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The whole God and Evil thing with God.

Is God good?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 59.3%
  • No

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Neither good nor evil

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

But He also gets credit for everything. I've noticed on these old "problem of evil" threads, the poster tends to ignore all the good that G-d does.

Also, G-d has no responsibility for our own choices, that's on us.

IMO, good/evil don't really apply to G-d, He just does. Good & evil is for humans.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen.

The old argument of knowledge vs. control, again. Does knowing the creation's choices equal controlling the creation's choices? For me, the answer is no.

If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

And the positive ones, too. Love, admiration, charity, restraint, etc. Actually all the urges that G-d created us with are not absolutely good or evil. It is how we humans use them that determines that.

In Judaism, we say that humans are good with a prediction for evil.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly.

I wouldn't say that G-d gets upset, more disappointed. The concept of sin gives us the opportunity to choose better. We couldn't learn and grow if we didn't have the opportunity to make mistakes.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
He knows exactly what choice you are going to make and he has in essence made it for you by allowing all points to converge into one single possible future.
No. Just because I know you're going to do something doesn't mean I choose it for you.
Why would god need glory or love from us? If you say god just wants that how can a truly omnipotent omniscient god want anything?
Well he's not just going to do nothing. He's got all that power and he never uses it? :)
If you are going to say we empower god by giving him glory that isn't really an argument that works in favor of an omnipotent god now is it?
We don't empower God, we honor him. We honor him with the honor he is due and it's glorious.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
While we were created in God's image we were not created to be Gods.

Good to know that God is not the only perfect being possible.

There would have been no need for God had he made us immutable.

Logically incoherent. If He made us immutable, He would exist. Nobody does things without existing. Independently from there being a need or not for His existence.

Are you sure you are not speaking of belief in God, instead of God per se?

Yes. That doesn't scare me.

Why should that scare you, if He knew what He was doing?

Because he receives glory through redemption.

So, there was some missing glory to start with. Right?

I can only imagine God thinking: wow, today I got 1099 redemptions. Good day. I really needed that glory. I could not have been able to sleep tonight otherwise.

No, just, it would be pointless to be a God without worshipers.

So, if worshippers disappear, God will disappear, too?

Pleasure. That's the whole reason why God would seek glory as a perfect being, for his good pleasure.

Pleasure? That sounds a bit petty for a perfect being. Can He possibly feel lack of pleasure? And why does He need to seek anything?

Ciao

- viole
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
It's not exactly hard to put yourself in the mindset of a god.

Sure - all the simplistic, thinly-veiled ego projections which have sprung from the frail and primitive human psyche. That's just putting yourself in the mindset of another person, albeit, maybe with a few superpowers. I suspect many people aren't capable of perceiving or imagining a god any more complicated than that.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Good to know that God is not the only perfect being possible.
Well, there are some Christians who believe in entire sanctification (that is, perfection).
Logically incoherent. If He made us immutable, He would exist. Nobody does things without existing. Independently from there being a need or not for His existence.
What I mean is that there would be no reason for us to have a relationship with him.
Why should that scare you, if He knew what He was doing?
No. No no no, what you're saying about him doesn't scare me.
So, there was some missing glory to start with. Right?
No, just future glory.
I can only imagine God thinking: wow, today I got 1099 redemptions. Good day. I really needed that glory. I could not have been able to sleep otherwise.
Well, if God was as you describe him I imagine he would be pretty petty.
So, if worshippers disappear, God will disappear, too?
They will not disappear. Even if there are a minuscule amount of believers God will still be God.
Pleasure? That sounds a bit petty for a perfect being. Can He possibly feel lack of pleasure? And why does He need to seek anything?
Because he wants to. It pleases him to.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, there are some Christians who believe in entire sanctification (that is, perfection).

Again, good to know that God is not the only perfect being possible.

What I mean is that there would be no reason for us to have a relationship with him.

Do you have a personal relationship with Him? Can you ask Him what He thinks of evolution? Or whether the earth is old or young? What about the death penalty and gay marriages? Or what about Hell? Is that infinite torture or not?

What does He say? I want to cross check with other people claiming to have a personal relationship with Him, too.

No. No no no, what you're saying about him doesn't scare me.

And why should it scare you? I am claiming that He does not exist. How can that be scary?

No, just future glory.

Well, if God was as you describe him I imagine he would be pretty petty.

Well, you are describing Him. Not me. He seems to be in serious need of glory. The poor thing.

They will not disappear. Even if there are a minuscule amount of believers God will still be God.

Therefore, God was not God before He created the first worshipper. Right? But how could have He created him, is He was not God?

Because he wants to. It pleases him to.

Poor god. He reminds me of that guy ruling North Corea.
He smiles as long as you acknowledge his power. Or else....

Ciao

- viole
 
Last edited:

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Do you have a personal relationship with Him? Can you ask Him what He thinks of evolution? Or whether the earth is old or young? What about the death penalty and gay marriages?
A relationship with him is not determined by what I answer to political questions.
And why should it scare you? I am claiming that He does not exist. How can that be scary?
You brought up the topic of me being scared, and you're starting to sound pretty childish so...
Well, you are describing Him. Not me. He seems to be in serious need of glory.
Well you obviously aren't in a relationship with him so how would you know whether he needs glory?

You just got done saying he's in need of glory, which is a weak description of him.
Therefore, God was not God before He created the first worshipper. Right? But how could have He created Him, is He was not God?
Oh but he was. You can get rid of the religion but you cannot get rid of God.
Poor god. He reminds me of that guy ruling North Corea.
He smiles as long you acknowledge his power. Or else....
Would you say that you are a friend of God or an enemy of him?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Depends what type of God it is. I think the Zoroastrian God is close to ideal as it gets in monotheistic fashion. The Tao, if conceived of God, is outside of the moral realm. Abrahamic perceptions of God often have the problem of evil. I don't know how I would deal with such, if I was a believer unless I lost something of my own morals and good will in the process, but some people make it work regardless.
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
W
But He also gets credit for everything. I've noticed on these old "problem of evil" threads, the poster tends to ignore all the good that G-d does.

Also, G-d has no responsibility for our own choices, that's on us.

IMO, good/evil don't really apply to G-d, He just does. Good & evil is for humans.



The old argument of knowledge vs. control, again. Does knowing the creation's choices equal controlling the creation's choices? For me, the answer is no.



And the positive ones, too. Love, admiration, charity, restraint, etc. Actually all the urges that G-d created us with are not absolutely good or evil. It is how we humans use them that determines that.

In Judaism, we say that humans are good with a prediction for evil.



I wouldn't say that G-d gets upset, more disappointed. The concept of sin gives us the opportunity to choose better. We couldn't learn and grow if we didn't have the opportunity to make mistakes.
Whether or not he programed the good is pretty irrelevant to the whole problem of evil now isn't it? The issue here being evil is unwarranted to the extreme. If god is all powerful and all knowing then he becomes responsible for all actions because he could choose to change them and direct them in anyway. If you say humans have a predication for evil then god put it there without reason.

How can god be disappointed if he is all knowing? By definition he couldn't unless he is in fact not all knowing.

It is not simply knowing the creations choice. It is allowing that to happen when he could intervene and prevent unnecessary suffering easily. I'm saying that if God is all knowing, and all powerful then any and all suffering becomes his fault because he allows all the points to converge. He is responsible for letting all the events that lead up to the evil deed to transpire unabated. He has in essence caused all suffering trough inaction if that is that case.

Of course you can only argue he's allowed this all to happen through inaction if you ignore the concept of God being a creator. If he created all that is with full knowledge of what it will do then from the very beginning, whether you think it's the creation story of the bible, the big bang ect he set all events in motion to cause all this to happen.

From the very beginning he knew the whole chain and how if could be modified to avoid evil as a whole. From the very beginning he either chose to create a pretty lousy universe or simply put evil into creation because he wanted to. One would have to justify a lot of things to just let god get off the hook on this one. Quite possibly ad infinitum. You have to justify god creating evil on purpose more or less and the inclination to such behavior before you could even start trying to say " Oh well you know our fault not his."
A relationship with him is not determined by what I answer to political questions.

You brought up the topic of me being scared, and you're starting to sound pretty childish so...

Well you obviously aren't in a relationship with him so how would you know whether he needs glory?

You just got done saying he's in need of glory, which is a weak description of him.

Oh but he was. You can get rid of the religion but you cannot get rid of God.

Would you say that you are a friend of God or an enemy of him?

Well not to be rude dragon but i'm pretty sure viole is an atheist as it says "Gnostic Atheist" next to their name. I'm pretty sure they just don't believe in God period.
Jesus is an utter pacifist.

That damn hippy!

Sure - all the simplistic, thinly-veiled ego projections which have sprung from the frail and primitive human psyche. That's just putting yourself in the mindset of another person, albeit, maybe with a few superpowers. I suspect many people aren't capable of perceiving or imagining a god any more complicated than that.

I don't honestly think the concept of god presented in most religions is that far beyond a simple superhero honestly. Or Super villain depending on your taste.
 

idea

Question Everything
Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?

Here's the deal -
what is the most evil thing someone could do to you?

I think the most evil thing out there is to force someone to do something against their will - to grab their brain, manipulate it, and take away their ability to control their own body...

↑in order to keep people from willfully hurting one another, that is what God would have to do...He would have to become evil to stop evil...
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?


OK, sounds like you might be getting somewhere. How about trying this: Forget Blame. It is one of mankind's petty concepts. Concentrate on WHY God does it all this way. Put the pieces of the puzzle before you together. Don't feel your way through this. High Level Rational Thought is needed. One must remember that for God to be able to create all this that God has to be very very smart. So many times the focus on God is the emotional, however clearly, God has an intellectual half as well.
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
OK, sounds like you might be getting somewhere. How about trying this: Forget Blame. It is one of mankind's petty concepts. Concentrate on WHY God does it all this way. Put the pieces of the puzzle before you together. Don't feel your way through this. High Level Rational Thought is needed. One must remember that for God to be able to create all this that God has to be very very smart. So many times the focus on God is the emotional, however clearly, God has an intellectual half as well.
Well obviously this is more of an emotional argument to begin with. The rational argument is just that god straight up doesn't exist..
 

idea

Question Everything
... The rational argument is just that god straight up doesn't exist..

Considering the size of the universe, the amount of time the universe has existed... the rational argument is that everything - including God - exists.

Life exists - different levels of intelligent life exist - do you think it is rational to suppose that humans are the most advanced form of life in the universe?
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
Considering the size of the universe, the amount of time the universe has existed... the rational argument is that everything - including God - exists.

Life exists - different levels of intelligent life exist - do you think it is rational to suppose that humans are the most advanced form of life in the universe?
It's rational to believe humans are the only life in the universe until demonstrated otherwise.
 
Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?

It is unlikely, at least in my own mind, that a reality such as God would choose to intervene into the natural world without clear and specific purpose and the expectation of that purpose being accomplished.

If the purpose of the Incarnation was, as I strongly suspect, to in some profound way resolve the question of evil, that attempt self evidently failed. And as the 'theodicy' question and thus evil remains undented by any religious authority or idea, such divine purpose remains to be completed.

So we are left with only a few uncomfortable possibilities, all anti-thetical to existing religious ideas and tradition.

The first is the atheist option. There is no God. Not my choice but when two thousand years of tradition have failed to deliver on the Promise of the Incarnation, unable to demonstrate the reality of their claims, religion does have a credibility problem. And that brings us to the next option.

The second: The fact that religious tradition exists does not in itself mean God is active in our world. Religion could very well be false due to its all too human theological foundations and this potential is well supported in scripture by over three hundred of references to false teaching.

So the question is has 'religion' reasoning as understood by history and tradition taken us any closer to God or further from that potential? As the Doomsday clock was recently moved closer to midnight and our own self made hell, I must opt for the latter.

"The last option, and while I dislike quoting scripture, in this case I'll make an exception. from Hebews 4:7
The fact remains that someone must enter it, [the Kingdom of God] and since those who first hear the good news failed to enter through unbelief, God fixes another day."

As 'purpose' remains to be completed, that brings me to a theory of a second coming. Will such a presence come to confirm our existing ideas of God or deny them and the validity of tradition? That is to say, what there a difference between a true revelation from God and the theological interpretation of one? For there we have the basis for a judgement. Could be gnashing of teeth all around?
 
Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?

It is unlikely, at least in my own mind, that a reality such as God would choose to intervene into the natural world without clear and specific purpose and the expectation of that purpose being accomplished.

If the purpose of the Incarnation was, as I strongly suspect, to in some profound way resolve the question of evil, that attempt self evidently failed. And as the 'theodicy' question and thus evil remains undented by any religious authority or idea, such divine purpose remains to be completed.

So we are left with only a few uncomfortable possibilities, all anti-thetical to existing religious ideas and tradition.

The first is the atheist option. There is no God. Not my choice but when two thousand years of tradition have failed to deliver on the Promise of the Incarnation, unable to demonstrate the reality of their claims, religion does have a credibility problem. And that brings us to the next option.

The second: The fact that religious tradition exists does not in itself mean God is active in our world. Religion could very well be false due to its all too human theological foundations and this potential is well supported in scripture by over three hundred of references to false teaching.

So the question is has 'religious' reasoning as understood by history and tradition taken us any closer to God or further from that potential? As the Doomsday clock was recently moved closer to midnight and our own self made hell, I must opt for the latter.

"The last option, and while I dislike quoting scripture, in this case I'll make an exception. from Hebews 4:7
The fact remains that someone must enter it, [the Kingdom of God] and since those who first hear the good news failed to enter through unbelief, God fixes another day."

As 'purpose' remains to be completed, that brings me to a theory of a second coming. Will such a presence come to confirm our existing ideas of God or deny them and the validity of tradition? That is to say, what there a difference between a true revelation from God and the theological interpretation of one? For there we have the basis for a judgement.
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
It is unlikely, at least in my own mind, that a reality such as God would choose to intervene into the natural world without clear and specific purpose and the expectation of that purpose being accomplished.

If the purpose of the Incarnation was, as I strongly suspect, to in some profound way resolve the question of evil, that attempt self evidently failed. And as the 'theodicy' question and thus evil remains undented by any religious authority or idea, such divine purpose remains to be completed.

So we are left with only a few uncomfortable possibilities, all anti-thetical to existing religious ideas and tradition.

The first is the atheist option. There is no God. Not my choice but when two thousand years of tradition have failed to deliver on the Promise of the Incarnation, unable to demonstrate the reality of their claims, religion does have a credibility problem. And that brings us to the next option.

The second: The fact that religious tradition exists does not in itself mean God is active in our world. Religion could very well be false due to its all too human theological foundations and this potential is well supported in scripture by over three hundred of references to false teaching.

So the question is has 'religious' reasoning as understood by history and tradition taken us any closer to God or further from that potential? As the Doomsday clock was recently moved closer to midnight and our own self made hell, I must opt for the latter.

"The last option, and while I dislike quoting scripture, in this case I'll make an exception. from Hebews 4:7
The fact remains that someone must enter it, [the Kingdom of God] and since those who first hear the good news failed to enter through unbelief, God fixes another day."

As 'purpose' remains to be completed, that brings me to a theory of a second coming. Will such a presence come to confirm our existing ideas of God or deny them and the validity of tradition? That is to say, what there a difference between a true revelation from God and the theological interpretation of one? For there we have the basis for a judgement.
Just letting you know your thing a ma whosit duped. Also interesting post .
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

Because Love is a child on Earth. As well the angel of make believe wills fighting.
 
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