Theists: Atheism is a Religion?

[Tiberius]

Theological belief, including the belief that gods do not exist. That, too, is a belief based on the proposition of the existence of gods.

Are you actually claiming that holding any belief about the existence or non-existence of God counts as religion? There is a biog difference between an belief about religion and a belief that is religion.

That's like saying that any writing about fairy tales is itself a fairy tale.

The ideology that humans possess the capacity to determine the existence of gods, if they were to exist, and that humans could prove that determination to others.

By this logic, any belief at all is dogmatic.

Leading to the position that if the existence of gods has not been proven the the atheist, to the atheist's satisfaction, that the only reasonable assumption to adopt is that gods do not exist.

This reasoning is very weak, of course, and most atheists know it, even though they continue to hold to it, which is why they are so reluctant to claim it, publicly, and instead try to deflect and subvert the conversation with statements about what they DON'T believe, and what they DON'T assert, rather than what they do believe.

Except I've yet to find any atheist who says, "Since the evidence you have provided for the existence of God doesn't satisfy me, YOU are forbidden from believing!"

Of course, if an atheist finds the evidence for God unconvincing, they aren't going to believe - it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion. You would not believe in anything if you found the evidence for it to be unconvincing.

But you seem to be pretending that atheists are going around demanding that believers stop believing as well: "I'm not convinced, so you aren't allowed to believe either!" That's a blatant strawman argument. The people who I have seen trying to push their beliefs onto others tend to be the religious people, not the atheists.

The ritual of coming to these kinds of websites to continually preach against the foolishness of all religions based on a belief in the existence of gods, all the while regurgitating the writings of their favorite atheist media mouthpieces. Not all atheists do this, of course. Because not all atheists are 'religious' about their atheism. But a few are, which is why, and how, atheism CAN be held and expressed 'religiously'. Which is the subject of this thread.

So now coming onto a website for the purpose of having a discussion about things makes those things religions?

I often post things on Facebook about how awesome I think Star Trek is - does that mean I follow the Church of Trek?

Of course, what you are doing is defining "religion" in such loose terms that you can include atheism in it. But that means you have to include other things that clearly aren't religions, thus showing the ludicrousness of your position.

So how about you just give a clear and unambiguous definition of what you think "religion" means, okay?

 

[JChnsc19]

Are you actually claiming that holding any belief about the existence or non-existence of God counts as religion? There is a biog difference between an belief about religion and a belief that is religion.

That's like saying that any writing about fairy tales is itself a fairy tale.



By this logic, any belief at all is dogmatic.



Except I've yet to find any atheist who says, "Since the evidence you have provided for the existence of God doesn't satisfy me, YOU are forbidden from believing!"

Of course, if an atheist finds the evidence for God unconvincing, they aren't going to believe - it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion. You would not believe in anything if you found the evidence for it to be unconvincing.

But you seem to be pretending that atheists are going around demanding that believers stop believing as well: "I'm not convinced, so you aren't allowed to believe either!" That's a blatant strawman argument. The people who I have seen trying to push their beliefs onto others tend to be the religious people, not the atheists.



So now coming onto a website for the purpose of having a discussion about things makes those things religions?

I often post things on Facebook about how awesome I think Star Trek is - does that mean I follow the Church of Trek?

Of course, what you are doing is defining "religion" in such loose terms that you can include atheism in it. But that means you have to include other things that clearly aren't religions, thus showing the ludicrousness of your position.

So how about you just give a clear and unambiguous definition of what you think "religion" means, okay?

Tiberius come on now, you know I go door to door asking “Have you quit believing in Jesus yet?”

 

[Tiberius]

Tiberius come on now, you know I go door to door asking “Have you quit believing in Jesus yet?”

That was you? Geez, sorry about my dog biting you in the butt!

 

[Desert Snake]

Atheism is a subset of certain christian denominations. It is linked to 'satanism', the esoteric branch of materialistic christianism.

 

[Tiberius]

Atheism is a subset of certain christian denominations. It is linked to 'satanism', the esoteric branch of materialistic christianism.

It seems that you don't know what atheism is, nor do you know what Satanism is either...

 

[Desert Snake]

It seems that you don't know what atheism is, nor do you know what Satanism is either...

Satanism is a philosophy. Theistic satanism is uncommon, and, of course isn't materialistic, so it's obvious that I'm referring to philosophical satanism.

 

[PureX]

Are you actually claiming that holding any belief about the existence or non-existence of God counts as religion? There is a biog difference between an belief about religion and a belief that is religion.

No, but it is a theological position. Theology is not religion, but religions are the practice of a theological position. Therefor it is possible to make a practice of atheism, and for it to be labeled a 'religion'.

 

[Tiberius]

Satanism is a philosophy. Theistic satanism is uncommon, and, of course isn't materialistic, so it's obvious that I'm referring to philosophical satanism.

"Why do Satanists worship The Devil?
We don’t. Satanists are atheists."

SOURCE​

In other words, the Church of Satan itself says Satanists are atheists. A long way from your claim that Satanism is, "the esoteric branch of materialistic christianism."

 

[Tiberius]

No, but it is a theological position. Theology is not religion, but religions are the practice of a theological position. Therefor it is possible to make a practice of atheism, and for it to be labeled a 'religion'.

Of course, you are defining "practice" as simply holding a position that is theological in nature. Way to redefine terms to suit your argument.

Holding an opinion about the validity of the arguments for a deity is NOT the same as being a member of a religion.

Of course, if you are claiming otherwise, if you are saying that an atheist needs to do MORE than simply hold the opinion that God does not exist in order for it to be labelled a religion, please tell me exactly what an atheist needs to do in order to be called a "religious atheist."

 

[JChnsc19]

Atheism is a subset of certain christian denominations. It is linked to 'satanism', the esoteric branch of materialistic christianism.

I’m the worst form of atheist cause I don’t believe in Satan either. Poor Satan...

 

[PureX]

Of course, you are defining "practice" as simply holding a position that is theological in nature.

No, I am referring to the application of a theological position in one's active life. Religions are collections of 'tools' (ideals, rituals, practices, objects, texts, etc.,) that people use to help them live according to their theological positions/beliefs. And since atheism is a theological position/belief, it is possible for an atheist to develop a set of such 'tools' intended to help him live accordingly, and it would not be unreasonable to call these tools and their usage, a 'religion'.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't also believe in the Easter Bunny and similar things like that.
Why?
Because the term Easter isn't even in the Bible.

Who cares if it's in the Bible? Do you believe in the Easter Bunny or not? And if you do not, are you then practicing a religion?

Googled the word religion and this came up:

/rəˈlijən/

noun

noun: religion

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

synonyms:

faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More

sect, cult, religious group, faith community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation

"the right to freedom of religion"

o a particular system of faith and worship.

plural noun: religions

"the world's great religions"

o a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

"consumerism is the new religion"


If Atheism is a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance, well betcha my golly wow, it must be a religion.

You know what they say...if it looks like a duck?

If you're going with that, then you're turning all kinds of non-religious things into religions.

It can make stamp collecting into a religion.
It can make skiing into a religion.
It can make reading into a religion.
It can make cooking into a religion.
It can make singing into a religion.


It would seem to make the word "religion" into something people don't actually mean when they use the word "religion," as well as making it rather meaningless.

 

[lukethethird]

No, but it is a theological position. Theology is not religion, but religions are the practice of a theological position. Therefor it is possible to make a practice of atheism, and for it to be labeled a 'religion'.

On what planet?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Atheism - Wikipedia bow!

Google religion:

re·li·gion
Dictionary result for religion
/rəˈlijən/
noun
noun: religion

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
   sect, cult, religious group, faith community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation
   "the right to freedom of religion"
   • a particular system of faith and worship.
     plural noun: religions
     "the world's great religions"
   • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
     "consumerism is the new religion"

Is atheism a pursuit? Yes or no?
Is atheism an interest? Yes or no?
Do you consider atheism the supreme importance? Yes or no?

Well, according to Google dictionary - consumerism is the new religion [maybe metaphoric in expression]

View attachment 27140

With regards to "theism" - it does not matter if these people worship the sun, the moon and the stars as gods. It does not matter if these people worship gods made of stone or gold or fine pieces of art. It doesn't really matter if they worship anybody - they are theists, that is for sure.

View attachment 27141

But the thing is - when the world is about to end or when life is snuffed out on these people, will they be saved on Judgement Day? What does the bible say?

Revelation 21:8 New International Version (NIV)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

So what is the right worship? What does the Bible say about this?

This is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 4:23-24 New International Version (NIV)
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

If there are true worshipers, surely then there are fake ones and those who refuse to believe, well we know their ultimate story don't we but I rather hear the Lord Jesus strike the gavel on it:

View attachment 27142

John 3:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Do you have anything to offer that isn't just spamming or proselytization?

 

[Desert Snake]

"Why do Satanists worship The Devil?
We don’t. Satanists are atheists."

SOURCE​

In other words, the Church of Satan itself says Satanists are atheists. A long way from your claim that Satanism is, "the esoteric branch of materialistic christianism."

It didn't derive from Judaism, presumably, I guess it might have. Not many other options, there. Using the name 'satan', isn't helping that argument, either.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I am referring to the application of a theological position in one's active life. Religions are collections of 'tools' (ideals, rituals, practices, objects, texts, etc.,) that people use to help them live according to their theological positions/beliefs. And since atheism is a theological position/belief, it is possible for an atheist to develop a set of such 'tools' intended to help him live accordingly, and it would not be unreasonable to call these tools and their usage, a 'religion'.

That's a pretty big departure from the generally accepted definition of "religion."

And it sounds rather circular too. Religions are things people use in order to be religious.

And it seems wrong anyway. As an atheist, I use science and reason to live my life. I never ask myself, "What does the Big Book or Atheism tell me about what foods I can eat, or how to wash myself?" I use other things like common sense, tools which even believers use.

But if you disagree, please give me a list of a few of these "tools" that an atheist might use to live an atheistic life. What ideals, rituals, practices, objects, texts, etc., would they use?

 

[Tiberius]

It didn't derive from Judaism, presumably, I guess it might have. Not many other options, there. Using the name 'satan', isn't helping that argument, either.

Irrelevant. Satanism is not derived from any form of Christianity. You said it was. Therefore, you are wrong.

 

[Desert Snake]

Irrelevant. Satanism is not derived from any form of Christianity. You said it was. Therefore, you are wrong.

'Satan'. 'Satanism'.

Why don't use you tell us why it's called satanism, then. Just really bad choice of description?

[Also, I said christianism.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Atheism - Wikipedia bow!

Google religion:

re·li·gion
Dictionary result for religion
/rəˈlijən/
noun
noun: religion

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
   sect, cult, religious group, faith community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation
   "the right to freedom of religion"
   • a particular system of faith and worship.
     plural noun: religions
     "the world's great religions"
   • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
     "consumerism is the new religion"

Is atheism a pursuit? Yes or no?
Is atheism an interest? Yes or no?
Do you consider atheism the supreme importance? Yes or no?

Well, according to Google dictionary - consumerism is the new religion [maybe metaphoric in expression]

View attachment 27140

With regards to "theism" - it does not matter if these people worship the sun, the moon and the stars as gods. It does not matter if these people worship gods made of stone or gold or fine pieces of art. It doesn't really matter if they worship anybody - they are theists, that is for sure.

View attachment 27141

But the thing is - when the world is about to end or when life is snuffed out on these people, will they be saved on Judgement Day? What does the bible say?

Revelation 21:8 New International Version (NIV)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

So what is the right worship? What does the Bible say about this?

This is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 4:23-24 New International Version (NIV)
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

If there are true worshipers, surely then there are fake ones and those who refuse to believe, well we know their ultimate story don't we but I rather hear the Lord Jesus strike the gavel on it:

View attachment 27142

John 3:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Clearly because of how the English language has evolved, "taking a dump" can be interpreted as a religious pursuit. But for those that want to remain intellectually honest, and actually know the difference between general intent and the specific intent of the definition, the absence of a belief in God, is not a belief in God by default. Except for fundamentalists, presuppositionalists, and those insecure with their own worldview. Is Atheism a pursuit? NO! How does one pursue Atheism(reification fallacy, false analogy, equivocation fallacy, and faulty inductive and deductive reasoning)? Is Atheism an interest? NO! It is the only rational position based on rational information(same fallacies). Do you consider Atheism the(?) supreme importance? NO!. This would require some method of worship, or some form of religiosity. The practices, rituals, ceremonies, divine artifacts, symbols and idols, are objectively designed to foster and maintain the belief in some kind of supernatural deity. None of these things exist in Atheism. It has nothing to do with the practices and rituals in religions. Atheism is simply a disbelief in a God(s) as worshipped in all Religions. Ask an Atheist WHY he/she disbelieves in the existence of God, and he/she will tell you, there is no practical, observable, logical, objective, provable, or reliable evidence to support a rational belief. If He/she will also ask you to demonstrate why your belief is right and the others are wrong, the answer will be avoided. Why can't believers posit any evidence to end Atheism(not science), instead of positing excuses why they can't?

Believers all fail to answer questions such as the above. So, they are forced to conflate Atheism and Theism as just another opposing religion. Simply because the word "God" is mentioned in both definitions. They go so far as saying that Atheists churches also exist, to advance their claim. Why do most believers justify the logic behind their beliefs, on an ancient compiled book of ancient verses and stories for children? They have no idea who the authors of the books in the Bible were, or that the Biblical(not historical) Christ?Jesus even existed. They have no idea of the nature of a God(s), or a Christ, or the divine nature of any Books, practices, or rituals. They can't even demonstrate if theirs is the right religion, and why all the others are false. Maybe you are correct. God seems to reward blind obedience, collectivism, ignorance, and blind faith, with a free pass into an imaginary afterlife. Evidence for this reward is only optional. Maybe this is all just an expression of our herding instincts, as part of the human condition. Or, maybe its something even deeper.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Well unbelievers will certainly not be alone. Their percentage will pale in comparison to the number of believers tormenting in the lake of burning sulfur. I suppose being conscious and aware of suffering, would be a big step-up from being clinically dead and rotting. But we have all experienced death for billions of years before life. So it is no stranger to me. No pearly gates, no 72 virgins promised by Allah(female suicide bombers), no eternal bliss, no being re-united with love ones, and no conscious sense of awareness. No NOTHING! Enjoy life now. Stop planning for an afterlife later. Surely you must instinctively know just how silly this sounds? Just because there is no absolute evidence to disprove any silly claims, doesn't mean we should abandon our common sense and intuition?


​

 

[Tiberius]

'Satan'. 'Satanism'.

Why don't use you tell us why it's called satanism, then. Just really bad choice of description?

[Also, I said christianism.

Not hard to do your own research...

Church of Satan History: Modern Prometheus | Church of Satan

By the way, why do you expect that I would be able to justify the choices of a group that I am not a part of?