the Way

[the_Unknown]

Hi.

There really is no need to introduce myself - what little I have to say should be enough.

Talking about taoism seems so redundant and useless.

Every question I can think of to ask the answer comes to me quickly.

Even the Tao Te Ching (a simple text to begin with) is nothing but reiteration after reiteration of the same principles.

It is so obvious everywhere and in everything.

It is the nature of reality.

Even at my work, a young rude and obnoxious girl notices it.

I remember her talking about why everything has to do with sex. A pencil into a pencil sharpener, a faucet spout that leaks water into the sink and down the drain, etc.

The Tao cannot be escaped or hidden.

Yet, here I am.

I do not follow the simplicity of taoism in my work, studies, art, or relations with people and I am miserable because of it.

Am I the same as a glutton who continues to stuff their face with food even though they bloat themselves?

Like a pervert who can't control his sexual nature?

Or like a perhaps a man who beats his wife simply because he can?

I really don't feel like I have much self control.

I don't know why I continue to do the things that I do even though I know it makes me miserable and that I shouldn't.

I wonder how long will I have to be miserable before I realize I'm on the path and not simply admiring it.

In the end, I suppose the answer will be found in nature.

You cannot force a flower to bloom - it does so when it is ready.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Ahh, 'The good that I would, I do not.' Greetings fellow human. I'm not meant to be posting but I couldn't resist...

Firstly, you sound depressed; it's the sense of fatalism in your post. It's quite possible that you are and that's worth keeping in mind. If so, what factors could have contributed to that I wonder? And what could be done about them? It would need to be addressed before anything else.

Secondly things are as they are and unfold as they do; yet they are not what we think they are or unfold as we expect them. In short, you're not a flower! Perhaps the Tao that seems so obvious isn't really so obvious, but it is always open. If you're feeling stuck let go of what you know and try something different.

Say some more about your situation.

 

[the_Unknown]

Depressions and fatalistic ideals are complexities I've moved beyond.

It's just that anything that can or will be expressed of the tao has already been done so many times.

Anything you can or do say is based on reality and because we share the same reality, you cannot offer anything 'new', 'fresh', 'original', 'creative' or any other pointless buzzword flying around.

What many people see as 'their life' is simply points on a graph that is reality.

Reality isn't where x and y intersect, but the intangiable substance behind the fact that x and y can apparently exist at all.

Where there is nothing there is something, and that something is nothing.

All is a cricle.
It begins where it ends.

The opposing extremes are so closely linked.

Fear and hope oppose one another.
When fear fails there is relief, but when hope fails there is despair.

Having fear or hope is to live, and to live is to die.

To succeed one must fail.
To fail, one must succeed.

The greatest anyone can ever achieve is to recognize the stalemate.
The worst anyone can ever achieve is to not recognize the stalemate.

I am as much a flower as I am not one.
As I am or am not anything.

All that can be done is to reiterate the Tao because the Tao is true.

It is not my situation but the situation.

 

[Master Vigil]

Have you looked into Zen Buddhism? Much of what you say follows very much in that aspect.

As for a Taoist perspective of what you are talking about, the only thing that comes to mind is a story I was told by my grandmaster several years ago. It goes somewhat like this...

Trees grow to immense sizes, and weeds only grow a little. But it's easy to kill a tree, and not so easy to kill a weed. Why is it harder to kill a nuisance than it is to kill something we need? Because Tao doesn't operate based on our needs or desires. It operates completely indifferent to us, and thus we need to operate indifferent to ourselves. And when we do, oneness will be achieved.

Not sure if that makes any sense, but it's what I thought of.

 

[the_Unknown]

Yes, indifference is the key.

Difficulty appears because of a lack of indifference.

Do not bother with names or any other means of classification or discrimination.

Look at everything as it really is: the same.

Do good to all and abandon the illusion of other paths.

Indifference is the key.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Indifference...I guess that's about right, though feeling somewhat indifferent about it. :sarcastic

This might be off the mark, but typically there is a period of transition from first becoming aware of the essential emptiness of things to maintaining and adjusting to life with that awareness. Previously things could seem like an endless game of chess compulsively played under the illusion that its possible to win. Then when neurotic suffering is (at least temporarily) ceased by abandoning the game, usually by accident or because it is realised as meaningless, the old psychic forces that could be relied upon to create some kind of motivation are undermined. Living without being driven like a slave by a tumultuous mind (and indeed, the over-mind of society) is like waking up in the same world yet everything is different, you have to start all over again.

If that wasn't enough old habits die hard, the commitment needed to 'put it all down' from one moment to the next (and forever) is considerable. Pointless going back, but going forward can be prevented through hesitation. This can end up a kind of apathetic limbo, and I'm told its common to give up during this (I certainly did for several years). Does this sound at all familiar?

Ran out of time, darn.

 

[the_Unknown]

Confusion.

The illusion of ying and yang creates it.

Reality is an infinite fractal of polaraties.

The fragmented self sees the fragmented reality.

The whole self sees the whole reality.

Yet polaraties mirror traits in one another.

So the whole self sees the fragmented self and
the fragmented self sees the whole self.

When balance is found the complete self is revealed in the comple reality - that which is truth.

Between hot and cold is warm.

It can always be infinitely hotter or infinitely colder.

Yet the fragmented self says this is hot or this is cold.

In truth, all is warm.

Whereever we are,
the fragmented self says,
there is high and low.

Yet whereever we are it can be infintely higher or infinitely lower.

In truth, all is on the same plane.

The fragmented self says this is full and this is empty.

Yet we can always find more and more to put into full things by compressing the contents.

And no matter how clean and empty we attempt to make things, there is still something there.

In truth there is no empty or full - there simply is.

Time is an illusion created by movement and space.

Movement is an illusion created by space.
Space is an illusion created by movement.

All differences or imbalances are illusions created by the illusion of an imbalanced self.

Errors are only errors to those who desire to see something else.
The desire creates the illusion.

Between ying and yang is truth.

Truth cannot change.

Otherwise it would be false.

By this virtue of truth
all of reality is revealed.

Revealed as truth.

Complete and unchanging.

Perfect and eternal.

 

[ChrisP]

What comes naturally is the way? you can become indifferent and observe the way, or you can do what comes naturally like feeling and loving and become one with it.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

What comes naturally is the way. Hmmm. Indifference. Hmmm. I've lost the plot so I'm going to go off-topic. :tsk:

ChrisP when I woke up this morning I was aware of a conflict. I didn't have the chance to get that much sleep and it was very cold in the house, so I wanted to go back to sleep and keep warm. I also had a great many things to do today, so I also wanted to get up and brave the cold. Now this difference of interests was real in as far as my mind was weighing up the pros and cons of a plan of action. It decided on getting up but made a mental note to get an early night.

Contrasting the above with the words of The Hsin Hsin Ming the state of my mind certainly did not seem in accordance with the way. However, as soon as the decision was made I could let go of the conflict and get down to work, and then it returned to a state more in accordance with the way.

I find that with sufficient meditation, or other undisturbed action, dual-mind collapses into one-mind and sense of conflict ceases. This is very good but conflict is bound to arise at some point because there are potentially endless deviations of the way, both within and without (though this division ceases to have meaning when dual-mind collapses of course). If this was not the case the way would not be endless itself. Anyway, to state that 'conflicts between longing and loathing are a disease of the mind' is quite useless unless action is taken to put an end to the disease. Continuous vigilance is required to bring the mind back to accordance with the way and sustain it there.

When someone of great skill does what they do they can give the impression of effortless action, as if the thing does itself, and this is what it can feel like to the person. What you don't see is the training that was required to get that Wu-Wei-like quality and the ongoing training that is required to maintain/expand it. For instance the apparent harmony, diversity, power and beauty of the living world is the result of millions of years of evolution by natural selection that is ongoing without end.

What concerned me was The_Unknown said he/she continued to do things that made them miserable. This I can definitely personally relate to, from moment to moment that is what I am trying to sort out yet I was mistaken in thinking I could enter into a useful dialogue about the practicalities of their situation, and so perhaps shed light on my own. Instead I was reminded of The_Unknown's original nature since they talk a lot of rubbish and so do I. 'Life is thus. Death is thus. Gata or no Gata, what's the fuss?' We are so all one.:dan:

So, that conflict is over and I can let it go and return to my lurker status i.e. doing some work.

 

[ChrisP]

S_W (man I'm glad you're around)

When you say dual-mind you are referring to heart and mind when they are seperated?

I agree with what you have said, my concern for Unknown is similar. Feeling is a natural part of being human and must be allowed to occur in the heart/mind. All things are of the Way, emotion included.

 

[the_Unknown]

Effortless skill springs forth from nothingness.

Without intention,
actions are free to carry out themselves.

Lost within indifference,
unlimited virtue manifests.

Remember, not acting is more powerful then acting can ever be.

The greatest warrior will always be less virtuous
then the man who need not ever concern himself with battle.

Contentment.

All things naturally seem to balance out and fall into harmony.
This harmony is the true way things are.

All things are balanced - nothing can be destroyed or created.

See beyond yourself and accept reality.

Then, the fruits of contentment will be yours.

==================================

All miseries to which I attribute to myself are fruits of my confusion.

The tao is experienced in every way of life.

All things descend from one.
And so, all skills too descend from one.

The skill by which you may master reality.

And with it,
all things therein.

But to sit and dream of the Tao.
Is the same to sit and dream of anything else.

You may imagine yourself doing many things in life.
To actually take action is another matter.

But here, we must first shed our intents and expectations.

For this is not truly an action.

It is letting go.

Let go, and do not seek refuge.

If you displace your desire to hold,
from one thing to another,
then you are still acting.

------------------------------------------------------------
This is the significance of breathing exercise.

If practiced properly, it is the simplest form of balancing ying and yang.

Your greatest obstacle is your logical mind - it wishes to complicate the matter further.

Do not give it reason or doubt.

Do not attempt to find ways to improve or make it more powerful.

Accept it as is.

Breathe in - ying.

Breathe out - yang.

Balance breathing in with breathing out.

Ease into holding your breath inbetween.

Ying forms into yang .

Yang into ying.

Between them, nothingness.

Naturally, effortlessly.

Your mind will put forth the illusion of improvement.

You may think yourself to have better breath controls, or awarenes, or power and stive for this.

But none of this matters because you have not realized the Tao.

Your thoughts betray you.

If you were to truly realize the Tao,
your breathing would cease.

Time and space will vanish.

Ying and yang reveal themselves to you as illusions.

There is no longer a need to indulge in them.

For balance has finally been met.

The self is discarded.

Eternity emerges.

The true power of the Tao.

Unity with perfection.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Hah! Unknown that was a great post, great poetic clarity. You're obviously finding your feet here.

ChrisP dual-mind can be division between heart & mind yeah. Also mind & body, individual & collective, personal and impersonal, good & evil, etc. When we think we conceptualise the world by discriminating between things. While useful, extremely useful even, it has a tendency to escalate in a kind of closed feed-back loop that dominates perception. So, we make models of reality then end up mistaking those models for reality itself, thus trapping ourselves in them like oblivious prisoners to our own artificial confinement.

Although haunted by a deep sense that there is some underlying reality that is now somehow separate from us, trying to get back to that fundamental unity of things becomes neigh on impossible since the mind is so habitually lost in its own machinations. It goes round and round in circles trying to get back what it is missing, imagining it might be found in all sorts of things that seem real but are themselves distorted reflections. i.e. ideas of God, Tao, Buddha, utopia, perfection, happily ever after, etc.

When all one can see are reflections then to give them up (it must be all of them) can feel like the very thing we are trying to avoid - like losing the few shattered shards we have of what is worth living for! This is the great tragic mother of human anguish. Unknown's post alludes to the way to liberate her. What the mind really needs is to stop, cease its mania. Then dual-mind falls away and original nature is revealed. In my opinion the heart of Chan Taoism is composed of strategies/techniques to return to this, to keep doing so, and slowly make it the basis for living.

I'm running out of time again so I'll just quote something regarding emotion:-

"Zen does not teach to destroy all the impulses, instincts, and affective factors that make up the human heart; it only teaches to clear up our intellectual insight from erroneous discriminations and unjustifiable assertions; for when this is done, the heart knows by itself how to work out its native virtues." - D.T.Suzuki

Sorry to keep throwing Zen stuff at the Tao section here.

 

[PureX]

The Tao isn't something we can or need to learn. It just is. But it is something we can practice embodying.

Perhaps begin by letting go of everything else, and just practice sitting and breathing. Breathing is part of the Tao of Man. We don't have to learn how to breath. We do it automatically. Yet we can practice consciously finding the joy inherent of breathing.

Each breath is a gift of life, and can be the source of very real and honestly experienced joy. All it takes is for you to practice at sitting quiet, and at consciously enjoying the pleasure of breathing in, and then out. Do this each day for 10 minutes for two weeks, and I will gaurantee that by the end of those two weeks you will find yourself enjoying just being human, automatically, at various points throughout the day.

Then try practicing at enjoying other aspects of the "Tao of Man", like yawning, or stretching. You'll be amazed at how wonderful it feels to yawn a great big yawn, or to stretch your body's muscles out in the morning, once you begin to pay attention to these actions.

If you are reading the Tao te Ching, and understand what you're reading, then you must recognize that the Tao isn't about knowing, or doing, it's about being.

51

Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.

The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things.

- from the Tao te Ching​

 

[the_Unknown]

The Tao is reality.

Reality is simple.

Complexities are not real.

All apparent complexities are made of simplicity.

Call it the tao, zen, or whatever you wish to call reality.

Giving it a name misleads the entirety of its nature.

All things are beings.

But to truly see and accept ourselves as beings,
we must see ourselves as not being.

The only point of knowledge or learning,
is to realize how pointless it is.

Contentment and indifference are the key.

Tao of Man, Tao of Duck, Tao of Rock?

I only see the Tao.