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The Western-Centric, Racist Myopia Among the Regressive Left

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Before my best friend, a white European, left for her country over a year ago, we always felt a degree of unsafety and discomfort while walking Egyptian streets together.

The reason? Aside from the fact that Egypt has a sexual harassment pandemic, my friend's being white caused her to be the subject of even more unwanted attention: blondes with colored eyes are especially fetishized among many Egyptian men, and she was no exception.

On top of the constant discomfort she experienced while walking down the street--to the point where she couldn't use public transportation alone due to the harassment--she was also scammed while visiting some tourist attractions, much like many other foreigners who aren't well-acquainted with the local prices and usual tricks of scammers. She often had an Egyptian (whether her husband or someone else) accompany her when outside as a result of all of these issues.

Make no mistake: Egypt also has a racism problem against black people, so my friend's gender- and race-based ordeals are far from unique. Furthermore, a passport from a developed country, especially the U.S. and Europe, carries a lot of weight in Egypt, so she would have at least had her EU nationality backing her up if she had ever needed to escalate things on a legal level. This privilege, however, is based on one's passport, not on their skin color or gender--both of which proved to be factors against her multiple times in Egypt.

The idea that white people sit atop a hierarchy of privilege seems to me fundamentally myopic when applied on a global scale, at least if we're talking about average people rather than those who possess power or wealth. In Saudi Arabia, Saudi millionaires possess extreme and inhumane amounts of privilege over foreign workers--especially those from other parts of Asia and the Arab world. In Egypt, many brown people fetishize white people and mock or discriminate against black people. In the U.S., white supremacists have seemingly become more vocal in recent years, with some among the left mistakenly believing that Western-centric, racist generaliziations about white people are the answer to this problem.

Under the banner of pursuing racial equality--and, in reality for some people nowadays, political points among their political camp--we are seeing racist oversimplifications, mollycoddling of minorities as a default stance even when it is not warranted or healthy, and scapegoating of one racial group or another to further political goals. But it seems to me the most important thing to remember is this: racial issues extremely vary from one country to another, and it is beyond myopic to assume a specific race are the primary oppressors in general just because some of them are oppressors within one's country or region.

After all, politically correct racism is still indeed racism, whether or not ideologues and political hatemongers admit this. Classifying white people as a universally privileged and ignorant racial group is no less racist than doing the same to Arabs or black people, and vice versa.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Before my best friend, a white European, left for her country over a year ago, we always felt a degree of unsafety and discomfort while walking Egyptian streets together.

The reason? Aside from the fact that Egypt has a sexual harassment pandemic, my friend's being white caused her to be the subject of even more unwanted attention: blondes with colored eyes are especially fetishized among many Egyptian men, and she was no exception.

On top of the constant discomfort she experienced while walking down the street--to the point where she couldn't use public transportation alone due to the harassment--she was also scammed while visiting some tourist attractions, much like many other foreigners who aren't well-acquainted with the local prices and usual tricks of scammers. She often had an Egyptian (whether her husband or someone else) accompany her when outside as a result of all of these issues.

Make no mistake: Egypt also has a racism problem against black people, so my friend's gender- and race-based ordeals are far from unique. Furthermore, a passport from a developed country, especially the U.S. and Europe, carries a lot of weight in Egypt, so she would have at least had her EU nationality backing her up if she had ever needed to escalate things on a legal level. This privilege, however, is based on one's passport, not on their skin color or gender--both of which proved to be factors against her multiple times in Egypt.

The idea that white people sit atop a hierarchy of privilege seems to me fundamentally myopic when applied on a global scale, at least if we're talking about average people rather than those who possess power or wealth. In Saudi Arabia, Saudi millionaires possess extreme and inhumane amounts of privilege over foreign workers--especially those from other parts of Asia and the Arab world. In Egypt, many brown people fetishize white people and mock or discriminate against black people. In the U.S., white supremacists have seemingly become more vocal in recent years, with some among the left mistakenly believing that Western-centric, racist generaliziations about white people are the answer to this problem.

Under the banner of pursuing racial equality--and, in reality for some people nowadays, political points among their political camp--we are seeing racist oversimplifications, mollycoddling of minorities as a default stance even when it is not warranted or healthy, and scapegoating of one racial group or another to further political goals. But it seems to me the most important thing to remember is this: racial issues extremely vary from one country to another, and it is beyond myopic to assume a specific race are the primary oppressors in general just because some of them are oppressors within one's country or region.

After all, politically correct racism is still indeed racism, whether or not ideologues and political hatemongers admit this. Classifying white people as a universally privileged and ignorant racial group is no less racist than doing the same to Arabs or black people, and vice versa.
Racism is racism. It's all the same thing, regardless of who is the group doing it to whom. You are right, it's not a "White" thing, anymore than any other group who happens to be in the power position and dominates their own racism of others they hold the power over. It's not a skin color thing. It's a human thing. It's ethnocentrism. It's tribalism.

Whoever's group is in power, that level of consciousness emerges to take control of the power structures. That ethnocentric mind of us and them mentality, will systematically create a division of those outside that group in lesser positions of power, or access to power. And that, is racism, and its creation of systemic racism, racism woven into the institutions of society itself and its economic access.

When use the term in America White "Privilege". I think a better term would be advantage. But go to another country, same thing, different ethnic group, different privileged class, different socio economic advantages. It's all just the more and varied tribal aspects of our humanity early on in our chain of evolution upwards towards modernity, and postmodern reality. It's still with us, and is the dominant reality of many, especially in those seeking power over others, politically, militarily, and so forth.

So that is what is racism. Just basic ethnocentric and tribal mentality, woven into the systems of the society.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
After all, politically correct racism is still indeed racism, whether or not ideologues and political hatemongers admit this. Classifying white people as a universally privileged and ignorant racial group is no less racist than doing the same to Arabs or black people, and vice versa.
I don't like it when they claim all white people share a common history amd background and experiences. We don't. My heritage is Irish. That means a very different background and history, in the Old World and New, than the English, French, Germans, Swedes, Danish, or others. And it's wrong that they somehow percieved itas racist to speak of the discrimination, violence, and even slavery against the Irish. I assume it's the same for the Scottish, who came here with the Irish and Africans as slaves. And while PC Libs criticize naming something after Lincoln or Jefferson and demand schools using Native names and mascots change them, they don't say **** about when such things are done to the Irish (Lucky Charms Cereal, Notre Dame University with a Leprechaun mascot and a team called the "Fightin Irish," or how Irish cultural items are appropriated for St. Patrick's day which is used as an excuse to drink to excess).
And, oh yeah, I was made fun of as a kid for being for being fair skinned, red haired and freckled. No being told how I look is the par setting norm and good. I have Asperger's, and have been harassed by the police with them mistaking Asperger traits for intoxication. We also tend to struggle due to our difficulties with socializing and empathy. But many people with mental illness, regardless of color, are at the bottom rungs of society's ladder. For them there is no white privilege but the hardships of homelessness and being relegated to unwanted and undesirable jobs.
And, ultimately, signs of otherness are looked down upon. Doesn't matter how intelligent or well educated a white Southern man may be, if he has a detectable Southern accent most of America outside the South will look down on him as an uneducated, unsophisticated country bumpkin.
We also see this in regards to religion, where many states have unconstitutional laws that target atheists, going as far as prohibiting them from holding public office. Atheists also tend to receive a lesser quality of care in a healthcare setting. And back to being Irish, in demographic questions here--even in the medical field--there is a box for just about everything but variations of white. And us pale skinned gingers and our doctors have to be aware of some differences in our healthcare, such as our predisposition to burning (something some medications can worsen), and we tend to be more sensitive to pain and require more anesthetics than the general population. Due to this, I've only had one dentist that has been painless, and he is aware of our plight in this area because his son is a ginger, not because this was covered in his schooling and training. But, regardless where and how he learned it was great having a dentist poke around without me having to control reflexive flinches and jerks.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The Western-Centric, Racist Myopia Among the Regressive RIGHT

I know you have a real bias against the left. But note that in the west, especially in the US, myopia is not a feature of the left but is present in most people no matter what their politics.

I take 'regressive' as a slur that leads me to start discounting anything you write because of preexisting unwarranted cultural bias.

Beyond that, prejudice against dark skinned people also exists in India and I think partly tied to the caste system.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
It's odd that you saw a problem of racism in an event that seems to relate to the intersection of race and gender. The egyptian men in your example aren't so much racist as they are incredibly sexist and fetishise white women as a fantasm. White men in Egypt face a very different experience. In my time there I found them obsequious toward my father, myself and my brother, but creepy toward my sisters. Racism isn't lived in the same way depending on your gender, your age and other factors like wealth, level of education, etc. Racism and sexism are complex systems that vary depending societies and conditions.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The Western-Centric, Racist Myopia Among the Regressive RIGHT

I know you have a real bias against the left. But note that in the west, especially in the US, myopia is not a feature of the left but is present in most people no matter what their politics.

I take 'regressive' as a slur that leads me to start discounting anything you write because of preexisting unwarranted cultural bias.

Beyond that, prejudice against dark skinned people also exists in India and I think partly tied to the caste system.

The term "regressive left" is used to describe a subset of leftists who condone anti-liberal stances, such as apologetics for Islamism and anti-white racism. It could also apply to "Berniebros" who viciously attacked women who didn't endorse Bernie Sanders. It doesn't describe all leftists, nor am I using it that way in this thread.

I also don't see how I have a "real bias against the left" when my social stances almost entirely align with leftist ones. This idea that criticizing the problematic aspects and trends present among some leftists equates to being biased against the left is exactly the kind of partisanship that enables the bad apples to become louder and more emboldened. I see it among the right wing, too.

Aa for your last line, that's precisely my point: racism exists everywhere, and no specific racial group is the main perpetrator thereof if we zoom out and consider things from a global rather than local perspective.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It's odd that you saw a problem of racism in an event that seems to relate to the intersection of race and gender. The egyptian men in your example aren't so much racist as they are incredibly sexist and fetishise white women as a fantasm. White men in Egypt face a very different experience. In my time there I found them obsequious toward my father, myself and my brother, but creepy toward my sisters. Racism isn't lived in the same way depending on your gender, your age and other factors like wealth, level of education, etc. Racism and sexism are complex systems that vary depending societies and conditions.

"Fetishizing white women as a fantasm" is racist in addition to being sexist, as is being obsequious toward someone based on their skin color (which I'm not sure was the reason for the obsequiousness in your case; I suspect it might have just been a way to coax money out of you, probably by selling you stuff or getting a tip, since I've seen that myself).

I don't disagree with the rest of your points, and I do think the sexism compounded the racism, and vice versa. Acknowledging the complexity doesn't erase either factor.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's odd that you saw a problem of racism in an event that seems to relate to the intersection of race and gender. The egyptian men in your example aren't so much racist as they are incredibly sexist and fetishise white women as a fantasm. White men in Egypt face a very different experience. In my time there I found them obsequious toward my father, myself and my brother, but creepy toward my sisters. Racism isn't lived in the same way depending on your gender, your age and other factors like wealth, level of education, etc. Racism and sexism are complex systems that vary depending societies and conditions.
These Regressive Lefties do say it's racist when white men fetishize Native or Asian women.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
These Regressive Lefties do say it's racist when white men fetishize Native or Asian women.

And they are right. The problem is the selectivity and extremely lopsided perspective that some people have whereby they only acknowledge specific actions as racist if they happen to come from people of a given race but not when they come from others.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The Western-Centric, Racist Myopia Among the Regressive RIGHT

I know you have a real bias against the left. But note that in the west, especially in the US, myopia is not a feature of the left but is present in most people no matter what their politics.

I take 'regressive' as a slur that leads me to start discounting anything you write because of preexisting unwarranted cultural bias.

Beyond that, prejudice against dark skinned people also exists in India and I think partly tied to the caste system.
Have you heard if the ones who claim grammar, math, and science are racist? Doesn't matter what side who said it is on, Left or Right, an attack on knowledge and systems for learning and discovering are regressive. Today it gets "cancelled." In ages past those the anti-thought crowd didn't like were burned at the stake.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And they are right. The problem is the selectivity and extremely lopsided perspective that some people have whereby they only acknowledge specific actions as racist if they happen to come from people of a given race but not when they come from others.
Yup. And the way the go about it, the guilt trips and shaming, being guilty by default, a proper way to think and view the world, the Regressive/PC Left reminds me so much of Evangelical Christianity that I'm not surprised when I read articles fro. The PC crowd that place black people on a special pedestal the way Evangelicals do with Jews (the main exception being the Evangelicals blame the Jews for their own misfortunes that brought upon themselves by disobeying god, whereas the PC Libs would claim black people can't be racist).
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
These Regressive Lefties do say it's racist when white men fetishize Native or Asian women.

That's correct. It's also a sexist attitude. It's not an either or situation. They are both. In my opinion though it's sexism colored by racism and not the other way around.

Note that the fetishisation of white women does come from what could be called ''a place of privilege''. The fashion industry is dominated by white people and most famous models are white to please a largely white audience. The cultural dominance of the West is such that even people in Egypt and other region of Asia and Africa have as easy access to European and American produced softly erotic material as local one's. Sometime, western softly erotic media is much easier due to acquire due to the lack of a local industry of such material. White women are often hypersexualised and this hypersexualisation doesn't stop at the border of western countries as or media are globaly distributed. It's thus not surprising in such circumstances, though certainly distressing, to see white women being perceived as object of lust more than actual people in culture where women's status is, as a norm, low.
 
Last edited:

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Before my best friend, a white European, left for her country over a year ago, we always felt a degree of unsafety and discomfort while walking Egyptian streets together.

The reason? Aside from the fact that Egypt has a sexual harassment pandemic, my friend's being white caused her to be the subject of even more unwanted attention: blondes with colored eyes are especially fetishized among many Egyptian men, and she was no exception.

On top of the constant discomfort she experienced while walking down the street--to the point where she couldn't use public transportation alone due to the harassment--she was also scammed while visiting some tourist attractions, much like many other foreigners who aren't well-acquainted with the local prices and usual tricks of scammers. She often had an Egyptian (whether her husband or someone else) accompany her when outside as a result of all of these issues.

Make no mistake: Egypt also has a racism problem against black people, so my friend's gender- and race-based ordeals are far from unique. Furthermore, a passport from a developed country, especially the U.S. and Europe, carries a lot of weight in Egypt, so she would have at least had her EU nationality backing her up if she had ever needed to escalate things on a legal level. This privilege, however, is based on one's passport, not on their skin color or gender--both of which proved to be factors against her multiple times in Egypt.

The idea that white people sit atop a hierarchy of privilege seems to me fundamentally myopic when applied on a global scale, at least if we're talking about average people rather than those who possess power or wealth. In Saudi Arabia, Saudi millionaires possess extreme and inhumane amounts of privilege over foreign workers--especially those from other parts of Asia and the Arab world. In Egypt, many brown people fetishize white people and mock or discriminate against black people. In the U.S., white supremacists have seemingly become more vocal in recent years, with some among the left mistakenly believing that Western-centric, racist generaliziations about white people are the answer to this problem.

Under the banner of pursuing racial equality--and, in reality for some people nowadays, political points among their political camp--we are seeing racist oversimplifications, mollycoddling of minorities as a default stance even when it is not warranted or healthy, and scapegoating of one racial group or another to further political goals. But it seems to me the most important thing to remember is this: racial issues extremely vary from one country to another, and it is beyond myopic to assume a specific race are the primary oppressors in general just because some of them are oppressors within one's country or region.

After all, politically correct racism is still indeed racism, whether or not ideologues and political hatemongers admit this. Classifying white people as a universally privileged and ignorant racial group is no less racist than doing the same to Arabs or black people, and vice versa.
I mean I suppose, to be fair, a lot of political movements are not global. Nor do they think in such terms. Every country has its own unique problems when it comes to race, class and bloodied history. So political movements will inevitably vary drastically, country to country. What you say is true in Egypt. But Egypt is not America, which has entirely different circumstances and problems. Even New Zealand differs drastically to Australia and they’re like our literal neighbours.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
the reason for the obsequiousness in your case; I suspect it might have just been a way to coax money out of you, probably by selling you stuff or getting a tip, since I've seen that myself).

Iwould suspect it's a mix of old colonial habits of being obsequious toward rich white people and of course, the desire to make some extra money and get tip which is perfectly understandable and not something for which would blame them. People got to make a living and trying to get some tips and good reviews is a perfectly legitimate way to do it. It's just a bit creepy at some point. There is such a thing in my opinion as being "too polite".
 
Note that the fetishisation of white women does come from what could be called ''a place of privilege''. The fashion industry is dominated by white people and most famous models are white to please a largely white audience. The cultural dominance of the West is such that even people in Egypt and other region of Asia and Africa have as easy access to European and American produced softly erotic material as local one's.

While what you say has some truth, it is also not entirely accurate.

It goes back over a millennium regarding the harems of Arabs, North Africans, Ottomans, etc. The slave trade was certainly carried out from a place of privilege.

Also another reason is the preference for light coloured skin in many countries which long predates colonialism and was a marker of class.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
@Debater Slayer
Could you be a little more concrete in your speech and name examples of these "racist oversimplifications", or perhaps an elaboration of what you see as "mollycoddling of minorities"?

I'm having a hard time grasping what exactly you are talking about here. I've literally never seen a single Western leftist talk about racism in Egypt one way or another (unsurprisingly, as without Western journalistic attention, the overwhelming majority of Americans and Europeans would have a hard time keeping track of what's going on there).
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
While what you say has some truth, it is also not entirely accurate.

It goes back over a millennium regarding the harems of Arabs, North Africans, Ottomans, etc. The slave trade was certainly carried out from a place of privilege.

Also another reason is the preference for light coloured skin in many countries which long predates colonialism and was a marker of class.
"Harems" are separate parts of buildings to house a man's wives and female servants. Are you perhaps referring to the orientalist stereotype that was primarily promoted by European imperialist adventurers, artists and literati in the 19th century to titillate their European and American audiences?

The overwhelming majority of the Arab slave trade was conducted with Africa and Africans. Europeans were not a common commodity among slavers after the Russian Empire came into control of the territory of the Golden Horde and the Crimean Tartars, who were the primary movers in the Black Seas slave trade (which, by the way, was mainly run by Italian merchants, not Arabs).
 
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