Theists...

[camanintx]

Valid, to you, because it got Stalin what Stalin wanted. Citing what other people is a non sequitur (and some still regard him as a hero).

Which just goes to show that your opinion of the validity of Stalin's morality is as subjective as morality itself.

What's "supernatural"? What's "objective"?

Does circular thinking ever make you dizzy?

Only when I'm trying to follow you.

 

[matthew.william]

The concept of omniscience is exactly this. I see that bandied about quite a lot here.

I'm quite aware of the definition of omniscience, rojse, however, I fail to find anywhere in the Bible where it says that God knows all and everything, always has, and always will.

~matthew.william~

 

[Yerda]

Hi, Rolling Stone,

Just one question: what makes it bad if there's no God?

Your question is a bit vague. As a general rule though, the properties that make something 'bad' are unaffected by the presence or absence of God.

I imagine my values or ethics differ very little from yours.

 

[Fluffy]

Just one question: what makes it bad if there's no God?

Any hypothetical imperative cannot be morally binding because one can simply claim to be disinterested in the goal of that imperative.
For example:
1) A: If you think harming others is bad then you should not murder. B: I don't care whether I harm others or not and so I am not compelled not to murder.
2) A: If you think chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla then you should not buy vanilla ice cream. B: I don't care about buying better ice cream and so I am not compelled to not buy vanilla ice cream.
3) A: If you think God decides what is moral then you should not disobey his commandments. B: I don't care about whether God decides what is moral and so I am not compelled to not disobey his commandments.

Categorical imperatives on the other hand avoid this. They are ends in themselves. All other morality is arbitrary.

 

[crystalonyx]

Any hypothetical imperative cannot be morally binding because one can simply claim to be disinterested in the goal of that imperative.
For example:
1) A: If you think harming others is bad then you should not murder. B: I don't care whether I harm others or not and so I am not compelled not to murder.
2) A: If you think chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla then you should not buy vanilla ice cream. B: I don't care about buying better ice cream and so I am not compelled to not buy vanilla ice cream.
3) A: If you think God decides what is moral then you should not disobey his commandments. B: I don't care about whether God decides what is moral and so I am not compelled to not disobey his commandments.

Categorical imperatives on the other hand avoid this. They are ends in themselves. All other morality is arbitrary.

Any person can rationalize their actions, arbitrary or not, logic is usually not the basis of morals, or particularly actions.

 

[rojse]

That's the one.

I have seen the Incredibles. What did you want me to take from that movie, in the form of intellectual ideas and debate?

 

[rojse]

I'm quite aware of the definition of omniscience, rojse, however, I fail to find anywhere in the Bible where it says that God knows all and everything, always has, and always will.

~matthew.william~

I would not know whether this is contained in the Bible or not. Anyone?

Whatever the case, the Bible is not the only source of information about God. We have personal experience, divine revelation, the Apocryphic books, and so forth.

Secondly, the Bible is open to interpretation.

 

[matthew.william]

I would not know whether this is contained in the Bible or not. Anyone?

Whatever the case, the Bible is not the only source of information about God. We have personal experience, divine revelation, the Apocryphic books, and so forth.

Secondly, the Bible is open to interpretation.

Personal experience and divine revelation generally don't hold up well in a debate/discussion as it turns into a 'he said - she said' argument. As for the apocryphal books...Not too many Christians regard it as holy text as is origins are a bit sketchy, never claims to be the Word of God, etc.

Sure the Bible is open to interpretation, but where would you interpret the message that God is all-knowing and all-powerful?

My point is that if God never claimed to be, or was never said to be all-knowing/all-powerful, then how can we hold Him to those standards?

~matthew.william~

 

[logician]

Personal experience and divine revelation generally don't hold up well in a debate/discussion as it turns into a 'he said - she said' argument. As for the apocryphal books...Not too many Christians regard it as holy text as is origins are a bit sketchy, never claims to be the Word of God, etc.

Sure the Bible is open to interpretation, but where would you interpret the message that God is all-knowing and all-powerful?

My point is that if God never claimed to be, or was never said to be all-knowing/all-powerful, then how can we hold Him to those standards?

~matthew.william~

If a god is not omnipotent, omniscient, or benevolent, then what makes it worthy of worship? Even if one can rationalize that it is benevolent, what makes it worthy of worship, it's really nothing more than a highly intelligent alien.

 

[Autodidact]

Why do bad things happen to good people ? I think Rabbi Simmons perspective captures it
(Taken from here Why Bad Things Happen to Good People - Judaism )

GROUND RULE #3 - ETERNITY

The question of "why do bad things happen to good people" has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like this: A "good life" means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That's a good life. Anything else is "bad."

In a limited sense, that's true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.

From Judaism's perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we're going after is transcendence - the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to God, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with God. Who would be "luckier" in terms of eternal existence? All I'm trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.

For me, stephen, this is one of the values that makes me hate most theism so much. The idea that this life, the one we actually know about, is somehow illusory or unimportant, and that it is as nothing compared to this theoretical and highly unlikely life that is supposed to happen after we die, even though no one has ever talked to anyone who has died to find out, and despite all the evidence that death is just death, leads to a devaluation of human life and a justification for atrocities. It just makes me sick, it is so screwed up. I just want to shake people and yell, "This is the only life you get! Take good care of it! Enjoy it! Do all the good you can, because this is the only chance you get!" I think that's such a better, as well as more likely, view.

 

[Evolved1]

I'm just happy that since Kitzmiller V. Dover we haven't seen the creationists try to crowbar their bibles into the science classroom. Will they try again someday?

Evolved1

 

[matthew.william]

If a god is not omnipotent, omniscient, or benevolent, then what makes it worthy of worship? Even if one can rationalize that it is benevolent, what makes it worthy of worship, it's really nothing more than a highly intelligent alien.

Well that's entirely up to the individual, isn't it? A person can say a whole array of reasons to worship God.

Why would something only be worthy of worship if it's omnipotent/omniscient?

I personally worship God for His saving grace, and all the beauty He has created.

~matthew.william~

 

[Evolved1]

I like God when he does a bunch of smiting...

 

[Evolved1]

I recently heard Moses was hallucinating when he heard God and also when he saw the talking bush. Finally we have something that helps make some sense of those stories!

 

[matthew.william]

I recently heard Moses was hallucinating when he heard God and also when he saw the talking bush. Finally we have something that helps make some sense of those stories!

Heard from where?

~matthew.william~

 

[Evolved1]

Heard from where?

~matthew.william~

God told me. J/k... ABC News: Was Moses High on Psychedelic Drugs?

Evolved1