The Witcher - evolution in portrayal of women (not revolution)

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not sure how many/any here are going to know enough about this to offer an opinion, but this seems the right place for a discussion, so I guess we'll see.

There are 3 Witcher games, and in my opinion they are an interesting study in terms of how their portrayal of women has changed. I'm not that interested (in this thread) in exploring gaming or the gaming industry generally, as this is it's own beast. Well worth exploring, but maybe not here unless there is a direct relationship.

Background of how women are portrayed in the 3 games;

The Witcher (2008)

It's an intelligent game. There is subtlety there, and moral greyness in so far as nothing is ever truly good or bad in the game. Actions have consequences. But then there is the fact that you collect a trading card for every woman you sleep with. Yep...you heard me...I've included one of the less risque ones here.

Spoiler

Here is an article which I think is reasonable in it's assessment
Subtle sexism: analyzing The Witcher

The Witcher 2 (2012)

Big step forwards in terms of subtlety. No trading cards! Issues of race are explored quite consistently, and quite sympathetically through, with the use of non-humans (elves, dwarves, even some more exotic monster races) basically becoming the persecuted sub-classes of a ruling human society.

Again, an article which I see as fair;

Gamasutra: Cody Steffen's Blog - Sorceresses Gone Wild: The Insidious Sexism of The Witcher 2

The Witcher 3 (2015)

I've just finished this, and it was frigging great. It still has it's issues in terms of sexism, but it appears very strongly to me that the story has evolved over the years, and is now starting to treat feminist issues in an intelligent manner. Of course, it is NEVER going to be a vehicle for feminism in any true sense, but I find some of the negative commentary about it quite ignorant.

Again, a brief article relevant to this;
Feminist Critics Attack ‘The Witcher 3’ over Depiction of Women in Fantasy Video Game - Breitbart

But here are some specific improvements the game has made, without comprimising the story arc, and indeed, adding to it.

Take some care with this if you're planning on playing, since it may hint at some of the storylines;

Spoiler

1) Of the most powerful characters in the game, many are women. These women are generally quite independent of the main (male) character, and have their own personalities. They are very much 3 dimensional characters. They're all attractive, but dress reasonably for their roles (earlier games included skimpy costumes in some cases) and some even have large visible facial scars (the more martial of the women)

2) One of the missions involves intervening in a royal lineage dispute. Overturning local tradition to install the daughter as a queen in a land where kings are always preferred is not only an option, but appears to give the 'best' outcome, although it's always hard to know when 'best' is in the Witcher.

3) In trying to find an imprisoned friend, a female sorceress comes up with the idea of the Witcher arresting her, and taking her to the gaol, so they can both penetrate it's defences. They stage her arrest, and she warns the Witcher that they might not treat her nice, but he needs to find out the information they are after and not worry about it.
There is some initial talking, and the guards slap her a couple of times. I lost it at that point, and ended up fighting the whole garrison (lol) but it's possible to let it happen. She is eventually taken into another room, while you talk to the prison commander. Her fingernails are removed with pliers, which you hear (it's a brutal world, consistently) but if you continue your conversation you get the info you need without any risk to yourself. By the time you are finally ready to free her, she frees herself, kills her captors, and then kills the prison commander who you had been talking to. No need for a male hero to rescue her, but also a good handling of anger and revenge from a normally 'good' character who had willingly placed herself in a vulnerable situation.

4) At the end of the game, as you're about to enter the final fight, you're adopted daughter (kinda) puts her hand on your arm, and says 'This isn't your tale. It was never yours. It's mine. I need to end this'
She goes off the final battle alone, and you basically have to wait to see what happens.

Meh, hard to have this conversation if you haven't played any of the games, and I get that the linked articles would take some investment, but I think the Witcher has evolved very positively in it's handling of women, from an admittedly low base, and have faith this will continue. In fact, I would think the chances are reasonable that the next Witcher game has a female protagonist

Spoiler

(in at least one possible ending, the adopted daughter becomes a Witcher herself, after having saved the world).

Is evolution enough, or should we only accept 'perfection'?
What role does feminism play in a historical setting which was clearly not equal?
How important is it for someone criticizing something to have more than a passing understanding of it?

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm not sure how evolution can be called "enough", as "enough" implies being done and doing nothing more. Personally, having played the beginning parts of the first two Witchers (neither could hold my interest for long, though the second held out longer), I did notice a marked improvement, which I'm happy for. One thing that I think more internet critics (at least the more serious-leaning type) should be doing is pointing out areas where things are being done right, in addition to areas that still need improving.

In terms of historical settings, it's always important to remember that fantasy settings are NEVER historical settings. At best, they're loosely based on a particular interpretation of history, that're honestly not any less fantastical than the various anachronisms of King Arthur over the years. As a result, it's up to the author to judge whether to portray a non-equal society, or an egalitarian one that might still have more iron-age levels of technological sophistication, but to still recognize that neither is a portrayal of history.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not sure how evolution can be called "enough", as "enough" implies being done and doing nothing more. Personally, having played the beginning parts of the first two Witchers (neither could hold my interest for long, though the second held out longer), I did notice a marked improvement, which I'm happy for. One thing that I think more internet critics (at least the more serious-leaning type) should be doing is pointing out areas where things are being done right, in addition to areas that still need improving.

In terms of historical settings, it's always important to remember that fantasy settings are NEVER historical settings. At best, they're loosely based on a particular interpretation of history, that're honestly not any less fantastical than the various anachronisms of King Arthur over the years. As a result, it's up to the author to judge whether to portray a non-equal society, or an egalitarian one that might still have more iron-age levels of technological sophistication, but to still recognize that neither is a portrayal of history.

Hey, thanks for the input.

What I mean by evolution is more that the improvement is an ongoing one, and I would envisage that continuing to move forwards, but it's not there yet. A revolution (in my terms) would have been required to make Witcher suddenly a good model in terms of feminism. But the level of improvement is marked between 2 and 3 (even more so than between 1 and 2 in my opinion) and there are some aspects of the game which are not only no longer problems (ie. neutral to my mind), but are actually positive in terms of their portrayal and treatment of women.

You're comment re: internet critics is a very worthy one. The articles I linked to (for Witcher 1 and 2) seemed balanced to my mind. They called the game out on the crap, but weren't a 'baby with the bathwater' broad brush. The one for Witcher 3 is a little different, in that it's more divisive. The comments the article was responding to showed a remarkable lack of any understanding or feeling for the game. I suspect a view that the context was unimportant was involved.

Historical settings really interests me, since I dabble in writing fantasy, and my aim is generally to make my world both consistent and believable. So historical content commonly becomes a means by which a fantasy world can be made alive. In the Witcher, monsters are often based on mythological monsters, for example, and the technology levels are consistent with periods in our history. The majority of the European world (which is the closest parallel) was sexist, so I can see some inherent sexism being prevalent merely in terms of realism. That was why I had so much issue with the trading cards. They added nothing to the world or the narrative, they were 100% gratuitous.

Regardless, Witcher is based on novels, not written for gaming. It is part of the reason why the setting has such depth, I think. But the books were written in Poland, with the first Witcher story being published in 1986. The game world was defined long before the Witcher video game, and the evolution of women's portrayal in the game has been done with an eye to not breaking the consistency of the setting.

Dunno...I can't hold it up as a feminist role model in gaming by any means, but if taken in context, the game developers seem to have matured remarkably over time. But they appear extremely unlikely to get much credit for that from feminist circles, and I'm trying to work out if I see that as fair or not. I think not, but it's not clear cut to me.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hey, thanks for the input.

What I mean by evolution is more that the improvement is an ongoing one, and I would envisage that continuing to move forwards, but it's not there yet. A revolution (in my terms) would have been required to make Witcher suddenly a good model in terms of feminism. But the level of improvement is marked between 2 and 3 (even more so than between 1 and 2 in my opinion) and there are some aspects of the game which are not only no longer problems (ie. neutral to my mind), but are actually positive in terms of their portrayal and treatment of women.

I've unfortunately not had a chance to try out Witcher 3, because money.

You're comment re: internet critics is a very worthy one. The articles I linked to (for Witcher 1 and 2) seemed balanced to my mind. They called the game out on the crap, but weren't a 'baby with the bathwater' broad brush. The one for Witcher 3 is a little different, in that it's more divisive. The comments the article was responding to showed a remarkable lack of any understanding or feeling for the game. I suspect a view that the context was unimportant was involved.

I'll probably take a look at them once I become more familiar with the games.

Historical settings really interests me, since I dabble in writing fantasy, and my aim is generally to make my world both consistent and believable. So historical content commonly becomes a means by which a fantasy world can be made alive. In the Witcher, monsters are often based on mythological monsters, for example, and the technology levels are consistent with periods in our history. The majority of the European world (which is the closest parallel) was sexist, so I can see some inherent sexism being prevalent merely in terms of realism. That was why I had so much issue with the trading cards. They added nothing to the world or the narrative, they were 100% gratuitous.

While true, it's important to remember that the sexism seen in European history is, itself, a biased view. I understand that it mostly existed in nobility and in the Church for most of the post-Roman times, and then after that more widespread during the socio-political upheaval that was the Protestant Reformation. Peasants, on the other hand, would have likely been more egalitarian (though also likely with massive variations from village to village) by virtue of pre-industrial farming being an "all-hands-on-deck" affair. Certainly pre-Roman Northern Europe was significantly better for women than the Greco-Roman world at that time, as women were capable of rising to positions of power. It certainly would not have been fully egalitarian by any stretch, but I suspect that, depending on where and when one is, it might have been better than we give it credit (especially given that Europe is not, and has never been, a single cultural entity, anyway). I might go so far to say that on average, the sexism of pre-Reformation Europe was probably close to ... recently-modern America's.

When it comes to writing fiction, believability comes more from consistency, not necessarily with historical accuracy. I'll be writing fantasy stories myself, depicting several different iron-age tribes loosely based on what very little I know about indigenous Europeans, all of which will have varying levels of egalitarianism (or lack thereof).

Regardless, Witcher is based on novels, not written for gaming. It is part of the reason why the setting has such depth, I think. But the books were written in Poland, with the first Witcher story being published in 1986. The game world was defined long before the Witcher video game, and the evolution of women's portrayal in the game has been done with an eye to not breaking the consistency of the setting.

Dunno...I can't hold it up as a feminist role model in gaming by any means, but if taken in context, the game developers seem to have matured remarkably over time. But they appear extremely unlikely to get much credit for that from feminist circles, and I'm trying to work out if I see that as fair or not. I think not, but it's not clear cut to me.

I think it really depends on a given individuals' standards. as well as those of a given culture. Feminism is a complex movement, with probably as many variations as there are feminists. Feminism as a critical lens is just one such lens by which a work can be analyzed, and failing in that sense is a rather subjective matter. I'm a huge fan of Sailor Moon, which absolutely fails modern US's feminist standards (yet ironically succeeds in LGBT+ terms), but probably passes the standards of Japanese feminism. A lot of feminists were going nuts over Mad Max: Fury Road, but my mom (who was born in 1950 and has feminist leanings) hated the film, and I felt it succeeded wonderfully in some ways but utterly failed in others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would say gaming as a whole hasn't really caught on with feminism, or female gamers for that matter. It's made some improvements, and there are the classic characters like Samus who has been kicking alien butt and Princess Zelda who has been helping to save Hyrule, both for nearly 30 years, and there are some others like Jill Valentine and Claire Redfield, but gaming is still largely made to appeal to a male audience. In many ways, it parallels the movies where women tend to not be portrayed realistically, in numbers or mannerisms.
But, then again, we still really haven't moved beyond the "knight in shining armor/damsel in distress" mentality. There are some wonderful examples that point to the contrary, but a mountain-pile of examples that still hold to the idea of putting women in a lesser position.

 

[Treks]

They may have attracted players with a.. um... lower appreciation for womenkind than yourself, Lewis. Those players who have remained loyal to the brand may find this evolution seeping into their subconscious and positively affecting their view of women, now? I dunno.

Great post though, I read the whole thing. Fascinating

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But, then again, we still really haven't moved beyond the "knight in shining armor/damsel in distress" mentality. There are some wonderful examples that point to the contrary, but a mountain-pile of examples that still hold to the idea of putting women in a lesser position.

Agree with this. But without giving too much away, I think it's something the Witcher 3 is very good at handling. It's far more than mere lip service, despite the main protagonist being male. And it's something that wasn't done so well earlier in the series, where the women were strong-willed but still found themselves in situations where only the hero could save them a little too often to be credibly independent.

Sorry, there are some really specific examples I alluded to in the spoiler tags of the OP (number 4 in particular) but I don't want to discuss too much, since it might ruin it for some.

 

[Bunyip]

I would say gaming as a whole hasn't really caught on with feminism, or female gamers for that matter. It's made some improvements, and there are the classic characters like Samus who has been kicking alien butt and Princess Zelda who has been helping to save Hyrule, both for nearly 30 years, and there are some others like Jill Valentine and Claire Redfield, but gaming is still largely made to appeal to a male audience. In many ways, it parallels the movies where women tend to not be portrayed realistically, in numbers or mannerisms.
But, then again, we still really haven't moved beyond the "knight in shining armor/damsel in distress" mentality. There are some wonderful examples that point to the contrary, but a mountain-pile of examples that still hold to the idea of putting women in a lesser position.

Thankfully that is beginning to change, the Tomb raider reboot, Borderlands and even COD are introducing much more interesting female leads. But yes, there is a long way to go. Fem Shep in Mass Effect was strangely a far more interesting character than Male Sheperd.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

They may have attracted players with a.. um... lower appreciation for womenkind than yourself, Lewis. Those players who have remained loyal to the brand may find this evolution seeping into their subconscious and positively affecting their view of women, now? I dunno.

Great post though, I read the whole thing. Fascinating

Hopefully, Treks, but I wouldn't count on it. At least, though, it might not be reinforcing negative stereotypes?
Speaking selfishly, though, the world just feels more alive because of the stronger independent characters, and Witcher has always featured a lot of key female characters, so it directly speaks to how they are being handled.

I wonder if it is an example of the writers doing a pretty good job of listening to feedback, and making some sensible (not wholesale) changes, in which case I'd happily tip my hat to them, but I'm not sure.

Incidentally, here is a fairly sensible and balanced (in my opinion) take on the Witcher 3 and feminism.

The Complicated Women Of The Witcher 3

Some of the stuff I have seen written by...I dunno...professional feminists, I guess...is lacking in credibility. Specifically, they make fundamentally wrong assumptions which prove a lack of research too often. Seems like colour by numbers feminism, instead of actually dealing with reality, which was one of the things that led to me creating this thread.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm not sure how many/any here are going to know enough about this to offer an opinion, but this seems the right place for a discussion, so I guess we'll see.

There are 3 Witcher games, and in my opinion they are an interesting study in terms of how their portrayal of women has changed. I'm not that interested (in this thread) in exploring gaming or the gaming industry generally, as this is it's own beast. Well worth exploring, but maybe not here unless there is a direct relationship.

Background of how women are portrayed in the 3 games;

The Witcher (2008)

It's an intelligent game. There is subtlety there, and moral greyness in so far as nothing is ever truly good or bad in the game. Actions have consequences. But then there is the fact that you collect a trading card for every woman you sleep with. Yep...you heard me...I've included one of the less risque ones here.

Spoiler

Here is an article which I think is reasonable in it's assessment
Subtle sexism: analyzing The Witcher

The Witcher 2 (2012)

Big step forwards in terms of subtlety. No trading cards! Issues of race are explored quite consistently, and quite sympathetically through, with the use of non-humans (elves, dwarves, even some more exotic monster races) basically becoming the persecuted sub-classes of a ruling human society.

Again, an article which I see as fair;

Gamasutra: Cody Steffen's Blog - Sorceresses Gone Wild: The Insidious Sexism of The Witcher 2

The Witcher 3 (2015)

I've just finished this, and it was frigging great. It still has it's issues in terms of sexism, but it appears very strongly to me that the story has evolved over the years, and is now starting to treat feminist issues in an intelligent manner. Of course, it is NEVER going to be a vehicle for feminism in any true sense, but I find some of the negative commentary about it quite ignorant.

Again, a brief article relevant to this;
Feminist Critics Attack ‘The Witcher 3’ over Depiction of Women in Fantasy Video Game - Breitbart

But here are some specific improvements the game has made, without comprimising the story arc, and indeed, adding to it.

Take some care with this if you're planning on playing, since it may hint at some of the storylines;

Spoiler

1) Of the most powerful characters in the game, many are women. These women are generally quite independent of the main (male) character, and have their own personalities. They are very much 3 dimensional characters. They're all attractive, but dress reasonably for their roles (earlier games included skimpy costumes in some cases) and some even have large visible facial scars (the more martial of the women)

2) One of the missions involves intervening in a royal lineage dispute. Overturning local tradition to install the daughter as a queen in a land where kings are always preferred is not only an option, but appears to give the 'best' outcome, although it's always hard to know when 'best' is in the Witcher.

3) In trying to find an imprisoned friend, a female sorceress comes up with the idea of the Witcher arresting her, and taking her to the gaol, so they can both penetrate it's defences. They stage her arrest, and she warns the Witcher that they might not treat her nice, but he needs to find out the information they are after and not worry about it.
There is some initial talking, and the guards slap her a couple of times. I lost it at that point, and ended up fighting the whole garrison (lol) but it's possible to let it happen. She is eventually taken into another room, while you talk to the prison commander. Her fingernails are removed with pliers, which you hear (it's a brutal world, consistently) but if you continue your conversation you get the info you need without any risk to yourself. By the time you are finally ready to free her, she frees herself, kills her captors, and then kills the prison commander who you had been talking to. No need for a male hero to rescue her, but also a good handling of anger and revenge from a normally 'good' character who had willingly placed herself in a vulnerable situation.

4) At the end of the game, as you're about to enter the final fight, you're adopted daughter (kinda) puts her hand on your arm, and says 'This isn't your tale. It was never yours. It's mine. I need to end this'
She goes off the final battle alone, and you basically have to wait to see what happens.

Meh, hard to have this conversation if you haven't played any of the games, and I get that the linked articles would take some investment, but I think the Witcher has evolved very positively in it's handling of women, from an admittedly low base, and have faith this will continue. In fact, I would think the chances are reasonable that the next Witcher game has a female protagonist

Spoiler

(in at least one possible ending, the adopted daughter becomes a Witcher herself, after having saved the world).

Is evolution enough, or should we only accept 'perfection'?
What role does feminism play in a historical setting which was clearly not equal?
How important is it for someone criticizing something to have more than a passing understanding of it?

I think Witcher 3 isn't just evolving, but seems to be rather impressive in scope. I mean it seems to be far larger than the GTA open worlds all with a smaller team and less money. (Speaking of money, I haven't had a chance to play the third one because I needz moneyz!!)

We shouldn't accept "perfection" because perfection is impossible. Evolution, as long as it keeps evolving, is good enough for me, a female gamer.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think Witcher 3 isn't just evolving, but seems to be rather impressive in scope. I mean it seems to be far larger than the GTA open worlds all with a smaller team and less money. (Speaking of money, I haven't had a chance to play the third one because I needz moneyz!!)

We shouldn't accept "perfection" because perfection is impossible. Evolution, as long as it keeps evolving, is good enough for me, a female gamer.

Hmmm...want me to mail it to ya and you can mail it back when youre done?

Im in melbourne.

 

[SomeRandom]

Hmmm...want me to mail it to ya and you can mail it back when youre done?

Im in melbourne.

As tempting as that sounds, I should probably hold off for a while. Besides I don't own the latest console yet and my PC (which is a laptop) is not always game friendly for me. The plight of a broke uni student.

 

[Marisa]

I'm not in to gaming at all so I'm ignorant of it in relation to feminism. I can't imagine I have much to say on the subject save that I disapprove of anything that portrays women as objects against which it's perfectly acceptable to sate one's desires or as in need of protecting by nature, and that I approve of efforts to portray women as capable and independent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not in to gaming at all so I'm ignorant of it in relation to feminism. I can't imagine I have much to say on the subject save that I disapprove of anything that portrays women as objects against which it's perfectly acceptable to sate one's desires or as in need of protecting by nature, and that I approve of efforts to portray women as capable and independent.

What's worse than the games is the gaming community at-large itself. Even before switching my game profiles to female I had a tendency to have everyone on mute. World of Warcraft can be pretty bad at times, Call of Duty is the absolute worst, and it isn't uncommon for some dood to get really upset when he looses to a girl. But it's not all bad, and if studies were done what would probably be found is that the trash heap of players are a minority, albeit a very loud and extremely obnoxious one.
It was several years ago when I read this, but even a gaming magazine claimed that if a girl is at a gaming convo, she isn't there for herself but rather because her boyfriend drug her there. Interestingly though, later on, this same magazine covered an incident in World of Warcraft that involved the game mods banning a MtF transsexual player because some ********* filed a complaint when she was recruiting for her GLBT-friendly guild, and they reported it months after it happened (I use to post on a forum where this particular player also posted).
But, as I mentioned, gaming in many ways is very similar to movies. There are some wonderful examples of women characters who are strong and capable without being sexed up and hyper-focused on guys with buff muscles, but often times women are sexed up and available for the muscled hyper-masculine hero.

 

[Marisa]

What's worse than the games is the gaming community at-large itself. Even before switching my game profiles to female I had a tendency to have everyone on mute. World of Warcraft can be pretty bad at times, Call of Duty is the absolute worst, and it isn't uncommon for some dood to get really upset when he looses to a girl. But it's not all bad, and if studies were done what would probably be found is that the trash heap of players are a minority, albeit a very loud and extremely obnoxious one.
It was several years ago when I read this, but even a gaming magazine claimed that if a girl is at a gaming convo, she isn't there for herself but rather because her boyfriend drug her there. Interestingly though, later on, this same magazine covered an incident in World of Warcraft that involved the game mods banning a MtF transsexual player because some ********* filed a complaint when she was recruiting for her GLBT-friendly guild, and they reported it months after it happened (I use to post on a forum where this particular player also posted).
But, as I mentioned, gaming in many ways is very similar to movies. There are some wonderful examples of women characters who are strong and capable without being sexed up and hyper-focused on guys with buff muscles, but often times women are sexed up and available for the muscled hyper-masculine hero.

That's the way of the world I suppose. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[dust1n]

I always assumed Sorceresses and Witchers and do it all the time and undergo infidelities, but then not remember them because of "amnesia", dressed so scantily because they are sterile and could fix syphilis with White Honey and a Monster Claw.