The Western Left-Hand Path

[1137]

There is a lot of propaganda, confusion, and simple absence of knowledge on the topic of the Western Left-Hand Path (WLHP). In the first category we have individuals who believe the WLHP is evil, wholly selfish, and overall generally frown upon it. In the second category there are those who believe that the WLHP claims heritage of the Eastern Left-Hand Path (ELHP), that the WLHP somehow does not exist, or that it is inauthentic in some way. Some simply have no idea the WLHP is a thing. I would like to alleviate some of these concerns.


The best place to start is the beginning, and the WLHP does not claim a very ancient one. One thing that almost everyone gets correct about the WLHP is that it can be essentially equated to Satanism. I fought this a long time myself, but only because I was misinformed and ignorant (and I highly recommend the newish text “The Invention of Satanism”). Rather than being as simplistic as LaVeyan Satanism or pure reactive Satanism (pseudo-satanism), Satanism has become a complex movement consisting of everything from the aforementioned groups to mature, esoteric, and academic groups such as the Temple of Set. Look at how respected Dr. Stephen Flowers has become in the academic occult community, especially his Lords of the Left Hand Path.


However, up until the formation of the Church of Satan in 1966, there really was no organized, religious form of Satanism. There were romanticized Satanism or the use of satanic imagery to mock the church, such as with the Hell-Fire clubs, but there was not a large, organized, evolving community. That all started with LaVey, and so the WLHP, despite what many claim or think, only traces its roots back 50 years. While LaVey may be taken much less seriously today (rightly so?), there is no denying his importance in this matter. There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.


Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths. All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power. A follower of the WLHP will obey State laws not because they accept the authority of the state, but because the punishment is not worth the reward. Try getting a meaningful job with multiple felonies, for example. Understanding how the system works does not mean one agrees with or supports it.



So yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and lies about the WLHP. It boils down to nothing more than that. The WLHP is not evil, and practitioners tend to keep out of trouble. Something like assaulting a man you are upset with would never be worth the monetary and temporal loss. The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic, the two best I’ve read already being mentioned, and containing many more sources within them. Finally, to view the WLHP as selfish in some way is not entirely accurate. The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented.


I hope this clears up some concerns or misunderstandings, and will answer any questions.

 

[Kapalika]

Just some things I'd like to add, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. I can respond more generally later (tomorrow maybe), busy atm.

There is a lot of propaganda, confusion, and simple absence of knowledge on the topic of the Western Left-Hand Path (WLHP). In the first category we have individuals who believe the WLHP is evil, wholly selfish, and overall generally frown upon it. In the second category there are those who believe that the WLHP claims heritage of the Eastern Left-Hand Path (ELHP), that the WLHP somehow does not exist, or that it is inauthentic in some way. Some simply have no idea the WLHP is a thing. I would like to alleviate some of these concerns.

I can't speak for others, but the elitism and the 'only the western LHP is the real LHP' attitudes seem fairly pervasive as many view the unification of self and deity as counter to their own usage of the term Left Hand Path.

However in my perspective that comes about by seeing LHP as perusing a primarily orthodox view of the mind/heart and the deity/God. For example Kula which is a Left Hand Path Kashmir Shaivite sect has you follow your heart (subjective self/reality) and it later is regenerated into the universal consciousness as both distinct and united with it. This is extremely close to the western LHP imo.

There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.

The term before him was being used to denote "bad"/evil practitioners of magic. The term was around, it was inevitable someone would invert it's usage to mock religions like Wicca and Neo-Paganism. At the time, and even still today many appeal to fear mongering to divert fear off of themselves towards the Satanists.

Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths. All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name.

That really depends on a few things. I don't know much about others but in some forms of Tantra the self isn't totally absolved like in the more orthodox schools. Also many more orthodox paths of Buddhism see you not as loosing the personality when you attain Nirvana, just that the desire and suffering ceases. But for schools like Vendanta and Samkhya what you say is true.

 

[Desert Snake]

There is a lot of propaganda, confusion, and simple absence of knowledge on the topic of the Western Left-Hand Path (WLHP). In the first category we have individuals who believe the WLHP is evil, wholly selfish, and overall generally frown upon it. In the second category there are those who believe that the WLHP claims heritage of the Eastern Left-Hand Path (ELHP), that the WLHP somehow does not exist, or that it is inauthentic in some way. Some simply have no idea the WLHP is a thing. I would like to alleviate some of these concerns.


The best place to start is the beginning, and the WLHP does not claim a very ancient one. One thing that almost everyone gets correct about the WLHP is that it can be essentially equated to Satanism. I fought this a long time myself, but only because I was misinformed and ignorant (and I highly recommend the newish text “The Invention of Satanism”). Rather than being as simplistic as LaVeyan Satanism or pure reactive Satanism (pseudo-satanism), Satanism has become a complex movement consisting of everything from the aforementioned groups to mature, esoteric, and academic groups such as the Temple of Set. Look at how respected Dr. Stephen Flowers has become in the academic occult community, especially his Lords of the Left Hand Path.


However, up until the formation of the Church of Satan in 1966, there really was no organized, religious form of Satanism. There were romanticized Satanism or the use of satanic imagery to mock the church, such as with the Hell-Fire clubs, but there was not a large, organized, evolving community. That all started with LaVey, and so the WLHP, despite what many claim or think, only traces its roots back 50 years. While LaVey may be taken much less seriously today (rightly so?), there is no denying his importance in this matter. There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.


Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths. All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power. A follower of the WLHP will obey State laws not because they accept the authority of the state, but because the punishment is not worth the reward. Try getting a meaningful job with multiple felonies, for example. Understanding how the system works does not mean one agrees with or supports it.



So yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and lies about the WLHP. It boils down to nothing more than that. The WLHP is not evil, and practitioners tend to keep out of trouble. Something like assaulting a man you are upset with would never be worth the monetary and temporal loss. The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic, the two best I’ve read already being mentioned, and containing many more sources within them. Finally, to view the WLHP as selfish in some way is not entirely accurate. The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented.


I hope this clears up some concerns or misunderstandings, and will answer any questions.

Criticism of ''wlhp'', may arise from the very statements in your op. Some of the claims seem completely arbitrary. That's fine, however, i don't agree with your pretext/conclusions regarding what ''wlhp'' is , or the speculation thusly regarding the groups calling themselves 'lhp', and their status as authority for such a broad label, etc.

 

[Mindmaster]

However, up until the formation of the Church of Satan in 1966, there really was no organized, religious form of Satanism. There were romanticized Satanism or the use of satanic imagery to mock the church, such as with the Hell-Fire clubs, but there was not a large, organized, evolving community. That all started with LaVey, and so the WLHP, despite what many claim or think, only traces its roots back 50 years. While LaVey may be taken much less seriously today (rightly so?), there is no denying his importance in this matter. There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.

Unfortunately, Lavey tempered everything he did with useless hubris, excessive focus on hedonism, cults of personality, cliques, lies, and making a mockery of his Church. It really doesn't matter what he brought to the table as far as I am concerned, he destroyed more than he created. I view the new WLHP more as trendy edgelords who are part of the nasty 3.0 social scene. They're even more useless than LaVey was after the 1970s, and that's saying a lot. What do any of them do other than try to out-spook one another? The new LHP seems to be a troll fest, and not doing much else. Hence my lack of interest for the future...

Stephen Flowers pretty much presents a one-size fits all Setian presentation of the Left-Hand Path, needless to say, I was never too enthused. His press imploded due to him pen naming various books as Edred Thorrson, coming out as a member of Temple of Set, and getting thrown out of the Odin Rite, and basically denounced by most of the prominent names in Germanic paganism. I have no idea what he is doing now, but I probably have one of the last old-cover copies of Lords of the Left-Hand path ever made. I ordered it directly from Runa-Raven press. I have no doubt he is a smart guy, but I think he's tilted a bit too far off to one side for an even presentation.

I'm pretty sure the western left-hand path would have worked out just fine without these people. When I say that, I have really to look no further than the Typhonian OTO or Traditional Witchcraft (which had no problem going into the scary territory). It would have just come from a different angle... Probably with less of a fashion show. I mean, there is a philosophical LHP here and one that is hands-on. The people getting their hands dirty have always been in the real drivers seat. Everyone else just wishes they were, basically.

I've basically left the LHP because to become it you must pollute your soul. It's a me-first mentality, and sometimes that is just short-sighted, erroneous, or otherwise problematic. The WLHP is cannibalistic and sort of self-destructing, both via nasty elements, and philosophy wars. The worst part of it is there is no "why" as far as the problems it causes, they just seem to be side effects.

 

[crossfire]

<...>
I've basically left the LHP because to become it you must pollute your soul. It's a me-first mentality, and sometimes that is just short-sighted, erroneous, or otherwise problematic. The WLHP is cannibalistic and sort of self-destructing, both via nasty elements, and philosophy wars. The worst part of it is there is no "why" as far as the problems it causes, they just seem to be side effects.

Do you remember the movie Forbidden Planet, and the Monster of the Id?

 

[1137]

Unfortunately, Lavey tempered everything he did with useless hubris, excessive focus on hedonism, cults of personality, cliques, lies, and making a mockery of his Church. It really doesn't matter what he brought to the table as far as I am concerned, he destroyed more than he created. I view the new WLHP more as trendy edgelords who are part of the nasty 3.0 social scene. They're even more useless than LaVey was after the 1970s, and that's saying a lot. What do any of them do other than try to out-spook one another? The new LHP seems to be a troll fest, and not doing much else. Hence my lack of interest for the future...

Stephen Flowers pretty much presents a one-size fits all Setian presentation of the Left-Hand Path, needless to say, I was never too enthused. His press imploded due to him pen naming various books as Edred Thorrson, coming out as a member of Temple of Set, and getting thrown out of the Odin Rite, and basically denounced by most of the prominent names in Germanic paganism. I have no idea what he is doing now, but I probably have one of the last old-cover copies of Lords of the Left-Hand path ever made. I ordered it directly from Runa-Raven press. I have no doubt he is a smart guy, but I think he's tilted a bit too far off to one side for an even presentation.

I'm pretty sure the western left-hand path would have worked out just fine without these people. When I say that, I have really to look no further than the Typhonian OTO or Traditional Witchcraft (which had no problem going into the scary territory). It would have just come from a different angle... Probably with less of a fashion show. I mean, there is a philosophical LHP here and one that is hands-on. The people getting their hands dirty have always been in the real drivers seat. Everyone else just wishes they were, basically.

I've basically left the LHP because to become it you must pollute your soul. It's a me-first mentality, and sometimes that is just short-sighted, erroneous, or otherwise problematic. The WLHP is cannibalistic and sort of self-destructing, both via nasty elements, and philosophy wars. The worst part of it is there is no "why" as far as the problems it causes, they just seem to be side effects.

A full explanation right in front of you and you still revert to ignorant trolling. I was right about you, that's for sure.

 

[1137]

Criticism of ''wlhp'', may arise from the very statements in your op. Some of the claims seem completely arbitrary. That's fine, however, i don't agree with your pretext/conclusions regarding what ''wlhp'' is , or the speculation thusly regarding the groups calling themselves 'lhp', and their status as authority for such a broad label, etc.

Would you be willing to elaborate on your disagreements?

 

[Desert Snake]

There is a lot of propaganda, confusion, and simple absence of knowledge on the topic of the Western Left-Hand Path (WLHP). In the first category we have individuals who believe the WLHP is evil, wholly selfish, and overall generally frown upon it. In the second category there are those who believe that the WLHP claims heritage of the Eastern Left-Hand Path (ELHP), that the WLHP somehow does not exist, or that it is inauthentic in some way. Some simply have no idea the WLHP is a thing. I would like to alleviate some of these concerns.

Agree with this

The best place to start is the beginning, and the WLHP does not claim a very ancient one.

I disagree with this, or rather, it depends on what you are defining as 'wlhp', specifically. In the context of such, including theistic ideas that may be related to traditional western religious ideas, i disagree with this.

One thing that almost everyone gets correct about the WLHP is that it can be essentially equated to Satanism.

Eh, i think i might, /reluctantly/, have to disagree with this. As for example, there is a difference between 'satanism', and luciferianism, both traditional, and luciferianism, although not always equating to wlhp, usually is. Personally, i do not use these these terms interchanchangably, they can be very different from each other.

I fought this a long time myself, but only because I was misinformed and ignorant (and I highly recommend the newish text “The Invention of Satanism”). Rather than being as simplistic as LaVeyan Satanism or pure reactive Satanism (pseudo-satanism),

Both of those concepts, rather labels, would be innacurate, imo.

Satanism has become a complex movement consisting of everything from the aforementioned groups to mature, esoteric, and academic groups such as the Temple of Set. Look at how respected Dr. Stephen Flowers has become in the academic occult community, especially his Lords of the Left Hand Path.

This is again quite subjective, although, it isn't a problem as a personal assertion, /opinion.

However, up until the formation of the Church of Satan in 1966, there really was no organized, religious form of Satanism. There were romanticized Satanism or the use of satanic imagery to mock the church, such as with the Hell-Fire clubs, but there was not a large, organized, evolving community. That all started with LaVey, and so the WLHP, despite what many claim or think, only traces its roots back 50 years. While LaVey may be taken much less seriously today (rightly so?), there is no denying his importance in this matter. There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.

I think a key to problematic assertion here, is the admittance of using other sources, etc, on which one draw their material from.

Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths.

...

All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc.

These ideas seem very standard for normal eastern religions, /some eastern religions/. I don't notice anything that would delineate them from the basic religious tenets of those religions. Ie, not sure why they would be ''lhp'', or rather, why they would relate to the wlhp, and hence, why the same label. Syncreticism is /known, in the wlhp, but that does not mean that all the ideas etc in the syncretic format are lhp, imo.

This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power. A follower of the WLHP will obey State laws not because they accept the authority of the state, but because the punishment is not worth the reward. Try getting a meaningful job with multiple felonies, for example. Understanding how the system works does not mean one agrees with or supports it.

This is extremely subjective, and is personal as to ones definitions and values, etc. Basically, although it's prevalant among ''lhp'r's, it is not a 'rule', that lhp necessarily would have to abide by, to define itself, /philosophically/.

So yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and lies about the WLHP. It boils down to nothing more than that. The WLHP is not evil, and practitioners tend to keep out of trouble. Something like assaulting a man you are upset with would never be worth the monetary and temporal loss. The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic, the two best I’ve read already being mentioned, and containing many more sources within them. Finally, to view the WLHP as selfish in some way is not entirely accurate. The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented.


I hope this clears up some concerns or misunderstandings, and will answer any questions.

...

 

[Onyx]

The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented.

You cleared that up beautifully, thank you.

 

[Mindmaster]

A full explanation right in front of you and you still revert to ignorant trolling. I was right about you, that's for sure.

The truth is hard to swallow, and who it comes from is irrelevant. Your approach to dissenting opinions is always the same, denounce the speaker of them. For once, just consider that there a lot of people who will find issues with the lifestyles of various LHP people because they either don't live by their own ideas or they are too focused on irrelevant trappings. LaVey got bored and started selling ranks to anyone that would give him money, and the entire inner circle (basically the founding members of Church of Satan) left. Church of Satan was sold to Peter H. Gilmore and is just a company now that collects checks. It really does nothing for/with/about the LHP. The CoS that mattered is long gone, and there aren't as many members in the group as you would think. It's probably less than 200 actives based on the limited number of original posters in various places, and the fact that newer LHP types aren't involved with CoS Satanism and they are more likely to be involved with Luciferianism, which sort of drives my point home about the nasty traits associated with most paths... People are picking the variation with the least difficulties and skeletons in the closet.

It's not trolling to present opinions contrary to yours regardless of what you say. Calling LaVey a hero and raising the Satanic flag high for him is silly as hell after what he did with it. I don't really feel that modern LHPers owe him very much, and not mentioning the problems he's caused is really not presenting the picture accurately. I don't even know what you could argue with on that post other than the last line which was my opinion. The rest were just facts that are easily gleaned anywhere on the net.

 

[1137]

The truth is hard to swallow, and who it comes from is irrelevant. Your approach to dissenting opinions is always the same, denounce the speaker of them. For once, just consider that there a lot of people who will find issues with the lifestyles of various LHP people because they either don't live by their own ideas or they are too focused on irrelevant trappings. LaVey got bored and started selling ranks to anyone that would give him money, and the entire inner circle (basically the founding members of Church of Satan) left. Church of Satan was sold to Peter H. Gilmore and is just a company now that collects checks. It really does nothing for/with/about the LHP. The CoS that mattered is long gone, and there aren't as many members in the group as you would think. It's probably less than 200 actives based on the limited number of original posters in various places, and the fact that newer LHP types aren't involved with CoS Satanism and they are more likely to be involved with Luciferianism, which sort of drives my point home about the nasty traits associated with most paths... People are picking the variation with the least difficulties and skeletons in the closet.

It's not trolling to present opinions contrary to yours regardless of what you say. Calling LaVey a hero and raising the Satanic flag high for him is silly as hell after what he did with it. I don't really feel that modern LHPers owe him very much, and not mentioning the problems he's caused is really not presenting the picture accurately. I don't even know what you could argue with on that post other than the last line which was my opinion. The rest were just facts that are easily gleaned anywhere on the net.

Yeah, your intent behind coming in here with your "edgelord" crap was entirely innocent, and you're certainly not one for ad hominem? I'm sorry you failed the LHP mind master, I truly am. And there's people who have been willing to help if you didn't fill your posts with passive aggressive antagonism. I'm truly not interested in what you have to say, as you've shown a complete lack of understanding of the topics you pretend to be well versed in. If you refuse to educate yourself, there's nothing I can do, and I'm frankly weary of it.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm pretty sure the western left-hand path would have worked out just fine without these people. When I say that, I have really to look no further than the Typhonian OTO or Traditional Witchcraft (which had no problem going into the scary territory). It would have just come from a different angle... Probably with less of a fashion show. I mean, there is a philosophical LHP here and one that is hands-on. The people getting their hands dirty have always been in the real drivers seat. Everyone else just wishes they were, basically.

That's funny, I seem to recall quite a different opinion of the OTO, when I have brought it up... Was that a misguided case of white knighting?

 

[Kapalika]

Yeah, your intent behind coming in here with your "edgelord" crap was entirely innocent, and you're certainly not one for ad hominem? I'm sorry you failed the LHP mind master, I truly am. And there's people who have been willing to help if you didn't fill your posts with passive aggressive antagonism. I'm truly not interested in what you have to say, as you've shown a complete lack of understanding of the topics you pretend to be well versed in. If you refuse to educate yourself, there's nothing I can do, and I'm frankly weary of it.

I'm pretty much with Mindmaster here on the western LHP; it's too absorbed into the ego-driven self. Hedonism and self-image-actualization (as opposed to actualizing the self it actualizes it's self image) becomes the end in itself and it can't really sustain itself that's why there is always these Satanic and LHP churches that don't last very long. It's crazy how many Satanic groups have propped up and fallen down over the last few decades that I've lost count. It doesn't help that every other LHP'r wants to be their own prophet or start their own church or something.

I'd say knowing how long @Mindmaster was a Satanist he probably very well knows what he's talking about. As someone involved in the Left Hand Path (both eastern and western as well as satanism) I can basically agree with most of what he says. It seems that only really the Temple of Set can outgrow the baggage in my opinion but they basically become another take on Thelma as far as I can tell but with some other imagery. They seem a bit' more middle path than hard left, which isn't really about what people like LaVey understood it. In the end most of the 'western left hand path' is just a gateway to more mature spiritual systems. At least, it was for me.

 

[1137]

I'm pretty much with Mindmaster here on the western LHP; it's too absorbed into the ego-driven self. Hedonism and self-image-actualization (as opposed to actualizing the self it actualizes it's self image) becomes the end in itself and it can't really sustain itself that's why there is always these Satanic and LHP churches that don't last very long. It's crazy how many Satanic groups have propped up and fallen down ove.r the last few decades that I've lost count. It doesn't help that every other LHP'r wants to be their own prophet or start their own church or something.

I'd say knowing how long @Mindmaster was a Satanist he probably very well knows what he's talking about. As someone involved in the Left Hand Path (both eastern and western as well as satanism) I can basically agree with most of what he says. It seems that only really the Temple of Set can outgrow the baggage in my opinion but they basically become another take on Thelma as far as I can tell but with some other imagery. They seem a bit' more middle path than hard left, which isn't really about what people like LaVey understood it. In the end most of the 'western left hand path' is just a gateway to more mature spiritual systems. At least, it was for me.

And you're welcome to that opinion. You're not welcome to come here like a hostile child insulting a group simply because you disagree. Hell even LaVey was against such a thing! I appreciate your adult input.

 

[Kapalika]

Too sober for this gah.

And you're welcome to that opinion. You're not welcome to come here like a hostile child insulting a group simply because you disagree. Hell even LaVey was against such a thing! I appreciate your adult input.

..what? When did I ever 'childishly insult' you or anyone?

Also if you think that LaVey was above being childish I would suggest you re-read what he said in The Satanic Bible about "white-lighter" religions. Likewise Gilmore has multiple times on the record used little more than simple disparaging remarks to dismiss virtually all other forms of Satanism.

I would implore you to reread what I said in a bit' and re-evaluate your assessment. Honestly, it seems to me that you simply are angered by my perspective of the Left Hand Path. That perspective has been refined over several years on both the "western" and "eastern" side... which to be honest are not too terribly different as far as what I practice. Really the position I come from is not antagonistic; it's actually much more a friend of yours than say other forms of Hindu Left Hand Path might be due to how my own path sees the citta (mind/heart) as integral towards self-deification. It's because of this I am taken aback that you would ever say I am hostile, when in fact I am probably your best friend for sympathizing, understanding relating to and even in many ways agreeing with the "western left hand path" conceptualization of self-realization and deification.

But the devil is in the details, eh? There are a some major diversion points, but that's why more typical "popular" understandings of the LHP are hedonistic dead-ends... you gotta dig a little deeper to go further spiritually imo.

 

[1137]

Too sober for this gah.



..what? When did I ever 'childishly insult' you or anyone?

Also if you think that LaVey was above being childish I would suggest you re-read what he said in The Satanic Bible about "white-lighter" religions. Likewise Gilmore has multiple times on the record used little more than simple disparaging remarks to dismiss virtually all other forms of Satanism.

I would implore you to reread what I said in a bit' and re-evaluate your assessment. Honestly, it seems to me that you simply are angered by my perspective of the Left Hand Path. That perspective has been refined over several years on both the "western" and "eastern" side... which to be honest are not too terribly different as far as what I practice. Really the position I come from is not antagonistic; it's actually much more a friend of yours than say other forms of Hindu Left Hand Path might be due to how my own path sees the citta (mind/heart) as integral towards self-deification. It's because of this I am taken aback that you would ever say I am hostile, when in fact I am probably your best friend for sympathizing, understanding relating to and even in many ways agreeing with the "western left hand path" conceptualization of self-realization and deification.

But the devil is in the details, eh? There are a few major diversion points, but that's why more typical "popular" understandings of the LHP are hedonistic dead-ends... you gotta dig a little deeper to go further spiritually imo.

I was speaking of the user who came barging in throwing around terms like "edgelord" and "troll fest" to describe the WLHP. Take a few deep breaths.

 

[1137]

I find it sad that it's assumed I'm some LaVey supporter or that I'm upset by dissenting opinions. It's really rather low and quite sad. This thread was posted in this forum for a reason, I suggest you learn, ask questions, or move on.

 

[Kapalika]

Almost not-sober enough to do this topic...

I was speaking of the user who came barging in throwing around terms like "edgelord" and "troll fest" to describe the WLHP. Take a few deep breaths.

If this is true why did you quote my post in your response? It is perfectly reasonable to think that you were talking to me when you quote me before saying what you said.

I find it sad that it's assumed I'm some LaVey supporter or that I'm upset by dissenting opinions. It's really rather low and quite sad. This thread was posted in this forum for a reason, I suggest you learn, ask questions, or move on.

Then why do you keep defending him?

Look this isn't the debate part of the forum. If you wanted to refute other opinions that might run counter to your own you should of put this in the religious debates section. The way you are responding to differing opinions though would imply that you were upset by them, given you gave some accusations at to the motivations (ie calling other trolls).

I would simply suggest we all "agree to disagree" because if we don't this will be moved to the debates section and/or the moderators might get involved. There could be some fertile conversation here I think. I would greatly like if we could all discuss this impartially and by this paragraph/statement I intend to direct them at no one in particular as I wish for everyone to heed them and no blame be assigned or assumed in this process least any and/or all of us become folly to our own pride.

 

[EtuMalku]

There is a lot of propaganda, confusion, and simple absence of knowledge on the topic of the Western Left-Hand Path (WLHP). In the first category we have individuals who believe the WLHP is evil, wholly selfish, and overall generally frown upon it. In the second category there are those who believe that the WLHP claims heritage of the Eastern Left-Hand Path (ELHP), that the WLHP somehow does not exist, or that it is inauthentic in some way. Some simply have no idea the WLHP is a thing. I would like to alleviate some of these concerns.


The best place to start is the beginning, and the WLHP does not claim a very ancient one. One thing that almost everyone gets correct about the WLHP is that it can be essentially equated to Satanism. I fought this a long time myself, but only because I was misinformed and ignorant (and I highly recommend the newish text “The Invention of Satanism”). Rather than being as simplistic as LaVeyan Satanism or pure reactive Satanism (pseudo-satanism), Satanism has become a complex movement consisting of everything from the aforementioned groups to mature, esoteric, and academic groups such as the Temple of Set. Look at how respected Dr. Stephen Flowers has become in the academic occult community, especially his Lords of the Left Hand Path.


However, up until the formation of the Church of Satan in 1966, there really was no organized, religious form of Satanism. There were romanticized Satanism or the use of satanic imagery to mock the church, such as with the Hell-Fire clubs, but there was not a large, organized, evolving community. That all started with LaVey, and so the WLHP, despite what many claim or think, only traces its roots back 50 years. While LaVey may be taken much less seriously today (rightly so?), there is no denying his importance in this matter. There would be no WLHP without LaVey. He turned “satanic” ideals of self-betterment, enlightenment-era thinking, acceptance of the material world, and all similar beliefs into one complete and organized religious system. Sure many of the ideas had been touched on before, but LaVey synthesized them (to the point of plagiarism?) in a whole new way.


Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths. All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power. A follower of the WLHP will obey State laws not because they accept the authority of the state, but because the punishment is not worth the reward. Try getting a meaningful job with multiple felonies, for example. Understanding how the system works does not mean one agrees with or supports it.



So yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and lies about the WLHP. It boils down to nothing more than that. The WLHP is not evil, and practitioners tend to keep out of trouble. Something like assaulting a man you are upset with would never be worth the monetary and temporal loss. The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic, the two best I’ve read already being mentioned, and containing many more sources within them. Finally, to view the WLHP as selfish in some way is not entirely accurate. The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented.


I hope this clears up some concerns or misunderstandings, and will answer any questions.

Very elegantly stated, I think you nailed the understanding / misunderstanding of the WLHP as well as the 'newishness' of the philosophy
The CoS is undoubtedly the first WLHP step, Dr. Flowers' work (LotLHP) did an excellent job of defining the philosophy and revealing who / what is and is not WLHP

 

[1137]

Almost not-sober enough to do this topic...



If this is true why did you quote my post in your response? It is perfectly reasonable to think that you were talking to me when you quote me before saying what you said.

Did you not reference the user in your post I was responding to?

Then why do you keep defending him

You must have missed the OP, that big explanation where I said it's good LaVey isn't taken seriously now, and called him a plagarist. Further, if I were explaining the importance of St. Peter to Christianity, does that mean I support St. Peter, that I agree with him?

This is absurd.