The Whole Crucifixion Story Fact's Or Fiction ?

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

In the Baha'i view, the Crucifixion is historical fact, and one of a number of instances when humanity not only rejected a God-sent Divine Messenger, but actually killed Him! :-(

Peace,

Bruce

 

[James the Persian]

Hi!

In the Baha'i view, the Crucifixion is historical fact, and one of a number of instances when humanity not only rejected a God-sent Divine Messenger, but actually killed Him! :-(

Peace,

Bruce

In line with my question as to how you reconcile a spiritual second coming with the Bible, how do Baha'is reconcile an actual crucifixion with the Quran? Again, I'm genuinely interested, not trying to cause an argument.

James

 

[TehuTi]

The Whole Crucifixion Story Was A Play Created By Joseph Flavius Piso , Which I Will Elaborate Further On Within This Post He Got His Idea From The 2nd Psalms Written By A Chief Magician Upon Aigeleth Shahar A Psalm Of David They Call It '' Anguish And Praise '' They Refer To This As A Psalm Of David . Remember That The Psalms Were Revealed In Jerusalem To King David ...
( 73 Books ) Solomon ( 2Books ) And Asaph ( 12Books ) Koran ( 12 Books )Ethan
( 1Book ) Moses ( 1Book ) And Heman ( 1Book ) Around 1037 B.C.E. This Book Of Songs For What Psalms Mean . Consist Of 150 Different Songs Grouped Into Five Collections .


The First Collections; Psalm 1 - 41
The Second Collection ; Psalms 42 - 47
The Third Collection ; Psalsm 73 - 89
The Fourth Collection ; Psalsm 90 - 106 And
The Fifth Collections ; Psalsm 107 - 150
The Fact That The Book Of Psalms Is Broken Up Into The Five Scrolls Or Sections Is Why They HAave Been Called The Five Books Of David . You Have 5 Books Of The Old Testament Which Are What The Torah Is Made Out . Genesis , Exodus , Leviticus , Number , AndDeutrtonmomy , Then You Have These Psalms Broken Up Into Five Books Also And Many Different Authors Took Part In The WrittegOf These 150 Psalms . , All Of A Suddden This Story , Wich Daites Bacxk That Far . Ennds Up The Nrw Testamem Matthew 27 ; 46 Read Psalms Psalm 22 Yourself And You Will See It , And About The 9th Hour


Jesus Cried With A Loud Voice Saying < '' Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani > That Is To Say My God My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me . Now This Was In The Book Of Matthews In The New Testament . The Book Of Matthews Was Reavealed In 41 A.D Called The Gospel Of The Good News According To Matthew Matthew Himself In The Bible , In Matthews Chapter 9 ; 9 Becomes A Contradiction . < Obviously By This Statement In Matthew 9 ; 9 Matthew Couldn't Have Written The Book Of Matthew Or The Quote Would Have Read He Saw Me , A Man Name Matthew . Matthew Was A Tax Collector Matthew 9 ; 9 . In Luke 5 ; 27 - 32 Matthew Threw A Banquet Or Party For Jesus , And This Is Before He Became One Of Jesus ' Disciples . Matthew 17 ; 24



That Is How Long This Event Was Found Of The Crucifixion And It Was Recorded By Someone Other Than Matthew . The Next Thing They Should Notice Is That Matthew 1 ; 1 Starts Off With A Lie Read It .... It Starts From That Point On And Gives You A Whole Line Of It Being Joseph Blood Line It Says MaTTHEW 1 ; 16
In Fact That Matthew Didn't Write The Book Himself , And The Time After The Actual Event That The Book Was Recorded Shows The Inconsistency Of Matthew Alone And How He Was Liar , My Point Being That These Writings Were Plagarized From The Hebraic Writings Of The 22 Psalms Which Begins '' My God My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me ? Make Note That When This Verse , From Psalms 22 Was Being Copied Or Plagarized For The New Testament Matthew 27 ; 46 .. They Intentionally Did Not Put The Full Verse In From Psalms 22; 1 .. And The Hebrew Word Used For Roaring Is Sheagah , Sheh - Aw Gaw ,,



Under Strong # 07581 Meaning A Rumbling Or Moan ; -- Roaring . From Gav Sha'ag , Shaw- Ag ;, A Primitive Root , To Rumble Or Moam ; -- Mightily , Roar . You Must Ask Yourself At This Point , Why Would The Recorder Of Matthew Leave That Part Out ? The Answer Is Quite Simple How Could They Pass This Man Off On The Cross . Jesus Christ . As God Himself In Flesh Or God Incarnate AndHave Him Say And That '' Oh My God , I Cry In The Day Time But Thou Heareth Not ; And In The Night Season And Am Not Silent That Is Verse 2 ... But They Had A Specific Time Mentioned In Matthew 27 ; 46 The 9th Hour , According To Them , They Were Tring To Get The Crucifixion Done Before The Sabbath Came In .. But That Is Not In The Original Story . The Original Story Uses Day And Night , And This Individual In Psalms 22 , Is Implying That God Is Far Away From Him ,

 

[TehuTi]

This Is What He Says Out Of His Own Mouth , But You Don't Hear Me '' Or In Biblical Words But Thou Heareth Not . It Will Be HAard For Them To Maake This The Son Of God Who Was Crucified At The 9th Hour Before The Sabbath , If They Would Have Used The Full Verse And Chapter , They Would Have To Explain The Daytime Under Strong # 03119 Yowmam < > Yo - Mawm From # 3117 Daily ; - -- Daily ( By , In The Day - Time . A Common Word For During The Daylight Hours . And Ereb , En - Reb .
( Strong # 06153 From # 6150 Dusk ; -- + Day , Even ( - Ing , Tide ) The Word Night Comes From Strong # 03915 Layil . Lah - Yil ( Isa , 21 ; 11 ) Leyl ; Also Laylah
( Lah ; - Yel - Aw ) ; From The Same As # 3883 ; 03883 Luwl Properly . A Twist ( Away Of The Light ) I.E. Night ; Figuratively Adversity ; --( Mid . ) Night ( Season )



So It Is Clear In The 22nd Psalms That This Person Suffering . This Person Crying Out To God As '' My God '' Is Talking About Something He Does During The Daytime And In The Night Season . And That He Doesn't Ever Stop Crying . In His Own Words He Says '' And I Am Not Silent . This Does Not Match Up With What They Call The Messiah Prophecy '' Which Starts Off In Matthew 27; 46 Which Says And About The 9th Hour Jesus Cried With A Loud Voice . This Could Not Have Been Based On Psalms 22 The Story Of Jesus Christ Crucifixion . Somebody Borrowed The Words From The 22nd Chapter Tells Them What's Going To Happen To Them For Doing That , Talking One Portion And Ignoring The Other To Make Their Own Point ? Notice The Two Quote Number , Revelation 22 And Psalms 22 ,


Revelation 22; 19 , Also In The Book Of Matthew 5 ; 18 , Either That Is A Reference To The Book Of Revelation And Matthew Only Or It Apples To The Whole Bible And That Would Render The Author Of Matthew Guity , But I' m Not Finished As You Read On From Verse 2 To Verse 3 Of Psalms 22 .. < Stop >
Lets LQQK At Verse 4 Here . This Could Not Be Jesus By The Statement '' Our Father Trusted In Thee , They Trusted And You Dids Deliver Them '' Jesus Would Say Because He Would Be Talking To God '' My Father Our Ancestors Trusted You They Trusted And You Delivered Them '' Speaking Out Of The Hands Or Either The Babylonians Or The Egiptians . But That Is Not What Is Said Here . This Person Here Does Not Identify Himself As The Son Of God And No Way Could That Be Mistaken For Jesus Christ . Psalms 22 ; 5 - 6 . You're


Telling Me That Jesus Christ The Son Of God , In This Prophecy About Himself While Suffering On The Cross Says To God , '' I Am A Worm ... Jesus Calls Himself A Worm Or Maggot , And No Man , Psalms 22; 7 - 8 You See Another Portion That Who Ever Authored The Book Of Matthew Stole . Where Is Your God That He Is Being Challenged ? Matthew 27 ; 40 , Mattew 27; 42 , Mark 15 ; 30 , Mark 15 ; 32
You Get The Hint There Of How That Was Borrowed From Psalms With A Little Addition And A Little Extra Coloring . It Continues On To Say ; Psalms 22 ; 9
Again He Is Speaking To God , Saying You Delivered Me At Birth . Again You Find A Hint Toward Gods Intervention Towards The Birth Of This Individual Or A Special Kind Of Birth By The Hands Of God Like They Do With Jesus Where They Got It From

 

[TehuTi]

Psalms 22 ; 10 - 11 , ... Psalms 22 ; 1 , This Was Suppose To Be After The Trouble And He Was On The Cross Getting Ready To Give Up The Ghost HisDarkest Hour ,
Trouble Would Be Near When They Were Approaching The Garden To Get Jesus . That's When Then Would Be Near , When They Were Suppose To Betray Jesus With , A Kiss . Not Trouble Is Near . This Could Not Have Been Jesus Christ . He Then Continues On In Psalms 22; 11 And Say ; For There Is None To Help '' Then In
Psalms 22 ; 12 It States ; Many Bulls Have Compassed Me . Not Compass , But Like Encircle Me . Nowhere In The History Of The New Testament Have Bulls Circled Jesus . The Word There In Hebrew For Bull Is < Par > Or Par [ Pawr ] There Is No Record For Jesus Ever Being Surrounded By Bull . Again I Repeat This Is Not Talking About Jesus ! And Don't Tell Me It's Symbolism . Psalms 22; 12 , Note That In Verse 12 It Mentioned A Place Called ''


Bashan '' Under Strong # 01316 Aramic > Bashan Baw - Shawn ' , Which Is A Region East Of The Jordan . This Is Not At Golgotha ( Matthew 27; 33 ) Where The Cross Of Jesus Is Suppose To Be Standing . This Is Another Whole Place Being Mentioned Another Contradiction !
Matthew 27 ; 33 , < Are You Gether The '' Jest '' ( Idea ) Of What I Am Trying To Say Here , This Was Not Where Jesus Was Supposed To Have Been Crucifed . This Is A Different Place . This Man Was Surrounded By Bulls In A Different Place . >
Psalms 22 ; 13 No Animals Surrounded Jesus ' Cross . Opening TheirMouths Like Lions And Roaring And Tearing At Him Which Is What That Verse Implies . Psalms 22; 14 . This Has Nothing To Do With The Crucifixion Of Jesus But You Can See The Different Parts , Where They Stole It From AndIts Alluded To . The Stabbing Of The Side AndThe Wine . But It Is Talking More About Judas Who Was Thrown Off The Cliff And His Body Burst Asunder ( Acts 1; 18 ) < It Get Even Deeper Psalms 22;15

 

[TehuTi]

This Man Here Is About To Die . The Dust Of Death Means The Dawn Of Death . Death Is About To Approach Him Like The Sun Coming Up In The Morning . There Has Been No Mention Of A Crucifixion Here Yet . In Psalms 22 But So Far This Story Has No Tie To Jesus Christ New Testament Story Of The Crucifixion Other Than Eluded To It Or Borrowed From It , Psalms 22; 16 Now We Are Talking About A Crucifixion In The Book Of Psalms Of Someone And It Could Not Have Been Jesus According To The Rest Of The Story . Psalms 22 ; 17 He Is Telling Them That Now They Have Pierced Him Through The Hands And Feet , The People Are Staring Up Because They Could See His Bones Sticking Out . Psalms 22 ; 18 - 20 ..
This Man Is LQQKING To Survive , That Is Not What Jesus Said On The Cross '' Father Its Over It Is Done '' This Verse Said For God Not To Stay Too Far So He Could Rescue Him , He's Going To Reiterate In The Next Couple Of Verse Psalms 22; 20 .. Psalm 22; 2 ..


NowTheMythological Creature Exist , And God Hears Him From TheHorns Of The Unicorn Jesus Never Said None Of This . Note That This Is Not The Only Place This Mythological Creature Appears In The Bible . Unicorn Is Also Mentioned In The Following Verse , Job 39 ; 9 -10 , Psalms 29 ; 6 .. Psalms 92; 10 .. Psalms 22; 22 - 24 , From Psalms 22; 24 - 31 He Reiterates How He Would Be Alive Later . And How He Is Calling People To Praise . What Do You Think Is The Psalms That Follows It . None Other Than The 23rd Psalms . The Short 6 Verse From The Man Who Was Just Crucified And Allowed To Live , Had His Soul Restored . The Man Who Was Walking Through The Valley Through The Shadow Of Death And Feared No Evil Because God Was With Him 23 Psalms Support The Incident . How Could It Possibly Repeat The Same Exact Say Words My God , My God Why Has Thou Forsaken Me '' And When You Go To Matthew 27 ; 1 .

They Are Talking About The Next Moring . Matthew 27 ; 1 - 2 , The Mocking Of The Soldiers , The Casting Of Lots , Stripping Of His Robe , In Matthew 27; 27 - 28 , Yelling Out '' Let Him Be Crucified '' In Verse 22 . Talking About Him Bearing And Carrying A Cross In Verse 32 In Golgotha . Verse 35 How They Cast Lots . Verse 36 , They Sat Down And Watched Him Verse 39 '' And They That Passed By Regiled Him Wagging Their Heads '' From Psalms 22; 7 . Matthew 27; 43 , Psalms 22 ; 8 , Matthew 27 ; 50 The Breath Of What John 1 ; 1 In The Beginning Was The Word And The Word Was With God , AndThe Word Was God < Jesus Died At This Point According To Them >


This Whole Thing May Come As A Shock With Some Of You . Other Of You Will Say '' This Can't Be True '' ( These People Have What Is Called Tunnel Vision And Blind Faith ) However , In Your Bible According To John 8 ; 32 That Is Free Of The Lies And Misnterpretations . <The Hyped Up Comm,entaries , Alterations , Word Maniplations , Poor Translations . And Out Right Lies To Keep You Mentally In Prison From The Truth
So What Is The Symbolism Of The 9th Hour Or The Crucifixion ?
According To Luke 23 ; 44 - 45 That The Sun / Son Had Died And So There Was Darkness . And LQQK How Many Hours This Lasted For ; Three . The Same Story Of Darkness At Their Death Was Told By The Hindus Of Khrishna , The Buddha , The Greeks Or Hercules The Mexicans Or Quetzalcoatl . And Infinitum ,


Lomg Before Jesus . When He Die . Jesus Descended Into Hell , Just Like The Earlier Krishna , Zoroaster , Osiris . Horus . Adonis / Tammuz , Bacchus , Hercules , Mercury And So On . He Then Rose From The Dead Like The Earlier Krishna , Buddha , Zoroaster , Adonis / Tammuz , Osiris , Mithra , Hercules , And Balder . Jesus Was Symbolically Crucified At Easter Because This Is The Spring Equinox When The Sun ( Jesus ) Enters . The Astrological Sign Of Aries , The Ram Or The Lamb . The Lamb In The Book Of Revelation Is The Same Symbol As Found In Chapter 22 ; 3

 

[michel]

The Whole Crucifixion Story Was A Play Created By Joseph Flavius Piso , Which I Will Elaborate Further On Within This Post He Got His Idea From The 2nd Psalms Written By A Chief Magician Upon Aigeleth Shahar A Psalm Of David They Call It '' Anguish And Praise '' They Refer To This As A Psalm Of David .

That's one of the wonders and benefits of tollerance; you can believe whatver you like, and if it works for you, then so be it.

But your belief isn't mine.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

[How do] you reconcile a spiritual second coming with the Bible, how do Baha'is reconcile an actual crucifixion with the Quran?

We Baha'is see the Second Coming of the Christ Spirit as having already occurred about a century and a half ago, as various Biblical time prophecies promised it would! And the beginnings of the Baha'i Faith fulfill these. (The prophecies can be seen at: http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled .)

As to the crucifixion, which we stipulate as having really happened, IOV the Qur'anic statements about Christ's not being killed in fact don't deny the Crucifixion but instead are speaking of the failure of the Romans and Jews to stamp out the spirit and the existence of Christ's Message specifically and Christianity generally. (This is explained in more detail in the Baha'i scriptures, in 'Abdu'l-Baha's Some Answered Questions; you can find it here: www.reference.bahai.org .)

Best,

Bruce

 

[A. Leaf]

So it says he was raised, he saw Mary and a few others, then departed. Jumped on his donkey and went to pastures new? So, if he was raised and departed, did he receive eternal life?

'Others say: 'In the far off Himalayas there are Yogis who are miracle workers, they have been living their for Hundreds of Years and controlling the forces of nature; are they not greater or at least equal to Maharishi.
TAKEN FROM:In Days of Great Peace, Mouni Sadhu. The Highest Yoga as Lived.

So if Christ was still around, what would one expect?
If reincarnated, at what age would he come to terms with himself.

If he had always been around and was with the water of life, what miracles would be expected of him, maybe in times gone past, waiting for the comforter, spirit of Truth, he may of got caught up in things that were not righteous themselves. But may believe they were right. If he were still alive and somewhere in the Middle East, maybe he might have become a Muslim, happy with the method of prayer and the faithfulness of Real Muslims. Dont forget he is an Arab/Jew. If I believed through thought and meditation that he were here, but was involved in something that was wrong would it be my duty to get him to stop that something?
Would people expect to see holes in his hands and feet if he had been alive all this time? Or after such a great space of time would he be totally healed with no scars at all? If reincarnated then would he be a mirror image of his old self? What would happen if he has been betrayed by close loved ones? what sort of mental state would he be in? Would it be that if reincarnation existed that those responsible at the time of his crucifixion would recognize his face? and might go into melt down? Maybe his Idea of the West would not be a great one where Materialism is quite strife. So then a clash of Civilizations may enter his mind?

Perhaps I always wanted to be a Science Fiction Writer.

 

[cturne]

The crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) - fact. Why do I believe that - besides the fact that I have faith- people do not die for a lie. Most of the apostles - eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion and resurrection - were killed for their beliefs. If they had made it up they would have recanted their story, rather than suffer the torture and deaths that they did.

 

[pladecalvo]

The crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) - fact. Why do I believe that - besides the fact that I have faith- people do not die for a lie. Most of the apostles - eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion and resurrection - were killed for their beliefs. If they had made it up they would have recanted their story, rather than suffer the torture and deaths that they did.

"People don't die for a lie" Really! What about:
Jim Jones: 900 died for their beliefs in his lies.
David Koresh: 90 here.
Order of the Solar Temple: 74 at this one.
Heavens Gate: 39 here............and there are many other examples. Unfortunately, many people are prepared to die for what they believe to be the truth when in fact, it's only myth.

 

[cturne]

"People don't die for a lie" Really! What about:
Jim Jones: 900 died for their beliefs in his lies.
David Koresh: 90 here.
Order of the Solar Temple: 74 at this one.
Heavens Gate: 39 here............and there are many other examples. Unfortunately, many people are prepared to die for what they believe to be the truth when in fact, it's only myth.

Those were suicides - there is a difference. The apostles didn't commit suicide. They were told to stop preaching or they would be killed. They continued to preach.

 

[Halcyon]

Those were suicides - there is a difference. The apostles didn't commit suicide. They were told to stop preaching or they would be killed. They continued to preach.

The problem with that is, from a purely historical perspective, there is about as much evidence for the lives and deaths of the apostles as there is for the life and death of Jesus. It all comes from the same tradition.

 

[logician]

There's really no historical evidence whatsoever that a cruciFICTION took place of a supposed man named Jesus. The general story itself is an obvious fabrication - there are many elements of it that just plain could not have happened.

 

[pladecalvo]

Those were suicides - there is a difference. The apostles didn't commit suicide. They were told to stop preaching or they would be killed. They continued to preach.

You said that people don't die for a myth. Well they do. The people I mention died for a myth. Whether you commit suicide for your beliefs or are killed by someone else for your beliefs matters not. Both are self-inflicted in a manner of speaking.

 

[pladecalvo]

The problem with that is, from a purely historical perspective, there is about as much evidence for the lives and deaths of the apostles as there is for the life and death of Jesus. It all comes from the same tradition.

Absolutely right! No evidence for it at all, outside of Christianity.

 

[cturne]

You said that people don't die for a myth. Well they do. The people I mention died for a myth. Whether you commit suicide for your beliefs or are killed by someone else for your beliefs matters not. Both are self-inflicted in a manner of speaking.

There is a world of difference between committing suicide and being murdered for your beliefs. They are not both self-inflicted. But I know you can't be convinced - just as I stand firmly in my beliefs.

 

[pladecalvo]

There is a world of difference between committing suicide and being murdered for your beliefs. They are not both self-inflicted. But I know you can't be convinced - just as I stand firmly in my beliefs.

You are missing the whole point of my reply to your post. The statement that you made is not true. People DO die for myths. You said that because your apostles died for their beliefs then what they believed in must have been true. Jim Jones' followers died for their beliefs but it didn't make their beliefs true did it, any more than the death of your apostles (if they existed) makes Jesus or the crucifixion 'true'.

 

[lew0049]

To say that Jesus's crucifixion is fiction is literally ignorant. If you are to throw out the life/crucifixion of Jesus, you would literally be throwing out what we know about ancient history. The crucifixion of Jesus was documented by Christians and many non-Christians. Outside of the Bible, there are 39 other historical sources that specifical talk about crucifixion of Jesus. I have not read many of the above comments from people, BUT I will say that to anyone that believes the crucifixion was a hoax/myth, it is very important to research these topics. For example, read "the case for Christ." Thirteen well-known and reputable historians/scholars talk about issues such as this based on history.

 

[lew0049]

Pladecalvo:
There is a BIG difference between someone dying for a belief and someone dying to restore a historical fact that they witnessed. By the way, an historical fact that brought the apostles absolutely no benefit except suffering/death. It is not like they all came together and decided to, in a sense, make up a story and commit suicicide. To even say something that questions if the apostles existed shows that you have not done any historical research at all. If you did you would find 39 sources (that are NON-Christians) outside of the Bible that talk in detail about Jesus and the apostles. Do you honestly believe that these 39 other sources (historical documents) are false?