The Whole Crucifixion Story Fact's Or Fiction ?

[lew0049]

The life/crucifixion of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the beliefs of Christians in your arguement. Meaning, the life of Jesus is an historical fact. Research helps.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

When One Has To Believe It Mean He / She Doesn't Know Only Believe

True belief in Islam is Knowing without a doubt. Like what Allah says about the Quran Surah Baqarah verses 1-3

 

[lew0049]

It seems that another "true belief" in Islam would be that God spoke to Mohammad.

 

[lew0049]

without a doubt that is.

 

[TehuTi]

True belief in Islam is Knowing without a doubt. Like what Allah says about the Quran Surah Baqarah verses 1-3

Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin

 

[TehuTi]

True belief in Islam is Knowing without a doubt. Like what Allah says about the Quran Surah Baqarah verses 1-3

Al Qur'aan 17 ; 81 , And I Quote ; And Say The Facts Beyond Any Doubt Have Come And False Ways Were To Vanish In Time

 

[McBell]

To say that Jesus's crucifixion is fiction is literally ignorant. If you are to throw out the life/crucifixion of Jesus, you would literally be throwing out what we know about ancient history. The crucifixion of Jesus was documented by Christians and many non-Christians. Outside of the Bible, there are 39 other historical sources that specifical talk about crucifixion of Jesus. I have not read many of the above comments from people, BUT I will say that to anyone that believes the crucifixion was a hoax/myth, it is very important to research these topics. For example, read "the case for Christ." Thirteen well-known and reputable historians/scholars talk about issues such as this based on history.

Would you be so kind as to present some of these 39 instances?
For I have been searching for several years now and have yet to find anything that comes anywhere near what you claim these 39 sources are.

 

[pladecalvo]

Pladecalvo:
There is a BIG difference between someone dying for a belief and someone dying to restore a historical fact that they witnessed. By the way, an historical fact that brought the apostles absolutely no benefit except suffering/death. It is not like they all came together and decided to, in a sense, make up a story and commit suicicide. To even say something that questions if the apostles existed shows that you have not done any historical research at all. If you did you would find 39 sources (that are NON-Christians) outside of the Bible that talk in detail about Jesus and the apostles. Do you honestly believe that these 39 other sources (historical documents) are false?

Then go ahead and produce your 39 sources of non-christian historical documents. As for not reseaching the subject, I have spent the last 40 years researching it. Historians have spent much longer than that researching it. They haven't managed to find these 'histoical non-christian documents' that proves that your biblical Jesus existed so if you have found them, you could be on the verge of providing some earth shattering evidence. Let's see it dude.

 

[TehuTi]

Ans ; There is no type of Nail That They Could Have used to Support A Man Like Jesus' Size , Without Ripping Through His , Plams Or Shattering His Bones. Again Jesus was Not Crucified . It's A Myth . A Play Created By Joseph Flavius. But The kind of Nailsused by Romans Which Measure 8 To 10 Inches . It was Hammered Through The Hands And Feet Of The Accused Victimes Sentenced To Death . In Order For The Weight Of The Body To Be Supported . Shroudist State That The Nail Had To Pass Through The Wrist In What Is Called The Despot's Space , A Nail This Size WouldShatter Someone's Wrist Bones , Then What Suport Do You Think They Would Have Had Then ? Jesus Should Have Been Dead Within An Hour, Because His Diaphram Would Have Collapes DueTo His Dead Weight Body . His Diaphram Could Have Not Supported His Body Weight . Note The Cruxifixion Lasted For Three Hours Before He Dies .

 

[TehuTi]

Ans ; According To The New Testament , In Numerous Places. It Says Jesus Was Hung On Tree .
Acts 5 ; 30 <>The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
Acts10 ; 39 <> And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree
1Peter 2 ; 24 <> who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed
John 19 ; 17 <> They took Jesus therefore: and he went out, bearing the cross for himself, unto the place called The place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha


Carry , To Put Upon One's Self ( Something ) To Be Carried And The Word Being Used For '' Cross '' In Greek Staurous, Meaning '' An Upright Stake '' From The Root Word Histemi , Meaning '' To Cause Or MakeStand'' .
According To The New Encylopedia Britannica Volume 19 Published By Helen Hemingway , Bentica On Page 918 , Concerning The Weight Of Wood , It Says ;
Common Temperate Climate Woods Range In Weight , From About 300 To 900 Kilograms Per Cubic Metre , ( 20 - 55 Pounds Per Cubic Foot ) In Air - Dry Condition , But Lighter And Heavier Woods Exist In The Tropics , ( 80 - 1 ,300 Kilogram Per Pubic Metre On 10 - 80 Pounds Per Cubic Foot ) , Such As Balsa And Lignum Vitae , Respectively . ;... The Lightest Kind Of Wood Is Balsa Wood , Which Is Used Making Model Airplanes , Life Rafts And Buoys . That Kind Of Wood Could Not Have Been Used , Because The Lightest Kind Of Wood Weighs Up To 20Lbs . Per Cubic Foot . A Cross Made Our Of Balsa Could Not Have Supported Yashua's ( Jesus ) Weight Not If You Say It Was A Heavier Kind Of Wood , Like Oak , That Was Used , When You Would Have To Take Into Consideration That The Wood Would Have Been To Heavy For Yashu'a ( Jesus ) , Who Was Beaten And Weakened


Matthew 26 ; 67 <> Then did they spit in his face and buffet him: and some smote him with the palms of their hands
Matthew 27 ; 26 <> Then released he unto them Barabbas; but Jesus he scourged and delivered to be crucified.
Matthew 27 ; 30 <> And they spat upon him, and took the reed and smote him on the head.
Mark 15 ; 19 <> And they smote his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
Luke 22 ; 63 <> And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and beat him


The Greek Word Used For '' Smote '' Is Tupto Meaning '' Smite , Beat , Strike , Wound , '' And The Greek Word Used For '' Smote'' In Luke 22 ; 63 Is Dero Meaning '' To Beat , Smite , To Flay , To Skin , To Beat , Thrash . The Greek Word Used For '' Scourged '' Is Phragello Meaning '' To Whip . '' After Being Beaten And Skinned , He Was Too Weak To Carry A Corss 18 Feet 6 Inches Tall , With A Cross Beam Of 6 Feet 6 Inches Long . Now Wood Is Cut In 2x4 , 4x4 And So On , Whatever Size Wood Is Used For Building . With Its Length Varying According To The Length That Is Needed . In Order For The Cross To Have Been Strong Enough To Hold A Man Of His Size It Would Have Had To Have Been Thicker Than A 2X4 Or


4x4 To Support His Weight . How Was It Possible For Yashua Or Jesus . Who Had Been Straved And Beaten , To Have Carried A Tree - Sized Cross 6'4'' Inches Wide And 18'2 Inches Tall . Or An Actual Tree To Galgotha Matthew 27 ; 33 ?
Ques ; How Could Yashua ( Jesus ) Carry The Cross To Calvary , When According To The Holy Bible He Was Starved First , Then Beaten , Then Made To Bear His Own Cross ?
According To John 19 ; 17 Yashua ( Jesus ) Carried His Own Cross .
John 19 ; 17 <>They took Jesus therefore: and he went out, bearing the cross for himself, unto the place called The place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha:



It Is Clear That According To John 19 ; 17 Yashua Bared His Own Cross , Even If Simeon ( 17 B.C. - 46 A.D. ) Had A Good Night's Sleep And Ate A Good Meal The Next Day . He Still Wouldn't Have The Strength To Carry A Cross Of That Size And Weight Yashua And Simeon Together Couldn't Even Carry The Cross All The Way To Calvary , ( According To '' Jerusalem '' , By Colin Thuborn , On Page 91 , It States ; The Traditional Route Of Christ To Calvary Begins At The Convent Of The Sisters Of Zion , Near The Ruins Of Antonia -- The Fortress Raised By Herod On A Scarp Above The Temple . ) .


< This Means He Would Have To Carry The Cross Approximately 1,775 Feet Or 0.3195 Miles . Now , The So - Called Self Righteous Among You Will Try To Say That Because Jesus Was The Son Of God , He Was Super Human , And He Had Super Human Strength . However According To Your Bible He Was Reduced To A Man . He Was Starved , Then Scourged Meaning Whipped . John 19 ; 1 <> Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
Then Made To Carry The Cross John 19 ; 17 . So , Even With The Help Of Simeon . It Would Have Taken Samson To Carry A Cross That Size , Weight , And Distance

 

[pladecalvo]

To say that Jesus's crucifixion is fiction is literally ignorant. If you are to throw out the life/crucifixion of Jesus, you would literally be throwing out what we know about ancient history. The crucifixion of Jesus was documented by Christians and many non-Christians. Outside of the Bible, there are 39 other historical sources that specifical talk about crucifixion of Jesus. I have not read many of the above comments from people, BUT I will say that to anyone that believes the crucifixion was a hoax/myth, it is very important to research these topics. For example, read "the case for Christ." Thirteen well-known and reputable historians/scholars talk about issues such as this based on history.

So your argument is, because people wrote about your Jesus and his crucifixion, it must be true. Lets apply that argument to other 'historical' characters.

People built beliefs around Osiris and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Osiris existed.

People built beliefs around Hercules and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Hercules existed.

People built beliefs around Krishna and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Krishna existed.

People built beliefs around Luke Skywalker and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to YOUR argument, Luke existed.

Hey Everyone, Zues is real!

We know he is the master of Mount Olympus because of the prophecies he fulfilled in Homer's Illiad. It was Zues' will that Troy fall to the Greeks, as is written in the Illiad. The Illiad documents how Troy fell. Thus, the Illiad proves that Zues is real.

Since the Illiad features real places, it's a "historical document". The existence of Zues is historically varified!

All hail mighty Zues!

 

[McBell]

For example, read "the case for Christ." Thirteen well-known and reputable historians/scholars talk about issues such as this based on history.

Interestingly enough, the book you refer to here The Case For Christ is nothing more than a preaching to the choir.

Review of said book

The case against 'The Case For Christ'

Nonsensical Case for Christ

Shows how Josephus could not have been the eye witness 'The Case For Christ' makes him to be:
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Strobels_Case_for_Christ.htm

So it seems as though your "research" is little more than parroting the not so honest work of others.

 

[lew0049]

Your previous examples are completely irrelevant and out of context. I honestly don't even know how to respond because obviously you have never read ANYTHING regarding history. First, I hope you understand that basically every historian in the world confirms that Jesus lived. Second, since you seem to research/look up so much information, you would know that people 2,000 years ago did not write to start a belief - instead people wrote things that were historical significant - informative documents. Also, it is very interesting that there is NO evidence/historical documents during that time which refute Jesus. Wow, I just looked back at your statements again and the best advice I can give is to research. I am not going to waste my time when you are comparing Zeus and Luke Skywalker to Jesus.

Just to illustrate how out of scope your response was -
People built beliefs around Alexander the Great and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to MY argument, Alexander the Great existed.
People built beliefs around Napolean and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to MY argument, Napolean existed.

Hmmm, I guess you would argue that they didn't live as well. Especially since the first historical document of Alexander the Great was nearly 100 years after he lived (way shorter compared to Jesus).

 

[lew0049]

refute that Jesus lived that is.

 

[lew0049]

I referred to "A case for christ" because I found it an interesting read. It is one of MANY books I have read regarding the issue. Preaching to the choir though? Definitely not. Any book can be heavily scrutinized and I'm sure every book is. Does this take away from the content? Judge for yourself by comparing the content to other books as I have. Read reports from world-known historians.

 

[lew0049]

Oh and I will give you the sources when I wake up. Sleep for me

 

[McBell]

I referred to "A case for christ" because I found it an interesting read. It is one of MANY books I have read regarding the issue. Preaching to the choir though? Definitely not. Any book can be heavily scrutinized and I'm sure every book is. Does this take away from the content? Judge for yourself by comparing the content to other books as I have. Read reports from world-known historians.

When the last link flat out shows how the author is flat out wrong with his claim, then yes it takes away from the content.

In fact, it shows the content is merely a bunch of wishful thinking on the part of the author. So yes, it is in fact preaching to the choir.

 

[Ozzie]

that makes your opinion much more valid to me. The product of your decision is not contigent upon your emotional desires but academic in nature. I would be as bold as to say that christians that answer this question, by the nature of the importance of the question to the Christian faith, have a jaded answer in that it is anti-academic in nature because of the emotional desire of Christian for this to be so.

Is it of academic interest that to eliminate any of the elements you suggest the crucifixion story is embellished with would lessen its meaning?

 

[pladecalvo]

Your previous examples are completely irrelevant and out of context. I honestly don't even know how to respond because obviously you have never read ANYTHING regarding history.

The obvious difference between my research and yours is that mine comes from unbiased sources.

First, I hope you understand that basically every historian in the world confirms that Jesus lived.

Every Historian! Well heres one that doesn't. http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2006/5/31/jesusNeverLivedSpeakerSays

...so that destroys that statement without even trying too hard.

Second, since you seem to research/look up so much information, you would know that people 2,000 years ago did not write to start a belief - instead people wrote things that were historical significant - informative documents.

Then where are these historical informative documents that prove that your Jesus existed?

Also, it is very interesting that there is NO evidence/historical documents during that time which refute Jesus.

You are wrong again! Many historians and people of note refuted the gospel stories.
Celsus, in late 2nd century, attacked the Gospels as fiction based on myths :
"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"

Bardesanes, in mid 2nd century, denied that Christ was physical :
"...assert that the body of the Saviour was spiritual;

Minucius Felix, in mid 2nd century, explicitly denies the incarnation and crucifixion along with other horrible accusations.

Tatian, in later 2nd century, compared Christianity with pagan mythology and wrote:
“Compare you own stories with our narratives. Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories”

Dionysius of Corinth, in late 2nd century,
claims Christians were changing and faking his own letters just as they had changed the "scriptures of the Lord ".

Caius, claimed the truth about Jesus was falsified from the late 2nd century :
"For they say that ... from ... Zephyrinus the truth was falsified ..."

Porphyry, in late 3rd century, claimed the Gospels were invented :
"... the evangelists were inventors – not historians”

Julian, in the 4th century, claimed Jesus was spurious and counterfeit :
"why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice "
That's an educated Roman Emperor who had read the history etc.

But somehow, apologists still claim no one refuted the stories of Christians.

The facts are the exact opposite - many critics attacked the stories, often calling them FICTION !

FICTION.

Wow, I just looked back at your statements again and the best advice I can give is to research.

I would avise you to do the same.

I am not going to waste my time when you are comparing Zeus and Luke Skywalker to Jesus.

Oh dear! You just don't get it do you? :thud:

Just to illustrate how out of scope your response was -
People built beliefs around Alexander the Great and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to MY argument, Alexander the Great existed.
People built beliefs around Napolean and wrote much about him.
Therefore, according to MY argument, Napolean existed.

The evidence for Alexander are the records of his battles, the busts that were made of him by eyewitnesses, coins, various inscriptions on the walls of the city he built. Ditto for Napoleon. We have eyewitness accounts for them. There are none for your Jesus outside of the bible or Christianity.

Hmmm, I guess you would argue that they didn't live as well. Especially since the first historical document of Alexander the Great was nearly 100 years after he lived (way shorter compared to Jesus).

Where are these 'historical accounts' of your Jesus that you keep refering to? If he existed and was crucified by the Romans then there would have been a record of it in the Roman archive for that time....there isn't. So lets see these ground breaking 'historical documents' that you have to support his existence. I assure you that the whole world would be interested in seeing them.

The crucifixtion is a myth. Just look at what was supposed to have happened:
Earthquakes
day turned into night
Graves opening
Zombies walking through Jerusalem........but strangely enough, outside of Christian sources, everybody in Jerusalem seemed to have missed these great events. None of them were recorded by any of the pagan historians or scholars that were around at that time. Don't you find that a little strange?

Have you ever thought about how bizarre the crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself:
"Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...
Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them. I HATE IT! I tried killing all the humans and animals once in the flood. That certainly did not fix the problem. So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now."

It makes no sense, does it? Why would an all-knowing being need to have humans kill himself (Jesus is God, after all) to make himself happy? Especially since it is a perfect God who set the whole thing in motion exactly the way he wanted it? The whole story of the crucifixion is absurd from top to bottom if you actually stop to think about it.
If you believe the story of Jesus, Jesus clearly knew that he is God. In John chapter 14, verse 8 we find this:
Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father."
So it makes you wonder about Jesus' famous lamenation in Matthew 27:46:
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Since Jesus is God, what he really must have meant is: "Myself, myself, why have I forsaken me?" Which of course makes absolutely no sense.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

I liked the psalms of David topic that was added, what I am about to say is only LDS doctrine and please if I get it wrong correct it but this is from what I understand from the scriptures:

The Gospel of Jesus Christ or Messiah was thought from the beginning of time to Adam and his posterity. If this was not so than why believe in any religion all religion weather it be Buddhism, wicken, catholic, Islam, or whatever it may be has parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You may ask but in what form in many some changed over time though stories, pictures, oral history as time went through the story changed as mankind separated they changed the stories and the teachings over time, how that was done I do not know so lets look at some scriptures for this evidence:

Mosses 5:1-13:

1 And it came to pass that after I, the Lord God, had driven them out, that Adam began to till the earth, and to have dominion over all the beasts of the field, and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow, as I the Lord had commanded him. And Eve, also, his wife, did labor with him.
2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.
3 And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters.
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.
9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.
13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they cloved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

as you can see that from the beginning was given the Gosple of Salvation that only though the son of God can all man kind be saved. In verse 13 you can see that people were very easly swaid from the truth and things that are most pershus was lost. Lets look at something in the New Testament that will bring more light. Galatians 3:6-29:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man&#8217;s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was badded because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all bone in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ&#8217;s, then are ye Abraham&#8217;s bseed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now as you can see that the children of man were under a "schoolmaster" this is very important, what dose a school do? It teaches us the things that we need to know God but were did the curse come from well in Exodus 34:1-2 JST gives us that answer:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two other tables of stone, like unto the first, and I will write upon them also, the words of the law, according as they were written at the first on the tables which thou brakest; but it shall not be according to the first, for I will take away the priesthood out of their midst; therefore my holy order, and the ordinances thereof, shall not go before them; for my presence shall not go up in their midst, lest I destroy them.
2 But I will give unto them the law as at the first, but it shall be after the law of a carnal commandment; for I have sworn in my wrath, that they shall not enter into my presence, into my rest, in the days of their pilgrimage. Therefore do as I have commanded thee, and be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai,

Now this clears things up!! The question comes up quite a bit well two that I can thank of one being do we need the priesthood of God? And dose it need to be authorized like a drivers licends by God? Yes on both parts we each need the priesthood in order to stand by God or "we will be destroyed" this curse (know that curse for God is to take away blessings that he gave the children of men) was given for the people didn't understand the what&#8217;s known as the higher law. So in order to answer the question of: The whole Crucifixion story fact or fiction? I will answer fact for without it we will be destroyed one can find the answer like I did though the holy ghost which tell only truth and to do good continually.