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The wisest man in the world is the one who realizes he knows nothing.

In the interest of prudence, is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be supported?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 54.2%
  • No

    Votes: 11 45.8%

  • Total voters
    24

Unification

Well-Known Member
This is a very famous idea attributed to Socrates by Plato. Today, with all of the animosity towards the scientific method (“science”) I see on RF, I think it is an important concept to discuss. People claim that scientific consensus is constantly changing or evolving, and, thus, provides no concrete answers. Religious beliefs, teachings, dogma and scripture, on the other hand, claim to provide ultimate and unchanging truths. But, isn’t that a bad thing? Socrates (or Plato) seems to have understood, thousands of years ago I might add, that those who claim to “know” absolute truths or adhere to scripture as being “absolute” or the “direct word of God” were ignorantly fooling themselves. In accepting scripture as fact, one forfeits their search for understanding. Is there any kind of honor or value in doing this? Is faith based on subjective, unverified experience more dangerous than its worth?

I’ve always said that I don’t want to settle on something that might be an illusion when the truth might be attainable in the future. I feel that is what the scientific method and science in general sticks to. Evolution, for example, is for all intents and purposes indisputable. The best opponents have to offer is pointing out holes in the theory that seem to get smaller and smaller by the day. And, they fail to present an alternative theory based on verifiable evidence rather than just jumping to the conclusion of God. I am in no way claiming that the scientific method is the only source of information/knowledge, but it does seem to be by far the most reliable and prudent.

In the interest of prudence, is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be sufficiently verified with independent evidence? What do we gain by jumping to conclusions about the nature of reality rather than allowing the evidence to direct us. Some say that science cannot explain how the universe came from nothing, but why is that a problem? Scientific understanding is still so young and underdeveloped, we still have so far to go with it. So, why can’t we just settle with the temporary answer of “we just don’t know yet”?

I think that an even wiser man would realize and understand it is nature revealing itself to mankind simultaneously with mankind discovering nature and it's mankind that develops, creates, and changes... not science and not religion.

Also, I think that an even wiser man would realize that a lot of knowledge of the past really doesn't matter. Mankind has an over compulsion for curiosity and knowledge of many things that are irrelevant, and that they'll never know when just being, living, experiencing, accepting that everyone else is different from one another yet a human being is the best test and evidence.

I'd say we gain freedom of mind, without being dictated and conformed to what everyone else wants us to think, know, have knowledge of and that we gain freedom to directly experience reality rather than having knowledge of what everyone else tells us reality is. We can experience a wide array of life as opposed to being confined to just science and/or just religion. Reality is everything, physically and the abstract.

I think that the human sells themselves short by placing science and/or religion on a pedestal when it's mankind collectively that does the experiencing of reality, the discovering, the creating, the changing. . both the physical and non-physical of nature.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
When people are born into fanaticism and fundamentalism, supporting evidence never comes into play.

It goes a long the lines of you cannot use reason and logic on people who did not use either to gain their current beliefs
assumption on your part.
that you do not participate in belief doesn't mean there is no gain by doing so
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Trillions of dollars are raised to fight cancer and still zero result. So, what did science actually achieve? Where are the priorities?
"zero" results?
Hard to take you seriously if you are honestly that ignorant.
Even harder to take you seriously if you are that dishonest.
 

aoji

Member
Socrates (or Plato) seems to have understood, thousands of years ago, I might add, that those who claim to “know” absolute truths or adhere to scripture as being “absolute” or the “direct word of God” were ignorantly fooling themselves.

Socrates definitely knew the absolute truth - that's why he was killed. Okay, question, what were the Greek scriptures?

I’ve always said that I don’t want to settle on something that might be an illusion when the truth might be attainable in the future.

Eastern religion(s) say that you've already settled (believing that you're a body, or a body only) and that you will never be able to realize Truth in the future - that since Truth is only realised in the Now, it can never be in the future, no matter when it happens because when it happens it will always be "now". It's like arguing whether Enlightment is slow or sudden - Zen says that it is always sudden.

... the scientific method is ... by far the most reliable and prudent.

Reliable? It can only reliable at the present moment - tomorrow it will change its findings thereby relegating today's belief as false. Yesterday we believed in black holes, now Stephen Hawking says there is no such thing as black holes. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=no+such+thing+as+black+holes&ia=videos

Here's the thing, any scientic belief you may have will not make you a better person. Yes, technology will affect your life, but not Scientific thought. You couls say the same thing about Religion, but religion has given humanity art, music, champagne, the written word, etc. Scriptures, or not, it has affected humanity for the better, religious caused deaths notwithstanding. The religious believer can state that religion has made him a better person, the scientific believer cannot.

... is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be sufficiently verified with independent evidence?

Wait long enough and you will realise that you just died. Do you really believe the world you see? Look at the world as Politics and you will realize the futility of it.

What do we gain by jumping to conclusions about the nature of reality rather than allowing the evidence to direct us.

It's by making judgements that we out grow our beliefs. You can't say that you have to jump in sooner or later - whether you know it or not we're already in the water.

Scientific understanding is still so young and underdeveloped, we still have so far to go with it. So, why can’t we just settle with the temporary answer of “we just don’t know yet”?

Since it is so young (started about 2000 years ago with the Greeks?, at least according to Western Civilization) then it will probably be another 2000 years before we'll be at a point where we can believe it to be true. You and I will surely be dead by then. Here's the thing - we will never know. You will never know.

You say that Science is young and underdeveloped, that we should settle for "we just don't know yet," but you also don't "want to settle on something that might be an illusion." Can you see the faulty logic?

Forget about trying to be logical - what do you do to make this world a better place? That in itself is an illusion, though, because no one can change the world, we can only change ourselves. Yes, the political mind wants to rule the world, to change the world - and there have been people who have shaped the world. But ultimately we die opened handed, just like Alexander the Great, where he had his hands outside his coffin.

Trust me, belief in black holes, dark matter, dark energy, the speed of light, evolution, et. al., will have absolutely no direct self generated effect on your, or my, life. Yes, the technology that comes out of Science will, but not the belief therewith. If you believe in evolution then why be a racist?, for example. The racist will believe that he is superior evolutionary wise, of course. That doesn't make him abetter person, it only makes him believe that his race is superior. Which begs the question that if Humanity started in Africa then we are all carry African genes. The racist will therefore have to find the "Black" gene to rationalise his belief, no? How will feeling superior make him a better person when he holds others in contempt? At the present time the white race may consider itself masters of the world but there are races much older - the Indus, the Egyptians, the Chinese, etc. "Our" known history only goes back some 10,000 years, the Indus go back some 75,000 years...

Here's the thing - if anyone states some Scientific belief of the past which has been proven wrong, the defenders of Science will attack it as non-nonsensical or will say that only certain societies believed it and that Science today doesn't believe such things while conveniently leaving out that what we believe today may be proven wrong "tomorrow".
 
Last edited:

outhouse

Atheistically
It can only reliable at the present moment - tomorrow it will change its findings thereby relegating today's belief as false

Factually false.

Many things science has discovered will factually never change.

WHY DO YOU FAULT science for improving???? that is severe fundamentalism and a hatred of knowledge.


Unlike religion often based on mythology, which the more we study the more mythology we find. And nothing about the mythology ever applies to nature in a credible way.

Stephen Hawking says there is no such thing as black holes

No he did not.

Your quote mining and taking him out of context


You say that Science is young and underdeveloped, that we should settle for "we just don't know yet," but you also don't "want to settle on something that might be an illusion." Can you see the faulty logic?

Only in what you propose

Trust me, belief in black holes, dark matter, dark energy, the speed of light, evolution, et. al., will have absolutely no direct self generated effect on your, or my, life.

Wow someone does not seem to understand grade school biology.

Why do you hate education and knowledge???


Your alive right now not because of some god, but because of some hard working scientist who uses evolution to stay one step ahead of a global pandemic.

If you believe in evolution then why be a racist?,

So to understand education and knowledge one is a racist by your terms?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Socrates advice can be heard without being absorbed. I heard it when I was young and thought it was a clever puzzle. Its not as if telling someone this advice will make them any wiser, and is it really possible for people to believe they are not wise? We all have to make decisions, and how can we do that without thinking ourselves wise? Doesn't the scientist have to trust their observations and calculations? Most people hate indecision, too. Indecision is considered to be foolishness, and decisiveness gets more credit than caution.
I think there is a difference between indecision and intellectual curiosity. The latter, IMO, can lead to the person striving to find more answers. It can lead to research, to studies and wisdom.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
One who is practiced in the art of experimentation understands that the answer to the question is only obtained after the experiment not before.
Any thought of knowing the outcome beforehand ruins the integrity of the experiment.
To learn, is to first understand that you don't know.
A child understands this instinctively.
That is true but one designed the study based on theory. Pavlov thought that dogs' behavior could be trained. So he began with that theory and then proved it. Just because on has a theory and is trying prove it doesn't mean that a double blind quantitative study cannot be undertaken. If the study fails for some reason, one takes the results and revises the stud.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
assumption on your part.
that you do not participate in belief doesn't mean there is no gain by doing so
Agreed Thief. There is solace in the end of life for many elders and in fact, religion is an integral part of many elders' lives. And that gives them a sense of community, friends, comfort, etc.
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
This is a very famous idea attributed to Socrates by Plato. Today, with all of the animosity towards the scientific method (“science”) I see on RF, I think it is an important concept to discuss. People claim that scientific consensus is constantly changing or evolving, and, thus, provides no concrete answers. Religious beliefs, teachings, dogma and scripture, on the other hand, claim to provide ultimate and unchanging truths. But, isn’t that a bad thing? Socrates (or Plato) seems to have understood, thousands of years ago I might add, that those who claim to “know” absolute truths or adhere to scripture as being “absolute” or the “direct word of God” were ignorantly fooling themselves. In accepting scripture as fact, one forfeits their search for understanding. Is there any kind of honor or value in doing this? Is faith based on subjective, unverified experience more dangerous than its worth?

I’ve always said that I don’t want to settle on something that might be an illusion when the truth might be attainable in the future. I feel that is what the scientific method and science in general sticks to. Evolution, for example, is for all intents and purposes indisputable. The best opponents have to offer is pointing out holes in the theory that seem to get smaller and smaller by the day. And, they fail to present an alternative theory based on verifiable evidence rather than just jumping to the conclusion of God. I am in no way claiming that the scientific method is the only source of information/knowledge, but it does seem to be by far the most reliable and prudent.

In the interest of prudence, is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be sufficiently verified with independent evidence? What do we gain by jumping to conclusions about the nature of reality rather than allowing the evidence to direct us. Some say that science cannot explain how the universe came from nothing, but why is that a problem? Scientific understanding is still so young and underdeveloped, we still have so far to go with it. So, why can’t we just settle with the temporary answer of “we just don’t know yet”?
Allow me to add to your subject simple words about God also
Yes, we do not know God well
That is why Christianity is an attempt to understand God through the Incarnation theory
It is a good attempt humanly
Because he told us who embodies the two words
God is love
When Christ said God so loved the world
Christian was here to supplement to Socrates and his attempt to understand the universeNow that the man of science, no matter how it will remain a kid in science
Here the following story
Ages in one there was a man looking for God
We quite like us
God came to him and said to him,
Do you want to know me than I am
OK
I want you to go to the seasideHe went researcher from God to the seasideAnd men do seek God and drill a small hole next to the seashore
After he completed drilling
God said to him,
Move seawater into that holeTo do this the man hard and transfer of sea water into the crater
After tiring of the man time
And he sent his words to God
I am tired and pit Amtlat
What do you want from these ordersHere God like that guy this sea water as it is
I asked you to navigate the sea into that hole
And here the man laughed at God and said to him, you're kidding me really
Sea large and small hole
The words to him Statistics
But is the sea
And your mind, O man, is that hole
I hope my friend that this story be complementary to your subject this
Yes, I believe that God is with us
But the most important qualities in a loving
The best definition of love is written in one of the messages or Peter Paul
Who knows love knows God
It does not have the love does not know GodThis is a humanitarian criterion to distinguish between the true teachings false and Education
Greetings and respect
They are God said to him,
Do you own a small bowl
The man said to him, Yes, this is the bowl with me
And also own the sea Tools
God said to him, Well
Dig a hole that you think it's enough
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
to leibowde84 said
Sorry rushed in writing and transmitter
But I wrote the story with a reply in the order of arrangement right
I apologize for this
Allow me to add to your subject simple words about God also
Yes, we do not know God well
That is why Christianity is an attempt to understand God through the Incarnation theory
It is a good attempt humanly
Because he told us who embodies the two words
God is love
When Christ said God so loved the world
Christian was here to supplement to Socrates and his attempt to understand the universeNow that the man of science, no matter how it will remain a kid in science
Here the following story
Ages in one there was a man looking for God
We quite like us
God came to him and said to him,
Do you want to know me than I am
OK
They are God said to him,
Do you own a small bowl
The man said to him, Yes, this is the bowl with me
And also own the sea Tools
God said to him, Well
Dig a hole that you think it's enough
I want you to go to the seasideHe went researcher from God to the seasideAnd men do seek God and drill a small hole next to the seashore
After he completed drilling
God said to him,
Move seawater into that holeTo do this the man hard and transfer of sea water into the crater
After tiring of the man time
And he sent his words to God
I am tired and pit Amtlat
What do you want from these ordersHere God like that guy this sea water as it is
I asked you to navigate the sea into that hole
And here the man laughed at God and said to him, you're kidding me really
Sea large and small hole
The words to him Statistics
But is the sea
And your mind, O man, is that hole
I hope my friend that this story be complementary to your subject this
Yes, I believe that God is with us
But the most important qualities in a loving
The best definition of love is written in one of the messages or Peter Paul
Who knows love knows God
It does not have the love does not know GodThis is a humanitarian criterion to distinguish between the true teachings false and Education
Greetings and respect
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
This is a very famous idea attributed to Socrates by Plato. Today, with all of the animosity towards the scientific method (“science”) I see on RF, I think it is an important concept to discuss. People claim that scientific consensus is constantly changing or evolving, and, thus, provides no concrete answers. Religious beliefs, teachings, dogma and scripture, on the other hand, claim to provide ultimate and unchanging truths. But, isn’t that a bad thing? Socrates (or Plato) seems to have understood, thousands of years ago I might add, that those who claim to “know” absolute truths or adhere to scripture as being “absolute” or the “direct word of God” were ignorantly fooling themselves. In accepting scripture as fact, one forfeits their search for understanding. Is there any kind of honor or value in doing this? Is faith based on subjective, unverified experience more dangerous than its worth?

I’ve always said that I don’t want to settle on something that might be an illusion when the truth might be attainable in the future. I feel that is what the scientific method and science in general sticks to. Evolution, for example, is for all intents and purposes indisputable. The best opponents have to offer is pointing out holes in the theory that seem to get smaller and smaller by the day. And, they fail to present an alternative theory based on verifiable evidence rather than just jumping to the conclusion of God. I am in no way claiming that the scientific method is the only source of information/knowledge, but it does seem to be by far the most reliable and prudent.

In the interest of prudence, is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be sufficiently verified with independent evidence? What do we gain by jumping to conclusions about the nature of reality rather than allowing the evidence to direct us. Some say that science cannot explain how the universe came from nothing, but why is that a problem? Scientific understanding is still so young and underdeveloped, we still have so far to go with it. So, why can’t we just settle with the temporary answer of “we just don’t know yet”?

There is a conundrum in belief vs knowledge in that to make progress in knowledge you sometimes have to make an assumption first.
For example, when you get up in the morning, you might as well believe that you will live through the day even though there is no way to know for certain that you will.
Every scientific experiment starts with a hypothesis. Should you try things in life and not be sincere?
You cannot know, but to act as if you don't believe is just another way of believing.
The question isn't whether or not you believe. The question is: what do you believe?

"Supporting Evidence" is a fancy phrase but it can mean so many things.
I believe it because I saw it.
I believe it because my neighbor said so.
I believe it because I had a dream last night.
None of these things is as certain as we may think them to be.

If you wish to do nothing or perhaps to pass from this world into nirvana, then perhaps you can dispense with the believing of things. I don't know.
But if you want to get up and walk out your door and do something, then maybe you need to start by believing you can. Is that better? Who knows? Do you believe it's better? How can we make the world a better place if we don't even believe we can?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Evolution, for example, is for all intents and purposes indisputable.
.....
In the interest of prudence, is it better to withhold belief in anything until it can be sufficiently verified with independent evidence...

The ignorance of this comment is astounding. I would urge you to do some research into the improvements science has made in fighting cancer.

How contradictory.
 
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