The Wonderful Christian Message of Wonderfully Christian South Dakota

[kevmicsmi]

Uh....you mean don't have sex in south dakota unless you are trying to procreate?

Do you have anything to add to the debate besides this?

Read the thread.....Ive added plenty, and there have been plenty of logical arguments people have thrown at me, If I am debating, I dont really care for emotional arguments which what you present me with.

 

[kevmicsmi]

Uh....you mean don't have sex in south dakota unless you are trying to procreate?

Do you have anything to add to the debate besides this?

My wife and I werent trying to procreate when she recently became pregnant, but that doesnt mean we are going to abort our child just because of this

 

[dawny0826]

Any number of pre-existing conditions could endanger the mothers life OR her health. Pregnancy itself has risks. A woman needs to be able to make healthcare choices for her own body. End of story. We allow killing for self defense, we allow it as punishment. This anti-choice mentality is purely religious and your religion has not place in my womb. You surely wouldnt want an Iraqi womans religion on your body!

You obviously didn't read my response to your last post...so here we go again...

Yeah...that's exactly what I posted to you. EVERY SINGLE pregnancy carries risks to both mother and child. Every single one.

And my entire point is...if a woman is not willing to take risks...whether those risks be health related, financially related or emotionally related...she doesn't have to get pregnant! Don't want a baby...double up on your protection if you have to.

Don't play ignorant to the fact that sex can result in pregnancy. It's too easy to blame others for an individuals poor choices.

And quite frankly, I tire of people assuming that my stance on abortion revolves entirely around my religious views. I've held this stance for quite a while...before I became a Christian.

I believe in responsiblity and exercising good judgment and common sense doesn't hurt either.

I've had enough babies to know. What is your point? A fetus is possibly viable outside the womb at 26 weeks. So that means in week 5 or week 12 I can't choose otherwise? I'm not following the logic here.

Good for you.

I have two children.

Actually, a fetus can possibly live outside of womb prior to 26 weeks.

As of now, I believe you have the right to abort your child at 5 or twelve weeks. I consider this murder and am entitled to that belief. It's my right to support politicans who feel the same.

Could you please source your statistics about the marital status and BC methods of women choosing abortions. Until then I can't grant your data any credence. On top of that, SO WHAT? Consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy. A woman makes a mistake, skips a pill. Now she's faced with a very difficult choice. Or she should be.

I've already included this information quite a few times in my previous posts...

Or she should be what?

A woman makes a mistake...it's her mistake...I can't justify that her mistake warrants the death of an innocent. She crewed up...she placed herself in that position.

What percentage? Source please. ALso keep in mind that only 39% (best case) of rapes are reported. I cant find anything on incest but here's my source http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm

The morning after pill is 75% effective if taken within the first 72 hours after sex.

Statistically they are THE BEST, maybe even ONLY way to reduce abortion. Making abortion legal does NOT increase the occurrence of abortion. I know you may object to the use of a PP link as biased however their info is verifiable from outside sources.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/international/globalresource/resource-050830-illegal-abortion.xmlAs

Sorry...but planned parenthood is the last site I will refer to.

NEWSFLASH - thats exactly why every woman should be able to make the decision to carry a pregnancy to term based on her life, her family, their individual circumstances and needs and wether or not she wants to take on those risks vs. the risks of an abortion

What about making good decisions prior to conception?

I completely agree. Making an informed decision about what to do when you find yourself unintendedly pregnant isn't exactly irresponsible.

I wouldn't necessarily deem it responsible either.

http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/eceffect.html

http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ectime.html

The only 100% proven method of preventing pregnancy is complete abstinence. So unless you are advising people to ONLY have sex in the interest of pro-creation your comments here are useless.

It really doesn't take much to prevent pregnancy. Truly. It's not rocket science.

I fail to see how chooseing to terminate a pregnancy that will wreak havoc on a life, possibly several lives is irresponsible. I fail to see how bringing an unwanted child into the world to a woman who can't afford it or properly take care of it is responsible.

What of adoption?

Are you suggesting that women who have abortions blame others and the government for their predicament?

Many do.

 

[Sunstone]

Ugly as I think many (perhaps most) abortions are, I strongly prefer that the choice of whether to have an abortion be left up to the woman. I would rather trust women to make the right choices in this matter than trust the alleged wisdom of governments to make the right choices.

 

[kevmicsmi]

Ugly as I think many (perhaps most) abortions are, I strongly prefer that the choice of whether to have an abortion be left up to the woman. I would rather trust women to make the right choices in this matter than trust the alleged wisdom of governments to make the right choices.

I disagree in this instance

 

[PureX]

I can't agree with you.

Of course you could agree. *smile* You just choose not to. And unfortunately, you don't explain why you choose not to, so there isn't much I can say in response.

 

[PureX]

What are you talking about? The bill of rights is part of the constitution, and the declaration of independence has nothing to do with law

These documents are not "laws". They are a set of ideals and principals upon which the nation was founded. The purpose of our laws is to institute, maintain, and protect these founding ideals and principals. Therefor, the purpose of the judicial branch is to interpret these documents to discern these ideals and principals, so as to implement, maintain, and protect them through social intercourse.

The basic ideals upon which this nation was founded are articulated by a number of our founders in a number of written documents, and they do include the Declaration of Independence, as it's in this declaration to the world that the founders explain WHY they are separating from England and forming a new and autonomous nation. None of these documents are laws in themselves. They are the documented intentions of the people who established this nation.

 

[PureX]

Ugly as I think many (perhaps most) abortions are, I strongly prefer that the choice of whether to have an abortion be left up to the woman. I would rather trust women to make the right choices in this matter than trust the alleged wisdom of governments to make the right choices.

It's not just about making the "right" choices, it's about allowing other human beings the right to make "wrong" choices because that's THEIR choice.

Why do so many Americans think they have some automatic right to make other people do what they believe is the right thing to do? Why do we assume that our idea of what's right is always right, and that no one else should ever be allowed to be "wrong"? Being free means having the right to be wrong. Why can't we understand this? Why are we so frightened of being wrong that we're willing to forfeit our freedom just to create the illusion for ourselves that we're doing what's "right"?

 

[dawny0826]

Of course you could agree. *smile* You just choose not to. And unfortunately, you don't explain why you choose not to, so there isn't much I can say in response.

I'm pro-life.

And even as a woman...I don't think that anyone, regardless of personal circumstance has the right to murder an unborn baby.

I believe that pro-life politicians should speak up for the rights of the unborn...even if it results in infringement on the rights of the mother.

Murder is crimninal.

I might feel differently if statistics show that the majority of abortions occur due to rape or incest but that's NOT the case.

The majority of abortions are performed in this country on UNWED mothers...who are NOT ready to have children and go on to have MORE THAN ONE abortion.

I'm sorry...but I don't feel that an innocent should die for the negligent acts of a woman who as an afterthought...after conception has occured decides that pregnancy isn't feasible for her.

I can not see myself EVER casting my vote on a politician who is pro-choice.

And I'm not going to sell out to appease those who feel otherwise.

 

[dawny0826]

It's not just about making the "right" choices, it's about allowing other human beings the right to make "wrong" choices because that's THEIR choice.

So, you're saying that the acts of criminals are justified because they have the RIGHT to make WRONGFUL choices?

 

[michel]

I'm pro-life.

And even as a woman...I don't think that anyone, regardless of personal circumstance has the right to murder an unborn baby.

I believe that pro-life politicians should speak up for the rights of the unborn...even if it results in infringement on the rights of the mother.

Murder is crimninal.

I might feel differently if statistics show that the majority of abortions occur due to rape or incest but that's NOT the case.

The majority of abortions are performed in this country on UNWED mothers...who are NOT ready to have children and go on to have MORE THAN ONE abortion.

I'm sorry...but I don't feel that an innocent should die for the negligent acts of a woman who as an afterthought...after conception has occured decides that pregnancy isn't feasible for her.

I can not see myself EVER casting my vote on a politician who is pro-choice.

And I'm not going to sell out to appease those who feel otherwise.

Lovely post; I do so agree with you.

 

[PureX]

I'm pro-life.

And even as a woman...I don't think that anyone, regardless of personal circumstance has the right to murder an unborn baby.

I believe that pro-life politicians should speak up for the rights of the unborn...even if it results in infringement on the rights of the mother.

Murder is crimninal.

But not everyone agrees that the abortion of a developing fetus is "murder". Why do you automatically assume that YOUR concept of what is "murder" should trump eveyone else's, and that therefor everyone else should be forced to comply with your idea of what's "murder"? Are you really incapable of grasping the idea that you might be wrong about this? I know that you THINK you're right, but do you automatically assume that everything you think is true must be true just because you think it is? And if you can see that you could be wrong, how do you justify forcing your opinion about this on everyone else? Don't you care about their right to form their own opinion and to live by them, at all?

 

[dawny0826]

But not everyone agrees that the abortion of a developing fetus is "murder". Why do you automatically assume that YOUR concept of what is "murder" should trump eveyone else's, and that therefor everyone else should be forced to comply with your idea of what's "murder"?

This goes both ways.

Why do you automatically assume that YOUR concept of murder should trump mine?

I Are you really incapable of grasping the idea that you might be wrong about this?

Are you capable of grasping the idea that YOU may be wrong?

I know that you THINK you're right, but do you automatically assume that everything you think is true must be true just because you think it is?

Apparantly you think you're right as well.

And if you can see that you could be wrong, how do you justify forcing your opinion about this on everyone else?

I have the opinion of liberals shoved down my throat every day of my life in every area of my life...from politics to social issues to religion. I'm fairly conservative. The shoving and forcing comes from all directions in this country. That's America.

Don't you care about their right to form their own opinion and to live by them, at all?

My opinion on abortion doesn't override a pro-choicer's right to opinionate.

Do you support political issues based upon not your own personal convictions and feelings...but the convictions and feelings of others?

It goes both ways.

If you're supportive of a woman's right to abort. Support it!

I have the right to speak out against it!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why do you automatically assume that YOUR concept of murder should trump mine?

We're a demoncracy (well, sort of in America). We decide together what murder is, based on reason.

Societies have always allowed for killing. We kill some criminals, but that isn't murder. We kill enemies of the state, sending professional soldiers to do the job. In war, we even tolerate the killing of innocent women and children, but that is collateral damage and not murder. Abortion, for now, is killing that is permissible, but it is not murder.

I forsee, however, that abortion will go out of style as technology improves.

 

[PureX]

This goes both ways.

It only "goes both ways" if we each have the right to decide for ourselves what we choose to define as "murder". If you're going to decide this for everyone, then it's not "going both ways", anymore. It's only one way.

Why do you automatically assume that YOUR concept of murder should trump mine?

I have posted nothing at all about what my concept of "murder" or abortion is. Nor have I posted anything that would suggest that you should agree with my concept of it.

Are you capable of grasping the idea that YOU may be wrong?

It is obvious that I am aware of this possibility, as I am the one who brought it up, and who is using it to illuminate the right of free choice.

I have the opinion of liberals shoved down my throat every day of my life in every area of my life...from politics to social issues to religion. I'm fairly conservative. The shoving and forcing comes from all directions in this country. That's America.

Well, no one is forcing you to do anything that you don't believe is right, are they? No one is forcing you to have an abortion, or to have sex outside of marriage, or to follow their religion, or to deny your religion, or to engage in homosexuality, or in bigamy, or in any other activity that you believe to be wrong, are they? So how exactly are the opinions of others being "forced down your throat"?

Also, the definition of conservatism implies the desire to maintain (to conserve) the status quo. Since the right to an abortion has been the status quo in America for some thirty years now, the desire to ban abortion would no longer be considered a "conservative" desire. In fact, it would be a desire to change status rather than a desire to maintain current status, so it would actually be a radical desire, not a conservative one. I mention this because we seem to be having a real problem in America these days with being honest and accurate regarding the meaning of the terms we're using. Politicians and media muck-rakers have been deliberately mislabeling people and ideas to deliberately misrepresent and slander them. I feel it's important to correct these misconceptions when I see them.

My opinion on abortion doesn't override a pro-choicer's right to opinionate.

That's true, and appreciated. However, your desire to force other people act against their will, and according to your own opinions, is in reality a desire to violate their sovereignty as equal and individual member of the human race. And as such will naturally inspire a defensive reaction on the part of others. Your position ignores the rights of other people to live by their own ideas of what's right and wrong, and so is a threat to their fundamental liberty.

Do you support political issues based upon not your own personal convictions and feelings...but the convictions and feelings of others?

I certainly do! In fact, the political positions I hold most dear in life are those that give you the right to do and say things that I believe are wrong.

It goes both ways.

If you're supportive of a woman's right to abort. Support it!

I have the right to speak out against it!

But you don't have the right to make other people live according to your beliefs. And this is what most anti-abortion folks fail to understand or appreciate.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

So what about a womans right to privacy to prostitute herself? why is that not federally protected? Why is it not a federally protected right to privacy to use narcotics? Why doesnt right to privacy pertain to polygamy? I would have to disagree, Look at some of the reasons given by the justices who decided Roe v Wade, and then tell me they were following the constitution in their decision.You are right, public opinion does not rule in America, but neither does a Justice's preference. Picking and choosing what has a right to privacy is ludicrous. Yes there are certain amendments that grant specific privacy rights, but in no way does that mean Americans have an absolute right to privacy.

Examining the items listed, prostitution, illicit narcotic use, polygamy, vs. the issue of access to abortion, one must examine how society is affected and the issue of whether or not society has a right to enact laws regarding such things as prostitution, illicit narcotics use, polygamy.

I, personally, find the sex trade distasteful. When laws are enacted, unfortunately, they focus on prostitutes, not those who use the services of prostitutes, the johns, not those who profit from the economic activities of prostitutes, the pimps. If true economic, social, and political equality were enjoyed by women, I believe that the incidence of prostitution would be enormously reduced. There is also the social problem of widespread violence against prostitutes, the other crimes associated with prostitution.

Polygamy is also distasteful. Furthermore, I believe it to be harmful to society. Where polygamy is practiced the pool of females available to males is reduced. Females are then available only to richer, older, successful males and young males are unable to marry and have families. This feature has created great numbers of frustrated men within certain patriarchal religious communities and these young, frustrated men are easily employed in suicide attacks upon opponents of these religions because these religions promise a paradise after death with 70 virgins available for sexual congress for every martyr.

Which brings me to the main point of why prostitution and polygamy is distasteful. It reduces the human state of women to that of a mere commodity.

Illicit drug use is also, I believe, harmful to society. Drugs decrease the ability of an individual to act in the best way possible. Unfortunately, alcohol is another drug that affects individuals in the same way and it has been shown that Prohibition of alcohol in the U.S. in the early part of the 20th century spawned a thriving industry of criminal entrepreneurs. The same thing is occurring by banning certain drugs. This remains to be sorted out legally.

But, as to abortion, I do not find that access to abortion harms society. I find it to be beneficial to society on the whole. When abortion was illegal there were many ugly deaths and tragedies--one occurred within my own extended family, and I have anecdotal information on other ugly deaths within the group of my friends and acquaintances. There is historical documentation of the economic waste incurred by the septic wards which became necessary for the medical treatment of botched illegal, unsafe abortions. These facilities and resources might have been better used for prenatal care, obstetric care, taking care of other sorts of medical problems. Abortion should be safe, legal and accessible. It is a boon to society.

On the other hand, abortion should be rare. There should be comprehensive sex education. There should be better access to contraception.

Also, many women choose abortion because of pressing economic considerations. If women enjoyed economic equality, if they were not penalized at work, in the pursuit of their chosen careers, for taking time off because of possible illness during pregnancy, for the birth and recovery from birth, for parenting and bonding with the new child, if women were not so severely penalized by American policies for being primarily responsible for the care and welfare of their children, many women would choose not to have abortions.

Having a child and being a parent is very, very, very costly for a woman in family unfriendly America.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

I disagree in this instance

Sooo, what are your reasons for not allowing women to make decisions?

 

[JillianMarie77]

Darn it! I just had a big long reply to Dawny and it got eaten up somehow!

Here's the short version.

Abstinence is the only 100% effective BC. No matter how many times you say "use bc, doube up" it won't make it 100% effective.

I never played ignorant to sex resulting in pregnancy and in fact made numerous comments about sex and pregnancy. Try again.

IMO 12 weeks should be the line in the sand when it comes to abortion. After that it should be for medical reasons only.

Regardless of your religious stance unless you are a complete pacifist and don't believe in war, self defense, capital punishment etc then you are not pro-life. You place value judgments on life in all of these situations and who better to place a value judgement on life in-utero than the owner of the uterus?!

The PP info is verifiable from outside sources. See for yourself. However I understand that you have to ignore that information in order for your argument to hold up. The rest of see the statistics and know that EDUCATION is the only way to make abortion rates plummet. Not to mention teen pregnancy. The impact once owmen learn to respect their bodies and the power of pro-creation would be hugely significant. Unlike the criminalization of abortion.

You agree that you wouldn't call a person who was financiall, emotionally or otherwise incapable of caring for a child who has one responsible. Perhaps you agree that soemtimes the "responsible" choice, the "common sense" choice is not the most pleasant one - but the "right" one none the less.

 

[dawny0826]

We're a demoncracy (well, sort of in America). We decide together what murder is, based on reason.

Sure.

Abortion, for now, is killing that is permissible, but it is not murder.

If I didn't feel strongly that it was, AE...I wouldn't be pro-life.

I forsee, however, that abortion will go out of style as technology improves.

)( = my fingers

 

[dawny0826]

Darn it! I just had a big long reply to Dawny and it got eaten up somehow!

Here's the short version.

I hate it when that happens.

Abstinence is the only 100% effective BC. No matter how many times you say "use bc, doube up" it won't make it 100% effective.

Had you read any of my responses to this thread and others...you'd realize that I have stated the very same thing many times.

In my opinion...if you're not in a stable relationship...you're not financially, emotionally or physically ready for a baby...you should abstain from sex. And if you HAVE to have it...see your OBGYN...find the most effective Birth control method for your personal circumstances AND have him utilize contraception as well. The statistics for pregnancy to occur are much lower if a person is responsible about it.

AND it also helps if a women is in tune to her own body. I think every women should be educated on charting and how to take and read basal temps. I also think a women should pay close attention to and listen to her body...making note of the monthly changes that take place around ovulation.

I know my body. And I thoroughly researched conception, pregnany and childbirth BEFORE attempting to conceive.

I never played ignorant to sex resulting in pregnancy and in fact made numerous comments about sex and pregnancy. Try again.

I wasn't directing that comment to you specifically.

IMO 12 weeks should be the line in the sand when it comes to abortion. After that it should be for medical reasons only.

So, YOU'RE entitled to an opinion here.

Regardless of your religious stance unless you are a complete pacifist and don't believe in war, self defense, capital punishment etc then you are not pro-life. You place value judgments on life in all of these situations and who better to place a value judgement on life in-utero than the owner of the uterus?!

Give me a break.

Okay, let me elaborate...I'm pro-life when it comes to ABORTION.

Now, I will answer you from a religious perspective. I don't think that any woman reserves the right to play God. My views on whose life the unborn TRULY belongs to differs greatly from yours, I'm sure.

The PP info is verifiable from outside sources. See for yourself. However I understand that you have to ignore that information in order for your argument to hold up. The rest of see the statistics and know that EDUCATION is the only way to make abortion rates plummet. Not to mention teen pregnancy. The impact once owmen learn to respect their bodies and the power of pro-creation would be hugely significant. Unlike the criminalization of abortion.

You are reiterating what I've said time and time again. This isn't news to me.

I agree 100% that EDUCATION is imperative. Women and men need to educate themselves and make responsible decisions concerning their sexuality.

I can agree with you on education and still view that abortion is criminal.

I abhore Planned Parenthood.

And for the record, I did not go out of my way to pull stats from a conservative site.

You agree that you wouldn't call a person who was financiall, emotionally or otherwise incapable of caring for a child who has one responsible. Perhaps you agree that soemtimes the "responsible" choice, the "common sense" choice is not the most pleasant one - but the "right" one none the less

I believe adoption would be the better choice for the unwanted child.

If you want to run around in circles with me on this...I'm game for it.

I agree with much of what you've said pertaining to responsibility and education...this has been my platform on the abortion issue since day 1.