The Watchmaker Revisited

[Truly Enlightened]

The point is that, whether he knew he lost his keys inside the house or not is not the point. The point is that he's looking for them in the wrong place, the metaphor being that man is looking for the keys to reality outside his own nature, and he's using the wrong tools to do so, namely, the intellect, though it SEEMS to be the correct tool.

Please stop and think about what you are saying. And, then think exactly what you are defending. The hole will only get bigger, and I hope you're wearing boots.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Everything that exists, has existed, or will exist, AS A TOTALITY, is The Absolute, since there is no relative 'other' to which that totality, whatever it is comprised of, known or unkown, can be compared.

The physical Universe is defined as all of space and time[a] (collectively referred to as spacetime) and their contents.[10] Such contents comprise all of energy in its various forms, including electromagnetic radiation and matter, and therefore planets, moons, stars, galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space.[21][22][23] The Universe also includes the physical laws that influence energy and matter, such as conservation laws, classical mechanics, and relativity.

The Universe is often defined as "the totality of existence", or everything that exists, everything that has existed, and everything that will exist.[24] In fact, some philosophers and scientists support the inclusion of ideas and abstract concepts – such as mathematics and logic – in the definition of the Universe.

Synonyms
A term for "universe" among the ancient Greek philosophers from Pythagoras onwards was τὸ πᾶν, tò pân ("the all")...

Universe - Wikipedia

Is the Universe an absolute?. No. Does the Universe represent a totality of all matter and energy that we know of? Yes. Do we know if anything exists OUTSIDE of our Universe? No. Do we know if a Multiverse, multiple-dimensions, or any alternate realities exists? No. Why can't we just say that everything that we know or don't know exist, have existed, or will exist, whether inside or outside this Universe, and just call it an Absolute? Because an absolute represents a limit or a boundary. Your use of the word represents the unbound and the infinite. We do know the limitations of many theoretical concepts, but I'm afraid that ignorance is still not an absolute. So, lumping everything together and calling it an absolute, is still intellectually dishonest. I doesn't matter how well you can copy and paste a collage of selected terms from Google U. Unless you are God and know what exist outside the Universe, and all other possibilities, it is only your opinion, not an absolute.

 

[ecco]

However, that is not what I did. I read your posts. I even read some of your linked articles. They provided all the evidence that any rational person would need to label your posts 'mystical, metaphysical nonsense' and 'woo'.

What evidence?

For just one, your belief that chi is a life force is evidence of your belief in the supernatural.

Google 'chi' and you will find that definitions of chi all point to it as the life force, contrary to what subduction thinks.

Ooops. Once again, you are wrong..
chi1

1. The twenty-second letter of the Greek alphabet ( Χ, χ ), transliterated in the traditional Latin style as ‘ch’ (as in Christ ) or in the modern style as ‘kh’ (as in Khaniá and in the etymologies of this dictionary).

The people who write these definitions must say it that way because they have been indoctrinated ...The writers of the definition of 'chi' is trying to include it with superstition.

But that's not what you implied in your post. You stated "definitions of chi all point to it as the life force". Now you're trying to duck and dodge by saying the definitions are wrong because they are biased because they are written by people who have been "indoctrinated". You keep grasping at straws because your views have no solid foundation.

That might be true if I gave credence to the supernatural, the paranormal, the occult, or pseudoscience, but I do not. The mystical experience is none of those things. It is simply the realization of Oneness with the Universe.

Do you realize that you just admitted a belief in the supernatural? Well, no. Sadly, you probably don't.

woo woo A person readily accepting supernatural, paranormal, occult, or pseudoscientific phenomena, or emotion-based beliefs and explanations.

 

[ecco]

mmmm......I don't entertain a belief in a God having power over nature, so no. I am not into the supernatural.

Nice try, again, at ducking and dodging. Believing that black cats bring bad luck indicates a belief in the Supernatural. No gods involved.


However, you do believe in mystical stuff. You do believe in a chi life force. Therefore, you do believe in the supernatural. All your denials do not change reality.

 

[godnotgod]

Now you are being absurd.

You are just spinning lies, putting words I didn’t say.

I am very well aware that consciousness is required for being “aware” of what I am seeing, what I am hearing, what I am feeling or what I am smelling.

I have not said anything that may have contradicted this or opposed this about consciousness, but I still think the brain that control our consciousnesses.

Every actions, every functions that any part of our body perform, are controlled by our brain, whether we are aware of it or not, and that include our consciousness, our memories, our thoughts and our emotions.

Not of that would exist, including our consciousness, if we didn’t have any brain.

The consciousness doesn’t transcend the brain, because consciousness wouldn’t exist without the brain.

And here is where you get insulting, with your condescending straw man:



I know that this is merely analogy, but do you really think I would not notice the moon, without your stupid finger pointing ahead.

I have seen the moon many times before, day or night, and I am very well aware of the moon existence. I don’t need your finger to point at the moon, to find it.

I am aware of the moon, just as you are aware of it. What it doesn’t require, is your absurdity that it take “ultimate reality” or “pure consciousness” or “transcendence” - to be aware of the moon existence.

Your pointing finger analogy, is just stupid as your other faulty analogies, eg TV signals, the escaped prisoner from a cave.

They are merely analogy, allegory and anecdote, all of which serve no real purpose other than promoting mysticism in the flawed and biased ways.

Surely, you have a better example, then a finger pointing at the moon to demonstrate consciousness, or is that really the best you can come with?

"a finger pointing to the moon" is a Zen metaphor for silently pointing to Reality. The intuitive mind must be awake enough in order to SEE that the statement is not referring to the literal moon.

 

[godnotgod]

Nice try, again, at ducking and dodging. Believing that black cats bring bad luck indicates a belief in the Supernatural. No gods involved.


However, you do believe in mystical stuff. You do believe in a chi life force. Therefore, you do believe in the supernatural. All your denials do not change reality.

You're obviously confused.

Where did I express the belief that black cats bring bad luck?

How does the mystical view imply the supernatural? I use the word 'supernatural' to mean an entity having power over nature. 'Chi' is the power of nature itself.

 

[godnotgod]

But that's not what you implied in your post. You stated "definitions of chi all point to it as the life force". Now you're trying to duck and dodge by saying the definitions are wrong because they are biased because they are written by people who have been "indoctrinated".

Those people state that 'chi is thought to be the life force'. They are indoctrinated by Western science, which says that chi is not provable via scientific means, science being the only valid form of knowledge, in the eyes of the West. Thus, the qualifying statement.

Having said that, modern medicine is now incorporating some aspects of the Eastern healing arts into its practice, such as acupuncture, yoga, and meditation, their efficacy having been proven. Are you aware that some hospitals employ a therapeutic form of yoga to address mental illness, even schizophrenia? I have friends who cannot be helped much by Western medicine, and who have turned to Chinese herbalists, with success, specifically for things like vertigo and shingles.

Do you realize that you just admitted a belief in the supernatural? Well, no. Sadly, you probably don't.

I take a very scientific approach to the supernatural: I neither believe, nor not-believe. The mystical view is not philosophy or religion. It is purely experiential, devoid of belief, like the experience of burning your finger on a hot stove.

 

[Darkstorn]

Those people state that 'chi is thought to be the life force'. They are indoctrinated by Western science, which says that chi is not provable via scientific means, science being the only valid form of knowledge, in the eyes of the West. Thus, the qualifying statement.

Having said that, modern medicine is now incorporating some aspects of the Eastern healing arts into its practice, such as acupuncture, yoga, and meditation, their efficacy having been proven. Are you aware that some hospitals employ a therapeutic form of yoga to address mental illness, even schizophrenia? I have friends who cannot be helped much by Western medicine, and who have turned to Chinese herbalists, with success, specifically for things like vertigo and shingles.



I take a very scientific approach to the supernatural: I neither believe, nor not-believe. The mystical view is not philosophy or religion. It is purely experiential, devoid of belief, like the experience of burning your finger on a hot stove.

Emboldened for emphasis. You should consider a career in comedy. This is genuinely funny. I mean, it's really, really funny that you believe these things.

This literally makes you sound like a caricature of a new-age hippie. You're not the first with the misconception that anything western is bad and everything eastern is automagically good. Because your woo peddler told you.

Anyway, can you return to the original subject of the thread, or could you please make a new one to focus on your stuff? You literally stole this thread and made it about you. You seem to accuse others of being conditioned, but everything here seems to point out that you're suffering from massive ego problems.

This is literally you seeking attention. Why do you have an uncontrollable urge to take other peoples' threads and make them about your silly new-age beliefs about universal consciousness? I think people have been VERY patient with you.

 

[godnotgod]

Please stop and think about what you are saying. And, then think exactly what you are defending. The hole will only get bigger, and I hope you're wearing boots.

Look, forget the metaphor, as you don't get it anyway.

Quite simply, we look for the keys to the true nature of reality outside our own nature, when we already are in possession of those keys. Instead of looking to SEE that we are none other than the very reality we seek, we create a subject/object framework and see ourselves as 'independent observer' of a Universe 'out there', apart from ourselves, an impossibility. It is this mentally contrived framework which prevents us from experiencing the fact of our Oneness with the Universe. You always talk about dishonesty, but it is dishonest to think that we are separate conscious observers of an unconscious and dead universe.

Why should I defend the obvious?

 

[godnotgod]

Emboldened for emphasis. You should consider a career in comedy. This is genuinely funny. I mean, it's really, really funny that you believe these things.

This literally makes you sound like a caricature of a new-age hippie. You're not the first with the misconception that anything western is bad and everything eastern is automagically good. Because your woo peddler told you.

Anyway, can you return to the original subject of the thread, or could you please make a new one to focus on your stuff? You literally stole this thread and made it about you. You seem to accuse others of being conditioned, but everything here seems to point out that you're suffering from massive ego problems.

This is literally you seeking attention. Why do you have an uncontrollable urge to take other peoples' threads and make them about your silly new-age beliefs about universal consciousness? I think people have been VERY patient with you.

Google 'yoga for schizophrenia' for one. Or choose to remain ignorant.

I give credit to the hippies; a lot of credit. They are the pioneers who saw that the nation was going in the wrong direction, and made efforts to humanize their world. Yes, they made a lot of mistakes, some fatal, but out of their efforts came so much more. They saw that we were perpetuating and nurturing an inhumane and unjust society, and rejected it. Mass produced, pesticide and hormone-laden foods were also rejected. Today, organic foods are becoming big business, as is candle-making, stained glass, aroma therapy, essential oils, and hand- tooled belts, though today they are probably machine stamped.

The hippies brought a lot of attention against the Vietnam War, and were instrumental in turning public opinion completely around about a war that was eventually found to be unjustified.

I NEVER said that 'everything Western is bad'. You're lying, and making things up. Either that, or you don't know how to read yet.

Very patient with me? So now what? I go to the stockades along with the hippies by order of der fuehrer?

'my universal consciousness' is an oxymoron.

 

[gnostic]

"a finger pointing to the moon" is a Zen metaphor for silently pointing to Reality. The intuitive mind must be awake enough in order to SEE that the statement is not referring to the literal moon.

Metaphor or not, you wrote:

I never said I was teaching you anything. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Is that what you think? I'm just a finger pointing to the moon, but instead of you looking at the moon, you attack the pointing finger, at the ringing of the proverbial Pavlovian bell, in typical knee-jerk fashion, over and over again. It's become amusing at this point.

What I’ve highlighted is nothing more than straw man.

You presented me with the metaphor as if I cannot see the moon, but just attacking your finger.

That post was directed at me. And it is a dishonest attack.

 

[gnostic]

I take a very scientific approach to the supernatural: I neither believe, nor not-believe.

Science isn’t about what to believe or not believe; what you stating isn’t a “scientific approach”.

The “scientific approach” is about testing a statement, explanation or prediction, that is formulated as together as falsifiable hypothesis.

The testing come from finding evidences or from test results of controlled lab-environment experiments. The evidences need to be at least detectable (or observable), measurable, quantifiable or verifiable, or any combination of the above or all of the above.

The more evidences (or tests performed) you have, the more you can determine whether the hypothesis “probable” or “improbable”.

By letting the evidences to determine outcome of the analysis and conclusion to the hypothesis, is how scientists objectively reach consensus whether the hypothesis is true or not, because it is possible that other scientists can independently perform the experiments or independently find their own evidences that will either back or refute the hypothesis.

That’s the “scientific approach”, the ability to test.

Science deal with “what is probable” or “what is not probable”, not what is possible or impossible.

The weighing of “possible” or “impossible” is the philosophical approach or the religious approach.

Scientists used probability to determine outcome, philosophers, religious people and mystics used personal belief to biasedly support their own agenda.

As to the supernatural.

There are no scientific approach to the supernatural.

Yes, scientists have tried to test the supernatural or the paranormal, but it has failed, and parapsychology (eg remote viewing) have been deemed to be pseudoscience.

The only people making money out of the supernatural and parapsychology, are novelists, tv and movie makers, and con artists (eg Deepak Chopra).

There are no evidences to support the supernatural.

 

[Darkstorn]

Google 'yoga for schizophrenia' for one. Or choose to remain ignorant.

I give credit to the hippies; a lot of credit. They are the pioneers who saw that the nation was going in the wrong direction, and made efforts to humanize their world. Yes, they made a lot of mistakes, some fatal, but out of their efforts came so much more. They saw that we were perpetuating and nurturing an inhumane and unjust society, and rejected it. Mass produced, pesticide and hormone-laden foods were also rejected. Today, organic foods are becoming big business, as is candle-making, stained glass, aroma therapy, essential oils, and hand- tooled belts, though today they are probably machine stamped.

The hippies brought a lot of attention against the Vietnam War, and were instrumental in turning public opinion completely around about a war that was eventually found to be unjustified.

I NEVER said that 'everything Western is bad'. You're lying, and making things up. Either that, or you don't know how to read yet.

Very patient with me? So now what? I go to the stockades along with the hippies by order of der fuehrer?

'my universal consciousness' is an oxymoron.

Your tactic of using obfuscating stupidity doesn't work. I still find your beliefs incredibly funny. And you conveniently ignored the important part of my post. The one that talks about you stealing this thread for your attention seeking purposes.

I find your entire post to be delusional and scraping the barrel. You literally took issue with me badmouthing hippies, but you also conveniently ignored the fact that i was calling you a caricature of one. That's about all i can say.

 

[godnotgod]

Metaphor or not, you wrote:



What I’ve highlighted is nothing more than straw man.

You presented me with the metaphor as if I cannot see the moon, but just attacking your finger.

That post was directed at me. And it is a dishonest attack.

It was directed to how you view the statement. You took 'moon' literally, instead of the metaphor it is for Reality. What is the problem you are having in understanding the meaning? C'mon now. Use your head. Once again:

"a finger pointing to the moon" is a Zen metaphor for silently pointing to Reality. The intuitive mind must be awake enough in order to SEE that the statement is not referring to the literal moon.

 

[godnotgod]

Science isn’t about what to believe or not believe; what you stating isn’t a “scientific approach”.

I never said that it referred to the subject of belief. What I said by 'I neither believe, nor not-believe', is that it is scientific in that it does not make assumptions about what is being observed. When the mind neither believes, nor not-believes, it is then freed from taking a position either way. This applies equally to opinions and conceptualizations.

Why must everything be spelled out to you in black and white? You're not taking the time to reflect on things being said to you, and make up your own story in place of it. Stop. Slow down, and take your time before posting. Otherwise your udders are going to end up all in a bunch, and you might hurt yourself with that sword.

The “scientific approach” is about testing a statement, explanation or prediction, that is formulated as together as falsifiable hypothesis.

The testing come from finding evidences or from test results of controlled lab-environment experiments. The evidences need to be at least detectable (or observable), measurable, quantifiable or verifiable, or any combination of the above or all of the above.

The more evidences (or tests performed) you have, the more you can determine whether the hypothesis “probable” or “improbable”.

By letting the evidences to determine outcome of the analysis and conclusion to the hypothesis, is how scientists objectively reach consensus whether the hypothesis is true or not, because it is possible that other scientists can independently perform the experiments or independently find their own evidences that will either back or refute the hypothesis.

That’s the “scientific approach”, the ability to test.

No, not at all. The approach comes before any testing. Approach is all about your attitude.

Science deal with “what is probable” or “what is not probable”, not what is possible or impossible.

The weighing of “possible” or “impossible” is the philosophical approach or the religious approach.

Scientists used probability to determine outcome, philosophers, religious people and mystics used personal belief to biasedly support their own agenda.

As to the supernatural.

There are no scientific approach to the supernatural.

Yes, scientists have tried to test the supernatural or the paranormal, but it has failed, and parapsychology (eg remote viewing) have been deemed to be pseudoscience.

The only people making money out of the supernatural and parapsychology, are novelists, tv and movie makers, and con artists (eg Deepak Chopra).

There are no evidences to support the supernatural.

The mystical EXPERIENCE is not about the supernatural. The supernatural is about what one believes to be the case; the mystical EXPERIENCE is about what one SEES to be the case. There is no factual evidence to support the mystical experience as it is beyond mere fact.

Are you getting the crucial difference between experience and belief? Between the belief in the supernatural and the mystical experience? No? Watch this to see if it will help you to understand:

People who attend the seminars and live-in programs at the Chopra Center undergo a healing process. They testify to their own spiritual transformation into happier people. Chopra charges $$ for those sessions. He is a medical doctor, an ayurvedist, and a mystic. What are your objections to this?

 

[godnotgod]

Your tactic of using obfuscating stupidity doesn't work. I still find your beliefs incredibly funny. And you conveniently ignored the important part of my post. The one that talks about you stealing this thread for your attention seeking purposes.

I find your entire post to be delusional and scraping the barrel. You literally took issue with me badmouthing hippies, but you also conveniently ignored the fact that i was calling you a caricature of one. That's about all i can say.

Stealing? I am not preventing anyone from freely posting whatever they desire. Do you feel blocked from doing so?

You are laughing? What is it that you find funny, Darkstorn? That the yoga you call 'woo' violates your silly beliefs, and that Western medicine has now found it to be effective in treating schizophrenia, when drugs and other treatments have failed? If you laugh hard enough, maybe your belief system will begin to crumble so you can be free of it. Laughter at one's silliness can be a healing activity. I say go for it.

I certainly do want attention, and that is because I want to post my input for others to see. That is what people do on forums. None of it is about me wanting personal attention. The problem is that you are still attached to the pointing finger, and are failing to see the lovely Moon I consistently point to.

Why are you badmouthing the poor defenseless hippies? They've done nothing wrong to harm you, have they?

You have nothing more to say? Speak, Darkstorn. Say something of substance, instead of viciously attacking the pointing finger. Otherwise, you can always go to your room and sit quietly until the mud settles in the churned up pond of your mind. That will allow you to see things more clearly, to the bottom of the pond, even. I mean, clarity of mind is what we all desire, correct?; especially when we now know that the poor brain is susceptible to easily being deluded, right, Darkstorn?

LOOK, DARKSTORN! THE MOON!...ha ha ha...

edit: In the world of Taoism, it is said that the sage wastes nothing, making use of everything. That is why I just love scraping the bottom of the barrel, Darkstorn. That last little bit is truly telltale, isn't it? You know. What they call the 'nitty-gritty'. What is funny, Darkstorn, is that the physicists think they were going to get to that very nitty-gritty with the discovery of the so-called 'particle'. But they were wrong, Darkstorn! Just think: they have now gone from the pursuit of the 'material particle' to the Quantum Vacuum of 'absolutely nothing'. It is at this point that some of the smarter ones have made a proverbial 'leap of faith' from materialism to a truer understanding of the real Quantum Physics. Not quite there yet, however. Just scratching the surface. Ask any real mystic, whose buddies have been at it for well over 4000 years.

 

[gnostic]

It was directed to how you view the statement. You took 'moon' literally, instead of the metaphor it is for Reality. What is the problem you are having in understanding the meaning? C'mon now. Use your head. Once again:

"a finger pointing to the moon" is a Zen metaphor for silently pointing to Reality. The intuitive mind must be awake enough in order to SEE that the statement is not referring to the literal moon.

It wasn’t the metaphor that I was having problem with. My problem is that you stated I was “attacking” your pointing finger instead of looking at the moon.

You have made it quite clear, I wasn’t looking at the moon whether it be literal moon or not. You stated I was focusing on the pointing finger.

Can you not read and understand your own post? You were using “me” as the source of your post. That’s the straw man, I am talking about, not just your metaphor.

If you had left me out of your condescending reply, I wouldn’t have issue with your metaphor.

 

[Darkstorn]

Stealing? I am not preventing anyone from freely posting whatever they desire. Do you feel blocked from doing so?

But you're not actually allowed to post "whatever you desire."

RF Rules

Notice rules number 4 and 8.

You are laughing? What is it that you find funny, Darkstorn? That the yoga you call 'woo' violates your silly beliefs, and that Western medicine has now found it to be effective in treating schizophrenia, when drugs and other treatments have failed? If you laugh hard enough, maybe your belief system will begin to crumble so you can be free of it. Laughter at one's silliness can be a healing activity. I say go for it.

I certainly do want attention, and that is because I want to post my input. That is what people do on forums. None of it is about me wanting personal attention. You are still attached to the pointing finger, and are failing to see the lovely Moon I consistently point to.

Why are you badmouthing the poor defenseless hippies? They've done nothing wrong to harm you, have they?

You have nothing more to say? Speak, Darkstorn. Say something of substance, instead of viciously attacking the pointing finger. Otherwise, you can always go to your room and sit quietly until the mud settles in the churned up pond of your mind. That will allow you to see things more clearly, to the bottom of the pond, even. I mean, clarity of mind is what we all desire, correct?; especially when we now know that the poor brain is susceptible to easily being deluded, right?

Why do you waste this much effort into rationalizing your breaking the forum rules?

You are proselytizing and being off-topic in a thread about the watchmaker argument. Not once have you discussed the original topic. All you ever did was shift the topic into being about your worldview and philosophy.

Can i expect an equally long dodge the next time? If you want to waste this much time, how about you actually address the two posts of mine that you conveniently ignored? Or would that go against your philosophy of not actually answering the difficult questions.

By the way, i emphasized the parts which i find funny, silly, sad, delusional or pathetic. I'll let you decide which ones are which. It should tell you something that you're still trying to use rationalization and reasoning to make people abandon rationality and reason and "just see."

While i find your melodrama amusing, it's starting to wear thin. It almost looks like a defensive mechanism.

edit: In the world of Taoism, it is said that the sage wastes nothing, making use of everything. That is why I just love scraping the bottom of the barrel, Darkstorn. That last little bit is truly telltale, isn't it? You know. What they call the 'nitty-gritty'. What is funny, Darkstorn, is that the physicists think they were going to get to that very nitty-gritty with the discovery of the so-called 'particle'. But they were wrong, Darkstorn! Just think: they have now gone from the pursuit of the 'material particle' to the Quantum Vacuum of 'absolutely nothing'. It is at this point that some of the smarter ones have made a proverbial 'leap of faith' from materialism to a truer understanding of the real Quantum Physics. Not quite there yet, however. Just scratching the surface. Ask any real mystic, whose buddies have been at it for well over 4000 years.

Yeah... THAT's the funny thing here, alright. Instead of, you know, everything in this edit.

 

[gnostic]

I never said that it referred to the subject of belief. What I said by 'I neither believe, nor not-believe', is that it is scientific in that it does not make assumptions about what is being observed. When the mind neither believes, nor not-believes, it is then freed from taking a position either way. This applies equally to opinions and conceptualizations.

It isn’t a “scientific approach”.

The hallmark of science is not just about knowledge, but how to objectively testing that knowledge, godnotgod.

Science require both knowledge and testing, not one or the other.

If you only have knowledge, but no testing or no verification, then that’s merely you expressing your opinion, that’s all. Opinions come in a dime a dozen.

And if you do testing, without knowledge, then you are not understanding the purpose of the phenomena.

Saying “I neither believe, nor I not-believe” isn’t scientific at all, it just a statement, that you haven’t decided yet.

There are only two main types of question natural science are interested in, the WHAT and the HOW.

Some generic questions a scientist may ask:

• WHAT is this phenomena?
• WHAT are the properties or characteristics of that phenomena?
• HOW does it work?
• WHAT use can it have?
• HOW would you use it?

The last two questions are concerned with possible applications.

There are no WHO questions.

And the WHY questions are secondary, and to me not at all important because once, once you have understanding of WHAT and HOW, the WHY have already being answered.

The WHY is mainly important for those who are in social science or in philosophies.

Your approach has nothing to do with science, so don’t pretend that it does.

 

[gnostic]

It was directed to how you view the statement. You took 'moon' literally, instead of the metaphor it is for Reality. What is the problem you are having in understanding the meaning? C'mon now. Use your head. Once again:

"a finger pointing to the moon" is a Zen metaphor for silently pointing to Reality. The intuitive mind must be awake enough in order to SEE that the statement is not referring to the literal moon.

You seem to be forgetting why you brought up the Zen metaphor up in the first place.

We were arguing over your use of the analogies, eg burning hand or fingers on the stove and your escaped prisoner of Plato's Cave and seeing the sun for the first time.

I criticized both of these examples as limited and flawed, plus both of them were just normal experiences or normal reactions, not "mystical experiences". My points were that neither of them have anything do with "transcendence".

That's when you brought up me attacking the pointing finger instead of looking at the moon.