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Theistic Evolution?

Reflex

Active Member
Even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP, atheists here are like children on a playground yelling, “Prove it! Prove that there is a purpose behind evolution!” Do they have any idea, any idea at all, of just how inane that is?

Ravi Zacharis tells an amusing story about a visit to the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts at Ohio State University whose confused outside architecture intensifies when you enter the building, for inside you encounter stairways that go nowhere, pillars that hang from the ceiling without purpose and angled surfaces configured to create a sense of vertigo. The architect, we are duly informed, designed this building to reflect life itself—senseless and incoherent—and the “capriciousness of the rules that organize the built world.' Zacharis had but one question: Did the architect do the same with the foundation?

For a theist, God, properly described, is the foundation; God is the reason why things are the way they are. That is not to say anything about God, but only to indicate a way of making sense of the world. The theist is by no means bound to declare he knows with empirical certainty exactly who God is or what his nature is. Far from being a “failed hypothesis,” God is anything but retreating before science as many critics would have us believe. On the contrary, the God hypothesis has expanded and evolved over the centuries because of science, and until someone can provide a satisfactory alternative, the God hypothesis will not go away.

There is a crucial difference between believing something that works but may be wrong and denying it for no reason at all. It is not sufficient to simply reject the hypothesis; the rejection must be justified by either proving the explanation to be logically incoherent. Failing in that ('you can't prove a negative' is the oft used excuse), the atheist must substitute another hypothesis in place of God in order to justify his rejection of God, and furthermore he must provide evidence for that hypothesis or be dismissed as someone living in a senseless and incoherent world.

Atheists never tire of trying to dismantle theistic beliefs, but when their feet are held to the fire, the untenability of atheism is so obvious that atheists will often conveniently sidestep the claim with a fallacious equivocation of atheism to the agnostic position. “I dunno,” becomes a convenient escape route. To say “I dunno, but I’m really, really sure it isn’t God” is what atheist Richard Dawkins calls ‘the argument from personal incredulity.’

Atheism and agnosticism are functionally identical. Agnosticism is mere confabulation designed to circumvent the effort it takes to seriously consider the actual question or to dispose of the understandably irritating task of justifying one’s beliefs. The only mindset that can possibly justify agnosticism, as the word suggests, is one of absolute ignorance. There is no absolute middle, just as there is no absolute ‘true’belief.' The correctness of “I dunno” does not change the fact that it is a meaningless epistemic state. Nor does it change the fact that an open mind, like an open mouth, is designed to clamp down on something. Dogs are agnostic, humans merely pretend to be. For human beings, there is no such thing as no believing at all. By saying “I dunno,” the atheist/agnostic forfeits the debate. As Soren Kierkegaard remarked, “To venture causes anxiety, but not to venture is to lose one's self. … And to venture in the highest sense is precisely to become conscious of one's self.”
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I see no attempt at understanding in your posts. More just vague statements that try to open up enough uncertainty to push your agenda in.
if love is an agenda, a person should be so lucky.


projection

the uncertainty principle applies
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
You failed to address my questions. I'll give you another shot. You have to differentiate God (from light and love) as something that exists independently. Can you do that? What makes God different than love and light and/or the combination of both? If you can't do this, the concept of God, according to your logic, is superfluous. There is no reason for God, as we already have terms for love and light.

ideas are bullet proof mr. creedy.

explaining something in mathematical and/or rigorous terms may make you feel comfortable but ideas can be explained innumerable ways.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
@Reflex - you make some valid points. One thing though, while there are some atheists who do seem to enjoy sparring with theists, there are a good number who just keep to themselves, and feel that they are not living in an 'incoherent and senseless' world. All the big questions that can't be answered, they are simply 'okay' with saying 'I don't know.' While they believe theists are uncomfortable with saying 'I don't know,' and fill in what we don't know, with a 'god of the gaps' theory. I was an atheist, it was something I remember thinking about theists/believers. It is easy for both sides honestly, to get caught up in ego, and since returning to faith last year, I don't have the desire to really prove my points to anyone, anymore. Healthy debate, sure...but not sparring and trying to 'win' an argument. Everyone has to live with the path they're on, and if the path they're on leads to atheism, and they are content with it, so be it. It isn't for me to argue against that, and likewise, it is nice when atheists don't try to argue me away from my position. Sadly, I've found more Christians try to pick battles with me, than atheists these days. lol
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
@Reflex - you make some valid points. One thing though, while there are some atheists who do seem to enjoy sparring with theists, there are a good number who just keep to themselves, and feel that they are not living in an 'incoherent and senseless' world. All the big questions that can't be answered, they are simply 'okay' with saying 'I don't know.' While they believe theists are uncomfortable with saying 'I don't know,' and fill in what we don't know, with a 'god of the gaps' theory. I was an atheist, it was something I remember thinking about theists/believers. It is easy for both sides honestly, to get caught up in ego, and since returning to faith last year, I don't have the desire to really prove my points to anyone, anymore. Healthy debate, sure...but not sparring and trying to 'win' an argument. Everyone has to live with the path they're on, and if the path they're on leads to atheism, and they are content with it, so be it. It isn't for me to argue against that, and likewise, it is nice when atheists don't try to argue me away from my position. Sadly, I've found more Christians try to pick battles with me, than atheists these days. lol

Even though I disagree with you on almost everything, I also think that it is your prerogative, to label yourself whatever religious adherence/
I as well, notice that many Xians will debate with me, as well, haha.
The only issue I have with your assessment of 'atheism', is that it might assume a stance or /stance for theists....and since Theists have different reasons etc for being theist, this is not therefore, a logical inference.
I do notice that many atheists make assumptions, etc, in their arguments. Ie, you seem to have a fairly 'positive' view of the atheist position.....which may be not accurate to the situation, arguments, etc/

~q konn
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Even though I disagree with you on almost everything, I also think that it is your prerogative, to label yourself whatever religious adherence/
I as well, notice that many Xians will debate with me, as well, haha.
The only issue I have with your assessment of 'atheism', is that it might assume a stance or /stance for theists....and since Theists have different reasons etc for being theist, this is not therefore, a logical inference.
I do notice that many atheists make assumptions, etc, in their arguments. Ie, you seem to have a fairly 'positive' view of the atheist position.....which may be not accurate to the situation, arguments, etc/

~q konn
I was once an atheist, so I only speak from how I viewed it at that time, my own set of experiences. No one can speak for anyone else, that's the problem with humans...we all want to speak for each other. :rolleyes:
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Often, people believe in either/or. Either one believes in the theory of evolution or believes in creationism. But, is it acceptable for lack of a better word, for a Christian to believe that God is the impetus behind Darwin's theory of evolution? Or, is this why ''theistic evolution'' came about? (in order for there to be a bridge (of sorts) between both schools of thought)

Looking forward to your thoughts on the topic.

Sure. I don't see the problem with believing in a god or gods simultaneously with evolution. I'm strongly against teaching such a belief as fact in classrooms, but other than that I'm okay with it.

I think it is definitely intellectually superior to old-school creationism—the belief that all creatures came into existence in their current form as a result of the actions of a deity or deities.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
“Prove it! Prove that there is a purpose behind evolution!” Do they have any idea, any idea at all, of just how inane that is?

Based on reading their comments in this and other threads, I don't think so. Science can only give mechanistic explanations, not teleological ones. So, if we are demanding scientific evidence to validate the presence or existence of something (as skeptics and atheists are inclined to do), then we would have to acknowledge that there is no scientific evidence for any creative intelligence whatsoever (human, divine, or otherwise.) IOW, the skeptic or atheist would have to deny his or her own creative intelligence.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Sure. I don't see the problem with believing in a god or gods simultaneously with evolution. I'm strongly against teaching such a belief as fact in classrooms, but other than that I'm okay with it.

I think it is definitely intellectually superior to old-school creationism—the belief that all creatures came into existence in their current form as a result of the actions of a deity or deities.

Yes, this is how I feel about it too. I definitely don't think that religion should spring up in public school classrooms.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Right. But Catholicism does teach that Adam and Eve were real people, and that all human beings have descended from them.

This is a VERY interesting read, hope you take some time to look it over. I like the explanation of Adam and Eve by these Catholic and Protestant 'scholars.' It is great to see the religious community coming around to upholding the validity of science, when for a long time it just kept its collective head buried in the sand ...ignoring scientific truths as if one would be betraying his/her religion in order to embrace science.

http://www.catholicreview.org/artic...as-evolving-answer-on-reality-of-adam-and-eve
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Based on reading their comments in this and other threads, I don't think so. Science can only give mechanistic explanations, not teleological ones. So, if we are demanding scientific evidence to validate the presence or existence of something (as skeptics and atheists are inclined to do), then we would have to acknowledge that there is no scientific evidence for any creative intelligence whatsoever (human, divine, or otherwise.) IOW, the skeptic or atheist would have to deny his or her own creative intelligence.

Going with this, then yes. Agree.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
This is a VERY interesting read, hope you take some time to look it over. I like the explanation of Adam and Eve by these Catholic and Protestant 'scholars.' It is great to see the religious community coming around to upholding the validity of science, when for a long time it just kept its collective head buried in the sand ...ignoring scientific truths as if one would be betraying his/her religion in order to embrace science.

I read the article. As I see it, Fr. Guinan is just engaging in spin-doctoring. If evolution is true (which it most certainly is), then Catholicism falls completely apart. Why? Because there really is no Adam and Eve, no original sin and fall from grace. And for the Church to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that it does not speak with infallible authority on doctrines concerning the faith.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I read the article. As I see it, Fr. Guinan is just engaging in spin-doctoring. If evolution is true (which it most certainly is), then Catholicism falls completely apart. Why? Because there really is no Adam and Eve, no original sin and fall from grace. And for the Church to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that it does not speak with infallible authority on doctrines concerning the faith.

Yessss. Definitely see your point.

Never understood the 'need' to inject 'original sin' into the foundation of Christianity, tbh. Why not just tell the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for morality, or even if to be taken literally, why a need to take their 'sin' and place it as a curse over all of mankind? Just seems like an unnecessary piece to add to the story.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
Never understood the 'need' to inject 'original sin' into the foundation of Christianity, tbh. Why not just tell the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for morality, or even if to be taken literally, why a need to take their 'sin' and place it as a curse over all of mankind? Just seems like an unnecessary piece to add to the story.

Well, I guess you could also ask why the need for a virgin birth and a sacrificial death.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
lol ''need''

Hmmm...

Here's the apparent need.

Thomas Aquinas wrote that human beings incur original sin through being begotten by the active power in a man's semen.[19] Therefore, he felt, it was proper that Christ assumed flesh from a woman, as "the power of a man's semen ought not to have accomplished the formation of Christ's body."[20]

(source: Wikipedia: Virgin birth of Jesus)

Well, now that I think of it. Mary was conceived without original sin. No virgin birth necessary. But, then, again, if there is no original sin, then there is no need for either the virgin birth or the immaculate conception.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Here's the apparent need.



Well, now that I think of it. Mary was conceived without original sin. No virgin birth necessary. But, then, again, if there is no original sin, then there is no need for either the virgin birth or the immaculate conception.

And thus we are unraveling why there are 33,000+ denominations of Christianity...
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yessss. Definitely see your point.

Never understood the 'need' to inject 'original sin' into the foundation of Christianity, tbh. Why not just tell the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for morality, or even if to be taken literally, why a need to take their 'sin' and place it as a curse over all of mankind? Just seems like an unnecessary piece to add to the story.
Because it's a just-so story for why suffering exists. It's a way to reconcile - or attempt to reconcile - their idea of a perfect God with the reality of an imperfect world. It's a curse over all mankind because all mankind suffers to some extent.

Also, if Original Sin doesn't literally affect every single person, then you introduce the possibility that there may be people who don't need salvation in Christ. That's counter-productive for an evangelizing religion.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Because it's a just-so story for why suffering exists. It's a way to reconcile - or attempt to reconcile - their idea of a perfect God with the reality of an imperfect world. It's a curse over all mankind because all mankind suffers to some extent.

Also, if Original Sin doesn't literally affect every single person, then you introduce the possibility that there may be people who don't need salvation in Christ. That's counter-productive for an evangelizing religion.

True. Do you think religions invented the idea of original sin, to explain away (lack of a better phrase) ...human suffering?

If we answer that question as 'yes,' then we are suggesting that people only suffer due to their sin. Interestingly, and sadly...many Christians actually believe this. I have had the experience of meeting a few recently, who think just that...that the sum total of suffering is from current sin (our own deliberate sin) and original sin.

I'm really glad to have posted this topic, you are all very insightful, and have given much food for thought!!
 
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