The whole God and Evil thing with God.

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?

 

[Quintessence]

Presuming by "God" you mean the one-god of the Abrahamic monotheist religions, I won't presume to speak for those peoples about their god. I've heard all sorts of different perspectives from them, but as their theology is not my own, it is not so much my concern how they reconcile it or understand their deity. All I know is that my theology is such that I do not have this "problem of evil" issue as they sometimes do.

 

[George-ananda]

I voted 'Yes'. This is the old Problem of Evil question that pops up regularly. Here are some thoughts from my eastern non-dual (God and creation are not-two) perspective. (I believe in reincarnation and that we all have a spark of God/Brahman consciousness as our core.)


I look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things and temporary sufferings make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

I think to understand the answer to the 'Problem of Evil' we need to start thinking in more eastern ways.

1) That we live for eons in a soul developing process; not one body's duration. In that perspective any suffering in one life is short and temporary in this grander view. And even an unfortunate life and death has lessons for that soul and for those seeing and interacting with the unfortunate life.

2) That such things are not as random as they appear. There is chain of cause and effect through time we can not see.

3) That those currently living an unfortunate life will have victory 'enlightenment' at the end of the challenges.

4) That it is God at the core of everything and it is He who experiences the temporary good and bad fortunes. It is ultimately not Him imposing it on other separate beings. It is His play/drama where He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself but this play ends with a happy ending for all. In any great play/drama there is always drama/suffering in the middle.

 

[RedDragon94]

If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

If you remember from the Biblical account, God created everything perfect and then we deviated from his perfect will. God's plan is to redeem his creation from the deviation. That's the overarching plan. God's plan does include sin, but what kind of story would it be without a protagonist and antagonist? God is glorified through the situation that man is in because he's a God of redemption and intervention.

In case you're wondering, no, God did not cause Lucifer to choose pride. Lucifer chose that for himself. Then he was cast down, deceived man, and has been putting the blame on God ever since.

Everything has it's origin in God, yet, not everything creation produced was conceived by him.

 

[Rival]

If you remember from the Biblical account, God created everything perfect and then we deviated from his perfect will. God's plan is to redeem his creation from the deviation. That's the overarching plan. God's plan does include sin, but what kind of story would it be without a protagonist and antagonist? God is glorified through the situation that man is in because he's a God of redemption and intervention.

In case you're wondering, no, God did not cause Lucifer to choose pride. Lucifer chose that for himself. Then he was cast down, deceived man, and has been putting the blame on God ever since.

Everything has it's origin in God, yet, not everything creation produced was conceived by him.

This is all Christian stuff though. Want to remind people that this isn't the case in Judaism.

 

[RedDragon94]

This is all Christian stuff though. Want to remind people that this isn't the case in Judaism.

Agreed.

 

[viole]

If you remember from the Biblical account, God created everything perfect and then we deviated from his perfect will. God's plan is to redeem his creation from the deviation. That's the overarching plan. God's plan does include sin, but what kind of story would it be without a protagonist and antagonist? God is glorified through the situation that man is in because he's a God of redemption and intervention.

In case you're wondering, no, God did not cause Lucifer to choose pride. Lucifer chose that for himself. Then he was cast down, deceived man, and has been putting the blame on God ever since.

Everything has it's origin in God, yet, not everything creation produced was conceived by him.

How can something perfect deviate from perfection?

Since I can think of something that outperforms it, namely something perfect that does not deviate from perfection, we can conclude that what God did was not perfect to start with. But how can then a perfect being create not perfect things? Again, I can think of a perfect being that outperforms Him.

Funny how some Theists (not necessarily you) believe the ontological argument is compelling, while not realizing that it undermines everything they believe in.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

If you remember from the Biblical account, God created everything perfect and then we deviated from his perfect will. God's plan is to redeem his creation from the deviation. That's the overarching plan. God's plan does include sin, but what kind of story would it be without a protagonist and antagonist? God is glorified through the situation that man is in because he's a God of redemption and intervention.

In case you're wondering, no, God did not cause Lucifer to choose pride. Lucifer chose that for himself. Then he was cast down, deceived man, and has been putting the blame on God ever since.

Everything has it's origin in God, yet, not everything creation produced was conceived by him.

But it's allowed to go on as it does because of him. He set all things in motion knowing full well what would happen, how it would happen ect. He doesn't escape blame just because he didn't "Directly" cause someone to do something evil.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If there's a god, I doubt humans have the cognitive capacity to even scratch the surface of understanding the perceptions and motivations of such an entity. In other words, I suspect speculating about god's attributes and perspectives in terms of humans' attributes and perspectives, is probably a pretty silly and, ultimately, meaningless exercise.

 

[RedDragon94]

How can something perfect deviate from perfection?

Although we were perfect, we were not unable to change. Unlike God, who is unable to change.

Since I can think of something that outperforms it, namely something perfect that does not deviate from perfection, we can conclude that what God did was not perfect to start with. But how can then a perfect being create not perfect things? Again, I can think of a perfect being that outperforms Him.

What/who?

Funny how some Theists (not necessarily you) believe the ontological argument is compelling, while not realizing that it undermines everything they believe in.

Right, I don't like Anselm.

 

[RedDragon94]

But it's allowed to go on as it does because of him. He set all things in motion knowing full well what would happen, how it would happen ect. He doesn't escape blame just because he didn't "Directly" cause someone to do something evil.

God doesn't choose anything for us. We can do otherwise, we just choose not to.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

If there's a god, I doubt humans have the cognitive capacity to even scratch the surface of understanding the perceptions and motivations of such an entity. In other words, I suspect speculating about god's attributes and perspectives in terms of humans' attributes and perspectives, is probably a pretty silly and, ultimately, meaningless exercise.

It's not exactly hard to put yourself in the mindset of a god.

 

[viole]

Although we were perfect, we were not unable to change. Unlike God, who is unable to change.

So, two equally perfect things can have different properties? Namely, being able to change and not being able to change?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

God doesn't choose anything for us. We can do otherwise, we just choose not to.

I feel like you've entirely missed my point.

 

[RedDragon94]

So, two equally perfect things can have different properties? Namely, being able to change and not being able to change?

Ciao

- viole

Yes. Differing qualities do not affect the overall quality.

 

[RedDragon94]

I feel like you've entirely missed my point.

No, I think I know what you're saying. If God created everything and he's sovereign why not say he's to blame for everything. Right? It's just, that undermines the whole purpose for why we're here. God receives love and glory from human decisions. They matter.

 

[viole]

Yes. Differing qualities do not affect the overall quality.

So, why did He not create beings that cannot change? After all, when He said that He made us in His image, He should have warned us that this was not entirely accurate and that there were some caveats.

Therefore, by making us unable to change, He would have possibly preserved perfection, while making us closer to Him and while avoiding that horrible mess and unnecessary complication that our ability to change caused.

So, are you sure that He knew what He was doing?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

No, I think I know what you're saying. If God created everything and he's sovereign why not say he's to blame for everything. Right? It's just, that undermines the whole purpose for why we're here. God receives love and glory from human decisions. They matter.

How can a perfect being receive glory from other beings, especially when they moved into imperfection? And glory against what? Would He feel less glorious if we did not exist?

What is the need to have glory, if that being is perfect to start with?

Ciao

- viole

 

[RedDragon94]

So, why did He not create beings that cannot change?

While we were created in God's image we were not created to be Gods.

Therefore, by making us unable to change, He would have possibly preserved perfection, while making us closer to Him and while avoiding that horrible mess and unnecessary complication that our ability to change caused.

There would have been no need for God had he made us immutable.

So, are you sure that He knew what He was doing?

Yes. That doesn't scare me.

How can a perfect being receive glory from other beings, especially when they moved into imperfection?

Because he receives glory through redemption.

Would He be less glorious if we did not exist?

No, just, it would be pointless to be a God without worshipers.

What is the need to have glory, if that being is perfect to start with?

Pleasure. That's the whole reason why God would seek glory as a perfect being, for his good pleasure.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

No, I think I know what you're saying. If God created everything and he's sovereign why not say he's to blame for everything. Right? It's just, that undermines the whole purpose for why we're here. God receives love and glory from human decisions. They matter.

Except in the universe with a god like yours there is no real choice. Everything has been decided beforehand based on the decisions god makes. It's simple cause and effect , he allows a chain of events or influences them to happen a certain way. If he does nothing than he has still made the choice for you as to how things are going to go because he is all knowing. He knows exactly what choice you are going to make and he has in essence made it for you by allowing all points to converge into one single possible future.

In other words your decisions are irrelevant one way or the other. Of course it undermines the whole purpose of why you think we're here because that purpose makes no sense. Why would god need glory or love from us? If you say god just wants that how can a truly omnipotent omniscient god want anything? That is just it, it can't. If you are going to say we empower god by giving him glory that isn't really an argument that works in favor of an omnipotent god now is it?