The Water Below and Above the Expanse

[Subduction Zone]

Genesis wasn't written by God, it was, of course, written by Moses. You are making claims that I do not believe to be true. Moses did not have printing presses available so he wrote on whatever they wrote on back then. There are many things that happened in history that are not recorded and have been purposely avoided. Thus the actual event is not recorded, some avoid reporting defeats. Some people can never accept fault or defeat.

Moses appears to be a fictional character of the Bible. Did you know that The Hobbit was not written by JRR Tolkien? It was written by Bilbo Baggins. The Lord of the Rings goes into a bit of detail of how he did that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Moses appears to be a fictional character of the Bible. Did you know that The Hobbit was not written by JRR Tolkien? It was written by Bilbo Baggins. The Lord of the Rings goes into a bit of detail of how he did that.

I know what some will say about Moses and the Bible. I do not agree that Moses was a fictional character, although there are some astounding events that happened that I certainly cannot explain. I do not contest them, however. In the meantime, I'll say that some people and influential persons cannot or will not admit defeat or guilt, attempting to make themselves look perfect. If they could at present, it is clear they would remove all references to any guilt or embarrassment they might have encountered. References to the past realities are scanty, but we do have the Bible that has been kept over many centuries. Before the printing press.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know what some will say about Moses and the Bible. I do not agree that Moses was a fictional character, although there are some astounding events that happened that I certainly cannot explain. I do not contest them, however. In the meantime, I'll say that some people and influential persons cannot or will not admit defeat or guilt, attempting to make themselves look perfect. If they could at present, it is clear they would remove all references to any guilt or embarrassment they might have encountered. References to the past realities are scanty, but we do have the Bible that has been kept over many centuries. Before the printing press.

You should be asking people how they know that Moses is a fictional character. You could also try to learn how scholars determined at what time various books of the Bible were written. Using the ostrich defense only makes a person look rather sad.

 

[YoursTrue]

You should be asking people how they know that Moses is a fictional character. You could also try to learn how scholars determined at what time various books of the Bible were written. Using the ostrich defense only makes a person look rather sad.

I don't need to go to scholars who oppose the veracity of the Bible. Life itself tells us that people hide things.And records surely may have been destroyed if ever the truth were written.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't need to go to scholars who oppose the veracity of the Bible. Life itself tells us that people hide things.And records surely may have been destroyed if ever the truth were written.

So what? That does not help you.

 

[gnostic]

I know what some will say about Moses and the Bible. I do not agree that Moses was a fictional character, although there are some astounding events that happened that I certainly cannot explain. I do not contest them, however. In the meantime, I'll say that some people and influential persons cannot or will not admit defeat or guilt, attempting to make themselves look perfect. If they could at present, it is clear they would remove all references to any guilt or embarrassment they might have encountered. References to the past realities are scanty, but we do have the Bible that has been kept over many centuries. Before the printing press.

Look, YoursTrue.

if Moses was a real historical person and the author of Exodus, Numbers & Leviticus, and not Deuteronomy, how is that he could not name princess and her father, the king? He was supposedly adopted by the princess, therefore part of royalty.

And how is that he couldn’t name the contemporary king, when Moses led the Israelites out of Rameses?

I don’t King Solomon was historical figure too, but in 1 Kings 6:1, the year he supposedly started building the Temple (in his 4th year), it say that Israelites left Egypt 480 years earlier, so we could estimate roughly the time of this “exodus”.

So 967 (Solomon’s 4th year) + 480 years = 1447 BCE. That would mean the king ruling at the time of Exodus 12:37 should be Thutmose III (reign 1479 -1425 BCE). And if Moses was born in 1527 BCE, then the king contemporary to him would Ahmose I (1550 - 1525 BCE), the founder of the famous 18th dynasty of Egypt.

Both Ahmose and Thutmose were well known kings in this dynasty as Ahmose was responsible for expelling the Hyksos from Egypt. And Thutmose was responsible for expansion policy, an empire where he conquered Nubia (Sudan), Libya and Syria (which would also include Canaan).

Syria and Canaan were still part of empire in Thutmose’s son’s reign, Amenhotep II (425 - 1401 BCE), a time supposedly Joshua captured Jericho after Moses’ death (In 1447 bce). And that being so, I would hardly doubt that Amenhotep would let Joshua and Israelites conquer Canaan without a fight. Amenhotep’s stelae make no mention of Israelites in Canaan.

the points that contemporary writings were existed in their reigns, including Ahmose’s 2 daughters, Sitamun and Meritamun, and the children they have with their brother, who succeeded Ahmose. Their names are inscribed on stone stelae and elsewhere, as well as their achievements.

If Moses was adopted he would have been named, but there are no records of him existing in Egyptian sources. And likewise, how can be adopted without knowing the name of the king and princess?

Plus, Rameses or Pi-Ramesses was never built until the reigns of Seti and Ramesses II, kings of the 19th dynasty in the 13th century BCE.

the fact is that whoever wrote the Exodus were completely clueless about the real Egyptian history, because Exodus wasn’t a contemporary source. Exodus as a text, didn’t exist until the 6th century BCE, so Moses didn’t write the Exodus and other works that have been traditionally attributed to him (including Genesis). That would explain why the authors knew no names of Egyptian kings in Genesis (eg Abraham & Joseph) and in Exodus.

Joseph was supposedly the 2nd most powerful person in Egypt during the time of famine (appointed by the king himself), and yet like in the Exodus, the pharaoh was nameless.

 

[Eli G]

The names of the Egyptian pharaohs who were in power at the time of Joseph and at the time of Moses are of no interest to the Israelites who left Egypt, much less has anything to do at all with the reason why the books of Genesis or Exodus were written.

Egyptologists don't know much about the Egyptian pharaohs, and they even have different datings for different dynasties. That matter is of no concern to ordinary people, much less to the Israelites who left Egypt and started their lives again... They had too much business to attend to to worry about what they had left behind.

The Bible was not written for historians, but for the servants of God. Even if the Bible included the names of these pharaohs, would it be of any use to historians who deny even the historicity of Moses as the leader of the Israelites when they went out of Egypt?

 

[The Hammer]

The names of the Egyptian pharaohs who were in power at the time of Joseph and at the time of Moses are of no interest to the Israelites who left Egypt, much less has anything to do at all with the reason why the books of Genesis or Exodus were written.

Egyptologists don't know much about the Egyptian pharaohs, and they even have different datings for different dynasties. That matter is of no concern to ordinary people, much less to the Israelites who left Egypt and started their lives again... They had too much business to attend to to worry about what they had left behind.

The Bible was not written for historians, but for the servants of God. Even if the Bible included the names of these pharaohs, would it be of any use to historians who deny even the historicity of Moses as the leader of the Israelites when they went out of Egypt?

We're pretty sure we know when the Israelites left Egypt. Maybe you should return to debating evolution lmao..

The Exodus: Fact or Fiction?

Is the Biblical Exodus fact or fiction? Scholars and archaeologists argue about aspects of Israel’s Exodus but many agree it occurred.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

 

[Eli G]

We're pretty sure we know when the Israelites left Egypt. ...

I don't know who you call "we"... But I'm glad "YOU" know.

 

[The Hammer]

I don't know who you call "we"... But I'm glad "YOU" know.

.I didn't know you had issues with the usage of a royal "we".

Seems like your English language is limited. Apologies, I'll dumb it down.

Edit: Royal we - Wikipedia

 

[YoursTrue]

So what? That does not help you.

Let me put it to you this way: I am satisfied with the Bible. I have been helped greatly because of my belief in God and His promises.

 

[YoursTrue]

Look, YoursTrue.

if Moses was a real historical person and the author of Exodus, Numbers & Leviticus, and not Deuteronomy, how is that he could not name princess and her father, the king? He was supposedly adopted by the princess, therefore part of royalty.

And how is that he couldn’t name the contemporary king, when Moses led the Israelites out of Rameses?

I don’t King Solomon was historical figure too, but in 1 Kings 6:1, the year he supposedly started building the Temple (in his 4th year), it say that Israelites left Egypt 480 years earlier, so we could estimate roughly the time of this “exodus”.

So 967 (Solomon’s 4th year) + 480 years = 1447 BCE. That would mean the king ruling at the time of Exodus 12:37 should be Thutmose III (reign 1479 -1425 BCE). And if Moses was born in 1527 BCE, then the king contemporary to him would Ahmose I (1550 - 1525 BCE), the founder of the famous 18th dynasty of Egypt.

Both Ahmose and Thutmose were well known kings in this dynasty as Ahmose was responsible for expelling the Hyksos from Egypt. And Thutmose was responsible for expansion policy, an empire where he conquered Nubia (Sudan), Libya and Syria (which would also include Canaan).

Syria and Canaan were still part of empire in Thutmose’s son’s reign, Amenhotep II (425 - 1401 BCE), a time supposedly Joshua captured Jericho after Moses’ death (In 1447 bce). And that being so, I would hardly doubt that Amenhotep would let Joshua and Israelites conquer Canaan without a fight. Amenhotep’s stelae make no mention of Israelites in Canaan.

the points that contemporary writings were existed in their reigns, including Ahmose’s 2 daughters, Sitamun and Meritamun, and the children they have with their brother, who succeeded Ahmose. Their names are inscribed on stone stelae and elsewhere, as well as their achievements.

If Moses was adopted he would have been named, but there are no records of him existing in Egyptian sources. And likewise, how can be adopted without knowing the name of the king and princess?

Plus, Rameses or Pi-Ramesses was never built until the reigns of Seti and Ramesses II, kings of the 19th dynasty in the 13th century BCE.

the fact is that whoever wrote the Exodus were completely clueless about the real Egyptian history, because Exodus wasn’t a contemporary source. Exodus as a text, didn’t exist until the 6th century BCE, so Moses didn’t write the Exodus and other works that have been traditionally attributed to him (including Genesis). That would explain why the authors knew no names of Egyptian kings in Genesis (eg Abraham & Joseph) and in Exodus.

Joseph was supposedly the 2nd most powerful person in Egypt during the time of famine (appointed by the king himself), and yet like in the Exodus, the pharaoh was nameless.

Offhand I can't answer your questions. I can offer a guess, but I'd rather not. Because maybe I'd be right and maybe I'd be wrong.

 

[shunyadragon]

We're pretty sure we know when the Israelites left Egypt. Maybe you should return to debating evolution lmao..

The Exodus: Fact or Fiction?

Is the Biblical Exodus fact or fiction? Scholars and archaeologists argue about aspects of Israel’s Exodus but many agree it occurred.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

The above does not document the Exodus or Moses just some aspects of Egyptian records and Stells that at best there were Hebrew and Canaanite slaves in Egypt, and some left. Dtella mentioning the existence of Hebrew pastoral tribes in the Hills of Judah is not remotely evidence of Moses or Exodus.

Back to the Noah Flood. It is simply physically impossible.

 

[The Hammer]

The above does not document the Exodus or Moses just some aspects of Egyptian records and Stells that at best there were Hebrew and Canaanite slaves in Egypt, and some left.

K

 

[gnostic]

The names of the Egyptian pharaohs who were in power at the time of Joseph and at the time of Moses are of no interest to the Israelites who left Egypt, much less has anything to do at all with the reason why the books of Genesis or Exodus were written.

Egyptologists don't know much about the Egyptian pharaohs, and they even have different datings for different dynasties. That matter is of no concern to ordinary people, much less to the Israelites who left Egypt and started their lives again... They had too much business to attend to to worry about what they had left behind.

The Bible was not written for historians, but for the servants of God. Even if the Bible included the names of these pharaohs, would it be of any use to historians who deny even the historicity of Moses as the leader of the Israelites when they went out of Egypt?

excuse me, Eli, but you can verify Egyptian kings from contemporary writings of respective kings, during the 18th and 19th dynasties, from the second half of 2nd millennium BCE.

But you cannot do the same with that of Moses and Joshua In that same half of that millennium, as there are no Late Bronze Age inscriptions that mention them anywhere in Canaan, especially in the royal archive at Megiddo, where there hundreds of clay tablets written in ancient Canaanite cuneiform. There are also no mentions of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the first half of 2nd millennium BCE (2000 - 1500 BCE).

there are no verifications & justifications for these mythological figures from Abraham to Joshua, just stories written from 600 BCE and later.

It is funny how you say, their names (referring to Egyptian rulers of the times that both Genesis and Exodus) are not important and yet why were these stories of Abraham, Joseph and Moses, set in Egypt in the first place?

Genesis can name some nonexistent king name, Melchizedek (Genesis 14), but cannot actual kings ruling at the times of Joseph and Moses.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let me put it to you this way: I am satisfied with the Bible. I have been helped greatly because of my belief in God and His promises.

The Old Testament should not make any difference for how the Bible may have helped you. Too bad that you refuse to learn how you are claiming that God is a liar.

 

[Eli G]

The exodus occurred in 1513 BC.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The exodus occurred in 1513 BC.

Really? And your evidence for that is . . . ?

 

[Tamino]

The names of the Egyptian pharaohs who were in power at the time of Joseph and at the time of Moses are of no interest to the Israelites who left Egypt, much less has anything to do at all with the reason why the books of Genesis or Exodus were written.

Weeellll, consider that in this time, the name of the king was vital for chronology. Years were counted by regnal years of the king.
If a large number of Israelites were living in Egypt, they would have heard the name of the king whenever someone mentioned a date.

Egyptologists don't know much about the Egyptian pharaohs,

Oh, trust me, we know lots.

and they even have different datings for different dynasties.

We have a pretty tight relative chronology for the New Kingdom, anchored not just by carbon dating, but also by a Sothis Date and the Thera eruption. The Middle Kingdom is more tricky, due to the possible dual Kingships (a crown prince ruling alongside his father)

. Even if the Bible included the names of these pharaohs, would it be of any use to historians

Absolutely. A name would be extremely helpful to pinpoint historical dimensions of the exodus narrative.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Genesis 1

According to chapter one of Genesis, there is an expanse that separates water from water as follows:
(Bold emphasis ours)

Kind of stating the obvious here, but creation myths are an abysmal source for scientific claims. If you want to say something scientifically sound, you have to actually use scientific method. Does it make sense to you if I use the Hopi Creation Myth to determine facts about the world? Maybe Spider Woman really exists? Because you are making the identical error.