Theistic Evolution

[Yerda]

I agree, I'm not sure where you're going with it.

There is no room for both God's constant intervention and the mechanisms. The former is superfluous and the latter sufficient. If I proposed life were animated by a special force (extra to the energy that drives each system) I'd be in disagreement with science. This is far as I can tell, and this is why I believe we are in disagreement.

 

[Valjean]

What evolution cannot explain is the emergence of teleology from a nonteleological source. This is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one. Punting to natural selection doesn't help here.

What cannot be found is any evidence of teleology. Intention is a fantasy.

God is more than the author of the law, at least on my version of theism. God is the creator and sustainer of all things. The distinction between "natural" and "supernatural" is a modernist fiction that we'd do well to disabuse ourselves of.

Can you give us a concrete example of this "supernatural" you speak of?

 

[Yerda]

Can you give us a concrete example of this "supernatural" you speak of?

I think his point is that there is no supernatural as it has been conceived.

 

[Dunemeister]

What cannot be found is any evidence of teleology. Intention is a fantasy.

The heart has no purpose? Our conversation has no purpose? A hammer has no purpose? Can you be serious?

Can you give us a concrete example of this "supernatural" you speak of?

I'm not sure what you're asking? Are you asking me to give you a concrete example of the actions of God, or are you asking me to give you a concrete example of a god (which may be a contradition in terms)?

 

[Dunemeister]

I think his point is that there is no supernatural as it has been conceived.

The natural/supernatural distinction was invoked in the beginnings of the enlightenment for various purposes, and I think it's a mistake. My every breath is supernatural. The resurrection of Jesus was perfectly natural.

 

[Storm]

There is no room for both God's constant intervention and the mechanisms.

Of course there is. Not that it matters - theistic evolution doesn't necessitate constant tweaking.

The former is superfluous and the latter sufficient.

... and we're back to opinion.

If I proposed life were animated by a special force (extra to the energy that drives each system) I'd be in disagreement with science. This is far as I can tell, and this is why I believe we are in disagreement.

You can't disagree on a topic on which science ventures no opinion.

 

[Yerda]

Of course there is. Not that it matters - theistic evolution doesn't necessitate constant tweaking.

I thought you said as much when you said "guidance".

... and we're back to opinion.

...

You can't disagree on a topic on which science ventures no opinion.

In the sense that you can't disagree that garden gnomes are guiding evolution?

 

[Storm]

I thought you said as much when you said "guidance".

Not really. Take the deistic pov, that God set everything in place, and then walked away. That would be theistic evolution, in my book.

In the sense that you can't disagree that garden gnomes are guiding evolution?

Oh, for God's sake. I thought you above such snide comparisons.

 

[Yerda]

Not really. Take the deistic pov, that God set everything in place, and then walked away. That would be theistic evolution, in my book.

That is exactly the type of universe where I would find the term redundant.

Oh, for God's sake. I thought you above such snide comparisons.

First example that came to my head. I'm sorry if that offended you.

 

[Dunemeister]

That is exactly the type of universe where I would find the term redundant.

I think you're getting hung up on whether God is useful as a scientific hypothesis. I'm happy to maintain that he's not. God isn't part of the explanation why this thing turned into that in that period of geological time. God is taken to be that which makes the whole thing possible. As I said before, if evolution's true, it's a miracle.

 

[Storm]

That is exactly the type of universe where I would find the term redundant.

Is Dunemeister right? Do you think I'm saying God is scientific? 'Cause that was not my intent.

First example that came to my head. I'm sorry if that offended you.

Apology accepted.

 

[Draka]

I think the idea of "intervention" is off the mark. Why would there need to be any intervention for a deity presence that would already know how things would work? Once the laws of science determined and set in motion then our biological development would all play out how intended anyway. That's not to say that the Divine isn't an ever-present thing in our lives, but that our biology and scientific facts of the world are already firm and determined to play out a certain way. No "tweaking" needed. The only thing left is our spiritual development.

 

[Ciarin]

I happen to be a theist, and I put trust in the Evolution Theory. There is a bit of a difference though, I do not think the gods enacted evolution nor do I think they created the universe.

 

[painted wolf]

I'm also a theist who has no problem with the factual nature of Evolution.

I'd hate to have limit Creator to the writings of a few men who's words have been translated and retranslated and re-retranslated. Like a game of "phone".

wa:do

 

[Draka]

I'm also a theist who has no problem with the factual nature of Evolution.

I'd hate to have limit Creator to the writings of a few men who's words have been translated and retranslated and re-retranslated. Like a game of "phone".

wa:do

It does boggle my mind sometimes why people would feel that something as complex as the Divine would choose to take such an easy way out when it comes to creation.

 

[Yerda]

Once the laws of science determined and set in motion then our biological development would all play out how intended anyway.

I understand that.

Out of interest, does that mean you believe in a determined universe?

 

[Yerda]

Is Dunemeister right? Do you think I'm saying God is scientific? 'Cause that was not my intent.

No, not exactly.

 

[adimus]

Anyone still wanting to talk about this. This is my first post here. :shout

 

[painted wolf]

What about it do you want to discuss?

wa:do

 

[Valjean]

Hi adimus. I see you're new here. Welcome to RF.
I'm always open for a good discussion. Would you like to take the pro or con side?