see the world in terms of Reason, Logic, and Analysis, which serve to reinforce that very baggage as being the correct view.

You don't know how i see the world in terms of anything. You don't get to claim that i have baggage. Unless your only aim is to do as much special pleading in one post as humanly possible.

Well, i'll put your fears to rest: You broke the record.

They are judge, jury and hangman. Basically your vision is distorted and in need of correction, but you don't know it, so accustomed to the distortion you have become.

You seem to be fixated on making claims of me and other people based on what you read here. But this is a debate forum, and in a formal debate the position of the arguers should NOT matter one bit. Only the strength of the argument.

I have been in formal arguments. I've even argued for things i don't agree with.

And i'm not shooting down your arguments because of what you believe, but because of the weakness of your argument. YOU are shooting down our arguments based on what WE believe.

Or more accurately, what you think we believe.

I'm a Buddhist. But i'm not arguing from a Buddhist point of view. I feel your constant claims of me being conditioned and blind and having baggage, actually lower the value of your points.

"Judgmental little fool" is probably not something you were looking for when it comes to peoples' perceptions of you. But that's how i see you.

More later....

cheers

No, thank YOU.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't recall saying that thinking comes from the hara. I said it was a center of consciousness. If the hara is not in balance, it will affect your thought process.

If movement starts from the hara, then it must be conscious.

Unjustified conclusion.

 

[Polymath257]

So you are saying that, when someone makes the decision to meditate, it is the brain that is actually making that decision, and that the changes that occur to the brain, respiratory system, heart rate, pain, digestion, etc. are also controlled by the brain. If that is the case, why does the brain need consciousness in the form of a self to make that decision, or any decision? Does the brain decide to go biking, or have a martini after work, or go have a pizza on the spur of the moment? How does the brain learn to lie, or crack a joke, or create a scenario to put the make on a woman or a man, and then to top it all off, to sit back and reflect on all those decisions or experiences once it decides to go ahead with them? All via chemicals and electricity? Is it all electro-chemical when the brain decides to become a murderer or a nun? What determines that difference? The brain creates a persona and then creates scenarios for that persona to follow? If that is the case, then every brain is different, as each human is different.

Yes, exactly. Every brain is different. And yes, all the rest of what you listed is done by the brain. Consciousness is just one aspect of the brain that focuses on certain things when needed.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

OK, why not?

My brain does not control who I am. When I make the decision to strive for higher spiritual ground, that is to say, greater joy in my life, it is not the brain doing that.

In fact, all the evidence points precisely to it being the brain that does that.

There's some other presence in my life that is subtlety prompting me to do so, and I know for certain it is not the brain.

How do you know *for certain* it isn't the brain? Remember that the brain is a collection of interacting processors, each doing a job related to some aspect of your thoughts, emotions, etc. Maybe you need to pick up a book on neurology and see what we *know* about how the brain does things?

I do not experience consciousness only in my cranial area; I experience it throughout my body in different centers. These are called chakras, the most prominent ones being the heart chakra and the hara, just below the navel, unmistakable centers of conscious awareness. In fact, in the East, the center of consciousness is NOT in the cranium, but in the hara. It is the hara that is closely watched in martial arts to determine the next move the opponent will make. When I focus on the hara, there is a powerful sense of peace and balance that develops. There is something alive and conscious in the hara, nothing like the experience in my head. It is not intellectual at all, and feels like the seat of power, but not in the egotistic sense at all, but just power that is conscious, and that knows far more than my mind can possibly know, as if it is always far ahead of what the brain can come up with.

You feel pain in a leg because the brain gets information from neurons in that leg and *interprets* that information as coming from that leg. You feel consciousness in the chakra because the brain processes information and *interprets* it as coming from that area of the body. This is all the action of the brain and its interpretation of information.

If it is the brain making the decision to gain higher ground, then why does it not just do that and stay in that state? Why is its default state that of ordinary life, with all its pitfalls and misery? If what you say is true, then the brain is a faulty piece of hardware, as the history of the world is testament to, the brain having made all those horrible decisions for war and greed.

There is more than one part to the brain. It was evolved to deal with day to day, ordinary life. Some states (like 'higher' consciousness) are unstable because they aren't as useful for survival in the real world.

Yes, brains make our decisions. We *are* the processes at work in the brain.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

"None of the quantum particles is matter"

"...everything in the Universe came from a quantum vacuum..."

"the scale of our existence...gives us the illusion of our world being solid"

So bottom line: there is matter or there is no matter?

I am becoming convinced that consciousness may truly exist independent of a physical brain. How can any rational conscious being read my entire post, and still question if "there is matter or there is no matter?

It is becoming quite apparent that your understanding of the quantum and classical worlds, is truly not your area of expertise. Your understanding of human physiology and comparative anatomy, is even more questionable.

If you stick your finger in a beaker of water, the level of water will rise(a little), because your finger is composed of matter and must occupy space. This means that the water level must rise to accommodate for the displacement of water your finger caused. But what if you instead added salt or sugar to the beaker of water? Would the level of water rise, fall, or stay the same? It will stay the same. Does this mean that salt and sugar are not composed of matter? This is the argument you seem to be peddling. Using aspects of the quantum world and applying them to aspects of the classical world, This is dishonest, and misleading to the uninformed. The Quantum world(and its mechanics) is based on wave/particle duality, the uncertainty principle, Quantum gravity, vacuum, and fluctuation, and waves of probabilities. In the classical world, matter is not uncertain, does not exhibit particle duality, and predictably follows the laws of classical physic and relativity. Stating that if a point disturbance in the Quantum field is composed of energy, then matter itself, is also composed of energy. If matter at the Quantum level is composed of energy, then matter in the classical world must also be composed of energy. This is a fallacy(more than one), and ignores the differences in scales of both realities, or that energy is a property of matter used to do work. However, quantum particles ARE the smallest fundamental particles of matter, and that matter is indeed made from them.

We have no illusions about our classical world. Try violating its laws and it will quickly become obvious to you. No matter how much you convince you seperated mind to convince your seperate brain, to create your separate reality, it will always be the same reality that we all share.

 

[godnotgod]

Unjustified conclusion.

In the context of martial arts, the movement beginning in the hara is the intent to attack; that intent must be conscious.

 

[godnotgod]

I am becoming convinced that consciousness may truly exist independent of a physical brain. How can any rational conscious being read my entire post, and still question if "there is matter or there is no matter?

It is becoming quite apparent that your understanding of the quantum and classical worlds, is truly not your area of expertise. Your understanding of human physiology and comparative anatomy, is even more questionable.

If you stick your finger in a beaker of water, the level of water will rise(a little), because your finger is composed of matter and must occupy space. This means that the water level must rise to accommodate for the displacement of water your finger caused. But what if you instead added salt or sugar to the beaker of water? Would the level of water rise, fall, or stay the same? It will stay the same. Does this mean that salt and sugar are not composed of matter? This is the argument you seem to be peddling. Using aspects of the quantum world and applying them to aspects of the classical world, This is dishonest, and misleading to the uninformed. The Quantum world(and its mechanics) is based on wave/particle duality, the uncertainty principle, Quantum gravity, vacuum, and fluctuation, and waves of probabilities. In the classical world, matter is not uncertain, does not exhibit particle duality, and predictably follows the laws of classical physic and relativity. Stating that if a point disturbance in the Quantum field is composed of energy, then matter itself, is also composed of energy. If matter at the Quantum level is composed of energy, then matter in the classical world must also be composed of energy. This is a fallacy(more than one), and ignores the differences in scales of both realities, or that energy is a property of matter used to do work. However, quantum particles ARE the smallest fundamental particles of matter, and that matter is indeed made from them.

We have no illusions about our classical world. Try violating its laws and it will quickly become obvious to you. No matter how much you convince you seperated mind to convince your seperate brain, to create your separate reality, it will always be the same reality that we all share.

I understand 'particles' to be 'bundles of energy' in the Quantum field, rather than solid particles of 'matter'. The macro world is composed of these ''bundles of energy'. So what we perceive as a 'material world' is not material at all. It is an illusion of materiality. That is my understanding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In the context of martial arts, the movement beginning in the hara is the intent to attack; that intent must be conscious.

The brain sends the signal, the body reacts.

 

[godnotgod]

There is more than one part to the brain. It was evolved to deal with day to day, ordinary life. Some states (like 'higher' consciousness) are unstable because they aren't as useful for survival in the real world.

Yes, brains make our decisions. We *are* the processes at work in the brain.

Yes, it evolved to navigate our environment for survival, primarily and initially. But along with that, it also developed clan warfare, hatred, and greed 'for survival' in 'day to day, ordinary life'. Higher Consciousness shows the way to Love, Peace, and social interaction for the survival of the world, IN the real world. So, in comparison, the brain is defective hardware, and mere survival must be transcended for man to survive as a whole world. The brain is not geared to that kind of thinking; it is still in jungle survival phase. Consciousness must re-program the brain for a better plan. And it does that. It rewires the neural network and actually grows thicker cortexes, for a couple of example.

You call higher consciousness 'unstable' because the conditioned brain keeps pulling us back into destructive behavior. It is not higher consciousness that is unstable, but now that it has illuminated the defective thinking of the brain, instability is the result. This always happens to students of spirituality in making their transition from conditioned mentality to spiritual freedom, and why a teacher or sanga is recommended.

 

[godnotgod]

The brain sends the signal, the body reacts.

The hara makes the decision to react in a particular way.

American soldiers in the Korean War were commanded to take a hill occupied by the enemy. They charged the hill with their rifles and bayonets. Some had their heads blown off, but they kept charging, an indication that consciousness exists in other areas of the body. The decision to continue charging was made...where?

Is the genuine feeling of Love in the heart area something the brain is controlling? You can only know this via direct experience. The brain is the center of the intellect. It cannot generate the full experience of Love, although it can be transformed by it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The hara makes the decision to react in a particular way.

American soldiers in the Korean War were commanded to take a hill occupied by the enemy. They charged the hill with their rifles and bayonets. Some had their heads blown off, but they kept charging, an indication that consciousness exists in other areas of the body. The decision to continue charging was made...where?

Nope, there is no indication of that at all. We can test and confirm activity in the brain leading to motion of the body.

And no, stories of people continuing to charge after getting their heads blown off are just stories. In the heat of battle people's memories are not very reliable at times.

 

[godnotgod]

Nope, there is no indication of that at all. We can test and confirm activity in the brain leading to motion of the body.

And no, stories of people continuing to charge after getting their heads blown off are just stories. In the heat of battle people's memories are not very reliable at times.

In general, the center of consciousness in the East, where many martial arts originated, is the hara, and not the head.

I can only tell you that my experience with the hara is completely different than that with the thinking brain. I cannot imagine how what goes on in the hara can possibly come from the intellect.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In general, the center of consciousness in the East, where many martial arts originated, is the hara, and not the head.

I can only tell you that my experience with the hara is completely different than that with the thinking brain. I cannot imagine how what goes on in the hara can possibly come from the intellect.

And this is an argument from ignorance. When tested the hara is not a seat of thought.

 

[godnotgod]

And this is an argument from ignorance. When tested the hara is not a seat of thought.

Second time: I never said it was; I said it is a center of consciousness. There are others, like:

Radiant Man / Radiant Woman
by Arguelles

Are you saying that thousands of years of Eastern wisdom is ignorance?

The West is like a Big Monkey brandishing it's Big Toys of science and technology, creating many imbalances in the world, outcomes of the defective thinking brain.

It puts a probe here and there in the brain and declares: 'Ah Ha!...Ve haf found der seat uf der consciousness!'

Idiots!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Second time: I never said it was; I said it is a center of consciousness. There are others, like:

View attachment 23483

Are you saying that thousands of years of Eastern wisdom is ignorance?

The West is like a Big Monkey brandishing it's Big Toys of science and technology, creating many imbalances in the world, outcomes of the defective thinking brain.

It puts a probe here and there in the brain and declares: 'Ah Ha!...Ve haf found der seat of consciousness!'

Idiots!

Eastern wisdom misapplied is ignorance.

For example "chi" or "ki" is merely correct application of force. It is not a mystical power.

 

[godnotgod]

Eastern wisdom misapplied is ignorance.

For example "chi" or "ki" is merely correct application of force. It is not a mystical power.

You're a misinformed reductionist.

I bet you don't understand what the word 'mystical' actually means.

Kundalini

When awakened, Kundalini is said to rise up from the muladhara chakra, through the central nadi (called sushumna) inside or alongside the spine reaching the top of the head. The progress of Kundalini through the different chakras is believed to achieve different levels of awakening and a mystical experience, until Kundalini finally reaches the top of the head, Sahasrara or crown chakra, producing an extremely profound transformation of consciousness.[3]:5–6 Energy is said to accumulate in the muladhara, and the yogi seeks to send it up to the brain transforming it into 'Ojas', the highest form of energy.
Kundalini - Wikipedia

Neurological Changes through QEEG studies
A series of QEEG studies were conducted on participants who had Kundalini awakening to study the effects of Kundalini Awakening on electrical activity in the brain. The same studies were also conducted on a controlled group.

These included:

1. Short term effects observed at the moment of initiation by Paramahamsa Nithyananda
2. Long term effects measured through post-activation assessment of various mental and cognitive functions

Findings:

At the moment of initiation, certain instantaneous changes were recorded in all participants who had active Kundalini awakening, including:

1. Sharper focusing abilities
2. Higher alertness levels
3. Extremely rapid multi-processing
4. Better short-term memory

Significantly, the brain waves of subjects during the activation showed a high incidence of delta waves, indicating that they were in a state of deep relaxation comparable to sleep, but with High Awareness. In Vedic science, this state of intense restful awareness is known as Sthitha Prajna (Established in Higher Consciousness).
Post-activation assessment conclusively showed:

1. Higher problem-solving abilities
2. More effective decision-making
3. Enhanced interpersonal relations
4. Warm and positive personality trends

Neurological Changes in Brain – InnerAwakening

The awakening of the kundalini power begins at the base of the spine, and travels upwards along the spinal chord to illuminate the cranium. It is NOT a mental activity of the brain. It causes the brain to realize its full potential.

Brain research and consciousness

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're a misinformed and maligned reductionist.

I bet you don't understand what the word 'mystical' actually means.

Hardly. You are simply taken in by woo. That can be very bad for martial artists. This poor man believed his own woo, things do not go well for him:

 

[godnotgod]

Hardly. You are simply taken in by woo. That can be very bad for martial artists. This poor man believed his own woo, things do not go well for him:

That may be the case in this video, but I think you're going way out in left field.

Can you tell me what you think 'mystical' means?

I am just telling you this: there is an unmistakable power present in my hara. It is not woo. It is not delusion. It is real. When I only follow the brain's dictates, I do not feel centered or in tune or balanced . I am calm and peaceful when my hara is in harmony with my body. It is a higher form of consciousness that communicates to me if I am paying attention.

I have added content to the post you responded to that you may find of interest, ie kundalini.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That may be the case in this video, but I think you're going way out in left field.

Can you tell me what you think 'mystical' means?

I am just telling you this: there is an unmistakable power present in my hara. It is not woo. It is not delusion. It is real. When I only follow the brain's dictates, I do not feel centered or in tune or balanced . I am calm and peaceful when my hara is in harmony with my body. It is a higher form of consciousness that communicates to me if I am paying attention.

I have added content to the post you responded to that you may find of interest, ie kundalini.

"Mystical" is usually a catchall term for the unknown. It is not of any real value in a discussion. Worse yet instead of admitting that they do not know people often act as if it were a real thing. I have had a "mystical" experience when sparring once. I was sparring with a better student and felt he could not score on me. And he could not. Now I possibly just relaxed enough so that I was able to stop all of his attacks. One's own mind is often one's worst enemy. But I do not attribute what occurred to some outside forces. And when it comes to "chi" one has to be very careful. There are many frauds and people that fool themselves out there. Aikido is not well respected in the martial art world because its practitioners do not seem to do well when they take their discipline outside of their little group.

 

[gnostic]

So you are saying that, when someone makes the decision to meditate, it is the brain that is actually making that decision, and that the changes that occur to the brain, respiratory system, heart rate, pain, digestion, etc. are also controlled by the brain. If that is the case, why does the brain need consciousness in the form of a self to make that decision, or any decision? Does the brain decide to go biking, or have a martini after work, or go have a pizza on the spur of the moment? How does the brain learn to lie, or crack a joke, or create a scenario to put the make on a woman or a man, and then to top it all off, to sit back and reflect on all those decisions or experiences once it decides to go ahead with them?

You are doing it again.

Can you not use strawman?

If you want some examples from me, then I will provide you some examples, instead of you attacking my position with your pathetic examples that I have no part in them?

I don’t mind if you disagree with me if I presented you my view, but do not profess that you know me, by putting words in my mouth.

Look, you already know that a person have several levels of consciousness. But whatever the levels, it is all part of processes of sensory perceptions that the brain processed whatever one see, feel, hear, touch or smell.

The problem is you thinking that consciousness is some mystical forces or energy. The problem is that you allow the eastern mysticism to cloud your judgement.

 

[gnostic]

That may be the case in this video, but I think you're going way out in left field.

Can you tell me what you think 'mystical' means?

I am just telling you this: there is an unmistakable power present in my hara. It is not woo. It is not delusion. It is real. When I only follow the brain's dictates, I do not feel centered or in tune or balanced . I am calm and peaceful when my hara is in harmony with my body. It is a higher form of consciousness that communicates to me if I am paying attention.

I have added content to the post you responded to that you may find of interest, ie kundalini.

Really?

Now I think you are making some apologetic excuses.

My understanding is that in some of the Hindu epics, like the Ramayana and Mahabharata, that heroes and demons can possessed mystical weapons of the gods, like from Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu, and some of these weapons can be directed by their wills or consciousness, alone, and even less believable, that the weapons themselves might have their own mind and consciousness.

Granted, they are just stories to me, just like the Iliad and Odyssey, or the bible, but to actually believe them to be true, actually is a leap of faith.

What I don’t understand is how you can dismiss the SZ’s video as woo, but your own belief on mystical consciousness are unquestionable, hence not woo.