The word Pagan

[Unveiled Artist]

Here, it's important to consider that our modernized understanding of religion is rather odd compared to how it was understood in the past. While today we put a constructed wedge between "culture" and "religion" this wasn't done by indigenous peoples, as far as I'm aware. Because of this, various Pagan cultures likely did not have names for their religions - their religions were fully embedded within their cultural identities and ways of life. They would have just been "the people" so to speak. Terms like atheist, pagan, and polytheist were all labels created by monotheists to describe non-monotheist outsiders.

True. Im gearing towards if they calles themselves by their family name as some do today. Other ways they would identify themselves compared to a neighboring community that may belief differently.

Say, in parts of Ghana (as told by a associate from there), each village believes in their own god/s. They share the same religion (as how modern day would see it) or same culture, but they different in custums and gods related. As such, I think he said they gonby matrimonial names rather than in america we go by patrimonial. That, and I agree, religious labels werent used then. Id say its more an identity they used for family (spiritual, community, blood) rather than based on belief (polytheistic, monottheistic, atheist)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because by taking control of the word we give it our own meaning and potency. We're making 'pagan' into 'Pagan'. By doing that, we're sucking the poison out of it the same way black people are with the n-word. Frankly, there's not many terms better suited to act as an umbrella for the respective Pagan traditions out there and to think of one when we have a word ready to use is a waste of time.

I guess ig balls down to personal preference. I dont use any form of the n/ word. In my family, even Black is derogatory. Africa American isnt accurate. And we arent "other". Just American unless we individually do our family research and geneology. Im in the process of that.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

My problem with the word pagan (despite using it!) is that it's been hijacked (like so many things) by the Wiccans.

If you define "pagan" as the early Christians used it, to refer to those who worshiped the gods, or as many modern scholars use it, to refer to primal religions which have grown up naturally (which amounts to the same thing in practice), then I'm a pagan.

But on the internet, pagan gets used for "neopagan": any religion that was invented (just like Christianity) but with the aim at restoring an ancient paganism. I'm not a neopagan. My beliefs have much in common with those of Africans, Chinese, or Japanese pagans, and even some Hindus, but little in common with Wicca.

As for the derogatory bit, obsession with "correct language" is rather USian and often ill-informed. Inuit is not the polite term for an Eskimo: 90% of US Eskimo are not Inuit. Roma is not a polite term for a Gypsy: the German Sinti do not call themselves Roma and the term Gypsy is actually used by some Gypsy organisations.

 

[Politesse]

90% of US Eskimo are not Inuit.

Whoa, who told you that one? No, definitely do not go around calling people by racially pejorative terms just because the new "polite" term is also inaccurate. That's like saying that it is better to call all Europeans "Honkies" because most of them aren't actually "British". A Frenchman might rather be called a Honky than a Brit, but he'd rather just be called French.

 

[Valjean]

When I hear "Pagan" I think generalized non-Christian, not anything formal with a specific set of beliefs.
But I note some people here seem to be using it as a religion in it's own right, presumably with a distinct theology, mythology, &c. I thing there's even a Pagan DIR. For some reason Norse mythology seems to figure prominently whenever 'Pagan' comes up.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Whoa, who told you that one?

Off-topic, but I'll answer. There are 6 Eskimo languages: 5 belong to the Yupik family, spoken in Alaska and Siberia, and the other is Iñupiaq, a dialect chain spoken from North Alaska to Greenland. The word "Inuit" only exists in Iñupiaq: it is meaningless to a speaker of a Yupik language. The Canadian Eskimo insist on being called Inuit; Greenlandic Eskimo, when speaking English, call themselves Greenlanders; Alaskan Eskimo (90% speakers of Central Alaskan Yupik and Pacific Gulf Yupok, 10% Iñupiaq speakers) can use Eskimo as a term which unites them all.

Unless you're a Canadian (and there's not much I can do for you if you are), using Eskimo is not pejorative. It's the normal word among anthropologists and linguists, and I prefer to take my terminology from scholars than from the uneducated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I hear "Pagan" I think generalized non-Christian, not anything formal with a specific set of beliefs.
But I note some people here seem to be using it as a religion in it's own right, presumably with a distinct theology, mythology, &c. I thing there's even a Pagan DIR. For some reason Norse mythology seems to figure prominently whenever 'Pagan' comes up.

The distinction is by spelling. p-agan is any person who is not Christian, Muslim, and Jew and practices prechristian religions.

P-agan (in my opinion. Answers vary) is a religious who is polytheistic, prechristian, European, and/or folk practitioners by region of their country or family practices rather than religion.

Some neopagans refer to themselves as Pagans since the term is not concretely defined. Idegeneous traditions may not consider themselves P-agan and neo but are under pagan religious beliefs.

With the OP, Id say pagan is a deragatory word. Pagan is an identity title just as Catholic, Shia, and Othorodox Jew is to Christian, Muslim, and Judaism respectively.

 

[Politesse]

Unless you're a Canadian (and there's not much I can do for you if you are), using Eskimo is not pejorative. It's the normal word among anthropologists and linguists, and I prefer to take my terminology from scholars than from the uneducated.

I am an anthropologist, and I can assure you it is not our practice to call people anything but what they call themselves. While Eskimo is, as you observe, a common enough term in Alaska, its questionable history and negative perception in Canada and Greenland means that we tend to avoid it anyway wherever possible, and simply say Yupik if that is what we mean. One legacy of the Indian schools was to raise generations of kids to call themselves by outsider terms, often to the exclusion of their parent's ethnonyms. But we don't like to add to that pile. And Eskimo would be too vague a term for a linguist, in part for the reasons you just described; the only context in which I regularly hear the term is in interview with someone who uses it, or as one half of "Eskimo-Aleut", the name of the language family that encompasses all three subfamilies.

 

[Angy Ex Arcana]

The distinction is by spelling. p-agan is any person who is not Christian, Muslim, and Jew and practices prechristian religions.

P-agan (in my opinion. Answers vary) is a religious who is polytheistic, prechristian, European, and/or folk practitioners by region of their country or family practices rather than religion.

Some neopagans refer to themselves as Pagans since the term is not concretely defined. Idegeneous traditions may not consider themselves P-agan and neo but are under pagan religious beliefs.

With the OP, Id say pagan is a deragatory word. Pagan is an identity title just as Catholic, Shia, and Othorodox Jew is to Christian, Muslim, and Judaism respectively.

This my answer not is a provocation, is a real question. ^_^
I, definite myself " eclectic pagan" because i don't follow 1 " path" but more " Path" pagans.
What is the correct definition for me.
" Eclectic follows old. religion before christ" ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This my answer not is a provocation, is a real question. ^_^

Can you rephrase please?

 

[Cassandra]

This my answer not is a provocation, is a real question. ^_^
I, definite myself " eclectic pagan" because i don't follow 1 " path" but more " Path" pagans.
What is the correct definition for me.
" Eclectic follows old. religion before christ" ?

New Age?

Eclectic sounds like something typical of New Age to me. A Pagan will find inspiration elsewhere but still feel connected to one tradition/movement. As so much of our traditions is lost it is almost inescapable to study other Pagan cultures to understand our own, but that is not following more than one path.

 

[Callisto]

Not all who come under the heading of "Neopagan" use that term or "pagan" to self-identify. Most Reconstructionists prefer the word "Polytheist". Not only due to the derogatory meaning associated with "pagan" but because it's not a word ancient polytheists self-identified with. Some can be sticklers on this while others, as a form of shorthand when dealing with those outside of Recon circles, will allow for those words in general discussion.

This my answer not is a provocation, is a real question. ^_^
I, definite myself " eclectic pagan" because i don't follow 1 " path" but more " Path" pagans.
What is the correct definition for me.
" Eclectic follows old. religion before christ" ?

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're saying. But if I'm understanding you correctly, that Eclectic = follows old religion, then I would disagree. Eclecticism primarily de-emphasizes tradition as well as the methodology associated with pursuing ancient religions. It advocates cherrypicking from a range of sources and values UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) above all else. That is why statements like "there is no right or wrong way" and "do what feels right" are seen as sufficient for developing one's practices.

 

[Politesse]

Not all who come under the heading of "Neopagan" use that term or "pagan" to self-identify. Most Reconstructionists prefer the word "Polytheist". Not only due to the derogatory meaning associated with "pagan" but because it's not a word ancient polytheists self-identified with.

Neither was "polytheist", that term is no older than the Enlightenment, and those who coined it were Christians with only a dim understanding of what the Roman world had been like... It also makes an implicit comparison to monotheism just with its construction. What's the difference?

 

[Quintessence]

Neither was "polytheist", that term is no older than the Enlightenment, and those who coined it were Christians with only a dim understanding of what the Roman world had been like... It also makes an implicit comparison to monotheism just with its construction. What's the difference?

I'd always wondered about that myself. I suspect that there's a greater level of ignorance surrounding the origins of the word "polytheist" than there is for the word "pagan." After all, it is routine for introductory, mass market books to mention the etymology and origins of the word "pagan" but not for the word "polytheism." I didn't learn about this until I read it in a more scholarly work a couple years ago or so.

 

[Callisto]

Neither was "polytheist", that term is no older than the Enlightenment, and those who coined it were Christians with only a dim understanding of what the Roman world had been like... It also makes an implicit comparison to monotheism just with its construction. What's the difference?

Neither was modern English. However, the word does originate from the Hellenic "polytheos" (of many gods), just as atheism comes from atheos (denying the gods thus godless). Ancient peoples commonly didn't have a word that equates "religion" since interaction with the gods was not seen as a separate thing from daily life, but we use that word to convey those aspects that pertain to that interaction. Most modern people accept the word because it is not used a pejorative. "Pagan," however was used with a negative connotation. What other term would an ancient Hellene (in this instance) use if one could be asked to describe his interactions with the gods that would be other than "polytheia"?

 

[Politesse]

Neither was modern English. However, the word does originate from the Hellenic "polytheos" (of many gods), just as atheism comes from atheos (denying the gods thus godless). Ancient peoples commonly didn't have a word that equates "religion" since interaction with the gods was not seen as a separate thing from daily life, but we use that word to convey those aspects that pertain to that interaction. Most modern people accept the word because it is not used a pejorative. "Pagan," however was used with a negative connotation. What other term would an ancient Hellene (in this instance) use if one could be asked to describe his interactions with the gods that would be other than "polytheia"?

Probably liturgia or pistis depending on what they were trying to refer to. But those aren't religious labels, more like facets of life. There were no religious labels in the modern sense, though occasionally pejorative labels attached to the followers of this god/philosopher or that one. So it is not a question that has a right answer per se. It would not have occurred to anyone to define the state religion as "a religion" with a label and a name, as though it were just another religious movement.

I disagree that the term polytheism was not perjorative in intent, when it first debuted as a term; there is little doubt that 16th c. Christians were of strong opinions concerning more-than-trinitarian divisions of Godhead. Its inventors could not have meant it as a compliment. Its coiner in English was a polemicist named Samuel Purchas, whose goal was to rant against the Papacy for making gods of the saints. And as noted, it makes an implicit comparison to monotheism along with an insane generalization about any other perspective.

 

[psychoslice]

I believe Christianity in many ways evolved from Paganism, and then turned around and bit the hand that feed them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'd always wondered about that myself. I suspect that there's a greater level of ignorance surrounding the origins of the word "polytheist" than there is for the word "pagan." After all, it is routine for introductory, mass market books to mention the etymology and origins of the word "pagan" but not for the word "polytheism." I didn't learn about this until I read it in a more scholarly work a couple years ago or so.

Im not well versed in history, but wouldnt it make sense that poly is more than one and adding that to theist would be a belief in more than one god?

Do you (and you guys) know if polytheism has a deeper meaning or does it depend on the individual who identifies as such?

 

[Callisto]

Probably liturgia or pistis depending on what they were trying to refer to. But those aren't religious labels, more like facets of life. There were no religious labels in the modern sense, though occasionally pejorative labels attached to the followers of this god/philosopher or that one. So it is not a question that has a right answer per se. It would not have occurred to anyone to define the state religion as "a religion" with a label and a name, as though it were just another religious movement.

I disagree that the term polytheism was not perjorative in intent, when it first debuted as a term; there is little doubt that 16th c. Christians were of strong opinions concerning more-than-trinitarian divisions of Godhead. Its inventors could not have meant it as a compliment. Its coiner in English was a polemicist named Samuel Purchas, whose goal was to rant against the Papacy for making gods of the saints. And as noted, it makes an implicit comparison to monotheism along with an insane generalization about any other perspective.

As I previously stated, ancient peoples did not have a word that equates “religion” as we use it.

Modern polytheists use “polytheist” to represent their acknowledgment of deity which is multiple and not singular. To ask an ancient Greek what their acknowledgment of deity is, it would be there are many. Leitourgia (liturgia) is a word that pertained to public service, not one's awareness of multiple gods' existence. And was used primarily in terms of wealthy citizens contributing to civic life, not about the popular religion of the common person, which is to what Reconstructionisms largely pertain. Pistis would also not been a choice as it pertains to the notion of persuaded belief, i.e., “faith” such as that which exists in Christian faith but not in Hellenic religion, to the ancient Greeks pistis was subjective and an impersonal god (embodiment of admirable traits).

Reconstructionists use “polytheism” because it does not carry the baggage “pagan” does and would be a word that an ancient would accept as valid if they had to self-identify with either. Whatever negative connotation one might want to reach back to the 16t c. to point to, such does not carry into modern society. Until the advent of modern polytheism, the term was most often employed in academic fields. Whereas “pagan” has long been common in the mainstream, carrying negative use and stereotypes that have not waned despite the centuries or the spread of Neopaganism.

 

[Politesse]

As I previously stated, ancient peoples did not have a word that equates “religion” as we use it.

Well, I obviously agree. So how is there a "right" term, here?

Reconstructionists use “polytheism” because it does not carry the baggage “pagan” does. Whatever negative connotation one might want to reach back centuries to point to, such does not carry into modern society, until the advent of modern practices it’d been a term used primarily in academic fields. Whereas “pagan” continues to carry negative use and stereotypes that have not waned despite the centuries and despite the spread of Neopaganism.

I would venture to guees that pretty much the exact same people despise both pagans and polytheists, and not because of terminology.