Theistic Evolution

[tumbleweed41]

The so-called deistic god is not a god at all according to probably 95 percent or more of god-believers, who demand at least some "hands-on" activilty from their god.

So, majority rules?
However, I use God as a convenient way to name a "Prime Mover"

 

[Autodidact]

Looking at all of the species that went extinct it would seem that the theistic evolutionary god had some trouble getting it right.

Not if species going extinct is part of God's total plan.

 

[Draka]

Looking at all of the species that went extinct it would seem that the theistic evolutionary god had some trouble getting it right.

Whereas the god of creation just getting tired of looking at certain species and tapping them to die out makes so much more sense. Guess we best make sure that we are at least entertaining him so we don't get tapped next huh?

 

[painted wolf]

You know, because a designer god who makes mistakes and misleads people is much more authentic.

wa:do

 

[Draka]

You know, because a designer god who makes mistakes and misleads people is much more authentic.

wa:do

Yay, our own bumbling prankster god! Not only does he screw up and have to "fix things" from time to time, but he likes to screw with us by placing fake fossils all around us so we think the earth is older than he made it. Yeah buddy! Just who I want to worship. If that's the case then I'd have to wonder if perhaps we are in the "special ed" section of the universe where the "challenged" gods get to play? :cover:

 

[painted wolf]

Hey as a fan of Grandfather Coyote, I feel I should try to somehow defend the usefulness of a guy with a learning curve.

wa:do

 

[fantome profane]

Looking at all of the species that went extinct it would seem that the theistic evolutionary god had some trouble getting it right.

Well that would depend on what “he” was trying to do, wouldn’t it?

But if you believe in a “God” that created all these species independently then the issue of all the species that went extinct is just as much a problem. Why do you think “God” created all these species and let them go extinct?

If “God” was creating through evolution then all the extinct species makes more sense, it is part of the process.

You may not like it but the reality is that the vast majority of species that have ever existed have gone extinct. This is a fact that we just have to deal with, whether we are atheists, theistic evolutionists, or creationists. It seems to me that the creationists would have the most difficult time dealing with it.

 

[J Bryson]

Hey as a fan of Grandfather Coyote, I feel I should try to somehow defend the usefulness of a guy with a learning curve.

wa:do

I have much appreciation for Grandfather Coyote. It's always nice to find someone to identify with outside of one's own cultural blinders.

 

[neves]

Not if species going extinct is part of God's total plan.

think about it... If the dinosaurs didn't go extinct we probably wouldn't be here...

 

[logician]

think about it... If the dinosaurs didn't go extinct we probably wouldn't be here...

Doesn't really prove anything. There were a million random events that had to happen along the path of evolution for us to be here today. Do you think a supposed god was waving his magic wand causing each one of them?

The answer is obvious - NO, evolution is blind, it does NOT see the future, or head towards some future goal, it only reacts to changing events in the PRESENT.

 

[painted wolf]

And yet it is not undirected. Natural selection is not a random process.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

Doesn't really prove anything. There were a million random events that had to happen along the path of evolution for us to be here today. Do you think a supposed god was waving his magic wand causing each one of them?

The answer is obvious - NO, evolution is blind, it does NOT see the future, or head towards some future goal, it only reacts to changing events in the PRESENT.

What I'm saying, logician, is that if God is not a tinkering God, but a majestic presence before, behind and utterly beyond our understanding, the force, whatever it may be, responsible for the existence of the entire universe, a Deist God that we could never hope to comprehend, that God would be using everything in the natural world, including evolution and extinction, to create the marvelous diversity of life on earth.

 

[logician]

And yet it is not undirected. Natural selection is not a random process.

wa:do

I agree, evolution is ruled by genetic outcomes and "survival of the fittest" strategies. However it is greatly affected by what are essentially random or at least chaotic events, in that these events cannot be predicted in advance with certainty.

 

[painted wolf]

However general trends can be predicted... Such as "Copes rule" and "Bergmann's rule".

While not certain, it isn't utterly random.

wa:do

 

[logician]

External events such as meteor or comet strikes. which can greatly affect evolution, are very random in that they are an extension of the 3 body problem to the "many-body" problem which is unsolvable. I think the point I am making is that one cannot pick a point in time(past the unicellular boundary), and predict with any great accuracy a million years down the road, what sort of creatures will have evolved.

The longer the time period, the more unpredictable the outcomes will be.

 

[painted wolf]

I can predict a general body plan for vertebrates that adapt to the oceans, or to the air...
But yes, I see you point.

I just wanted to make clear that evolution, despite the complaints of creationists is not simply a 'totally random' and 'undirected' process. It isn't.

Even if we can't predict with 100% accuracy what the future will bring, we are not totally blind either. Evolution is not chaotic.

wa:do

 

[linwood]

And yet it is not undirected. Natural selection is not a random process.

wa:do

Yet the events and environments that drive natural selection often are random.

Not always but often.

That may be part of the problem some sincerely curious creationists have understanding natural selection.

 

[painted wolf]

It's a tough concept to grasp... that a process can be both random and directed at the same time.... and totally natural.

Many people pushing creationism have been doing so by claiming that evolution is total chaos. Just random events and random coincidence. The 'lightning striking a mud puddle' nonsense.

The truth is evolution is quite orderly even if the driving factors are random in nature.

wa:do

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I make no excuses for gods I don't believe in, but it seems to me that the YEC god had quite a bit of trouble getting it right, too.

How's that?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not if species going extinct is part of God's total plan.

That would be the god who pinged the universe into existence and sat back to watch?