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Theory on Dhu'l-Qarnayn

The Qur'an contains a number of pre-Islamic legends. One such legend, which has above all been a source of ridicule, deals with a figure known as 'The Two-Horned One' (Dhu'l-Qarnayn) and is found in Q. 28:83-98. The consensus among Western academics is that Dhu'l-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great, but this brings up many questions. The Qur'an describes Alexander as a pious man who was favoured and granted power by God (28:83, 87-88) when we know that, far from being a devout monotheist, Alexander was a pagan. Moreover, Alexander is described as having found the place where the Sun sets, finding it setting on Earth in a "muddy spring" (Q. 28:86). Surely this all absurd, many would suggest.

At first sight, perhaps, and certainly to the modern onlooker. What should be noted is that this is a rather recent argument against Islam as far as I am aware. I do not know of any instances in which it was employed either in ancient Jewish or Christian polemics against Islam. The reason for this is simply that ancient Jews and Christians, who are presumably the ones who would have asked Muhammad about Alexander in Q. 28:83, would have seen nothing absurd in the Qur'anic narrative. The Alexander legends from which the story in the Qur'an is quite clearly derived are in fact Judaeo-Christian in origin. In these legends, just as in the Qur'an, there is no attempt at rigorous historiography; rather, the figure of Alexander is employed typologically as the image of the archetypal pious ruler. This was the very way in which ancient Jews and Christians saw Alexander. Therefore, in consideration of all of this, I am led to conclude that what is much more important than the issue of the identity of Dhu'l-Qarnayn or the historical details relating to Alexander is this motif which the Qur'an, in appropriating the Alexander legend, employs for its own purposes.

Likewise, the image of the Sun setting in a spring (Q. 28:86) is but another motif lifted from earlier Alexander legends, and it seems silly to believe that either of the author of the Syriac Alexander Romance or the author of the Qur'an believed that the Sun sets in a spring in the West yet rises somehow in the East, in another place entirely, especially in light of other Qur'anic descriptions of the Sun and the relevant elaborations of these in the authentic hadith literature (excluding of course the hadith in Abu Dawud, which is the only report in the entire corpus, as far as I know, which suggests a literal reading of Q. 28:86). Q. 28:86, 90 describes Alexander as discovering not just the place where the Sun sets but also the place where it rises, so this strikes one as a clear allusion to the vast extent of Alexander's travels and conquests.

As scholars van Donzel and Schmidt note, rather than merely 'plagiarizing,' the Qur'an makes a very sophisticated use of its source material in recasting the Alexander legend: "Arabic sabab, translated as 'way' in verses 85 and 89 literally means 'rope' but, Paret remarks, it is to be taken here metaphorically in the sense of 'expedient, resource.' It is a remarkable expression, which probably refers to the source through which the prophet Muhammad may have become acquainted with the story of Alexander. The Syriac version of the Alexander Romance and the Alexander Legend relate that Alexander travelled through deserts and rocky regions in a land where the sun does not shine until ‘the middle of the day.’ It was not from the position of the sun that Alexander knew that it was midday, but he had measured the way geometrically with the help of strings, from which he figured out the time of day" (Gog and Magog in Early Syriac and Islamic Sources [Brill, 2009], p. 59).

The Qur'an employs the poetic repetition of the term sabab and in fact repeats it three times, correspondent to the three divisions of the day, and on the second repetition, Alexander sees the Sun rising at midday (Q. 28:90), just as he does in the Alexander story recorded in the Babylonian Talmud. In this way (namely, in that it has a clear beginning, middle, and end), the Alexander narrative is one of the few actual stories in the Qur'an, and the usage of the word sabab serves, in effect, to tie the narrative together. Far, therefore, from revealing the author of the Qur'an to be a simpleton, when handled exegetically, the story of Dhu'l-Qarnayn seems at least to me to stand as a wonderful example of the text's literary brilliance.

Muslims and non-Muslims of RF. What do you think about this?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The story is found in chapter 18 (not 28), the Cave. It was most likely one the early Meccan Surahs.

Arab Muslim historian and hagiographer, Ibn Ishaq, reported in his traditional Muslim biography of Muhammad, Sirat Rasul Allah that the 18th surah of the Qur'an (which includes the story of Dhu l-Qarnayn) was revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad by God on account of some questions posed by rabbis residing in the city of Medina – the verse was revealed during the Meccan period of Muhammad's life. According to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad's tribe, the powerful Quraysh, were greatly concerned about their tribesman who had started claiming prophethood and wished to consult rabbis about the matter. The Quraysh sent two men to the rabbis of Medina, reasoning that they had superior knowledge of the scriptures and about the prophets of God. The two Quraysh men described their tribesman, Muhammad, to the rabbis.

The rabbis told the men to ask Muhammad three questions:

They [the rabbis] said, "Ask him about three things which we will tell you to ask, and if he answers them then he is a Prophet who has been sent; if he does not, then he is saying things that are not true, in which case how you will deal with him will be up to you. Ask him about some young men in ancient times, what was their story for theirs is a strange and wondrous tale. Ask him about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth. What was his story and ask him about the Ruh (soul or spirit) – what is it? If he tells you about these things, then he is a Prophet, so follow him, but if he does not tell you, then he is a man who is making things up, so deal with him as you see fit."


According to Ibn Ishaq, when Muhammad was informed of the three questions from the rabbis, he said that he would have the answers in the morning but did not say "if God wills it". For fifteen days, Muhammad awaited eagerly for the revelation. Muhammad did not answer the question until then. Doubt in Muhammad began to grow amongst the people of Mecca. Then, after fifteen days, Muhammad received the revelation of al-Kahf as an answer to the questions.

Al-Kahf - Wikipedia

Historicity of Dhul-Qarnayn wasn't so important as relaying traditions that the monotheists were well acquainted with. These traditions were already highly allegorized.

Alexander the Great in the Quran - Wikipedia

Muhammad simply revealed another reworked version that was consistent with His Theology. Many of the prophets of God including Moses (Much of Genesis for example) and Jesus relied on parables and allegorised stories to convey more profound spiritual truths for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
 

Wasp

Active Member
I think you should concentrate on that in the Qur'an which you can understand.

I told you you're on a straight path to Christianity. Here you are analysing the Qur'an like you would the Bible.
 
The story is found in chapter 18 (not 28), the Cave. It was most likely one the early Meccan Surahs.
My mistake. I wrote this when I didn't have internet and I didn't bother to double check the chapter and verse numbers.

I think you should concentrate on that in the Qur'an which you can understand.

I told you you're on a straight path to Christianity. Here you are analysing the Qur'an like you would the Bible.
How else should I analyse the Qur'an?
 

Wasp

Active Member
How else should I analyse the Qur'an?
What is your goal? You said earlier you consider converting to Islam. If that is the case you should learn to understand the Qur'an. You don't start that by trying to analyse it at all. You start by reading it.

If you have good translation of the meaning of the Qur'an with commentary, you should read it. If you find something in it that you can't understand, you should continue reading on. Not saying you can't do research. It's good to look up information, history, opinions of scholars etc. But don't stay there and don't think you can "make up your mind" about it when you haven't even started learning the Qur'an.

The main problem was that you don't recognize - or try to (since your faith is weak to say the least) recognize - the Qur'an as coming directly from God.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Qur'an contains a number of pre-Islamic legends. One such legend, which has above all been a source of ridicule, deals with a figure known as 'The Two-Horned One' (Dhu'l-Qarnayn) and is found in Q. 28:83-98. The consensus among Western academics is that Dhu'l-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great, but this brings up many questions. The Qur'an describes Alexander as a pious man who was favoured and granted power by God (28:83, 87-88) when we know that, far from being a devout monotheist, Alexander was a pagan. Moreover, Alexander is described as having found the place where the Sun sets, finding it setting on Earth in a "muddy spring" (Q. 28:86). Surely this all absurd, many would suggest.

At first sight, perhaps, and certainly to the modern onlooker. What should be noted is that this is a rather recent argument against Islam as far as I am aware. I do not know of any instances in which it was employed either in ancient Jewish or Christian polemics against Islam. The reason for this is simply that ancient Jews and Christians, who are presumably the ones who would have asked Muhammad about Alexander in Q. 28:83, would have seen nothing absurd in the Qur'anic narrative. The Alexander legends from which the story in the Qur'an is quite clearly derived are in fact Judaeo-Christian in origin. In these legends, just as in the Qur'an, there is no attempt at rigorous historiography; rather, the figure of Alexander is employed typologically as the image of the archetypal pious ruler. This was the very way in which ancient Jews and Christians saw Alexander. Therefore, in consideration of all of this, I am led to conclude that what is much more important than the issue of the identity of Dhu'l-Qarnayn or the historical details relating to Alexander is this motif which the Qur'an, in appropriating the Alexander legend, employs for its own purposes.

Likewise, the image of the Sun setting in a spring (Q. 28:86) is but another motif lifted from earlier Alexander legends, and it seems silly to believe that either of the author of the Syriac Alexander Romance or the author of the Qur'an believed that the Sun sets in a spring in the West yet rises somehow in the East, in another place entirely, especially in light of other Qur'anic descriptions of the Sun and the relevant elaborations of these in the authentic hadith literature (excluding of course the hadith in Abu Dawud, which is the only report in the entire corpus, as far as I know, which suggests a literal reading of Q. 28:86). Q. 28:86, 90 describes Alexander as discovering not just the place where the Sun sets but also the place where it rises, so this strikes one as a clear allusion to the vast extent of Alexander's travels and conquests.

As scholars van Donzel and Schmidt note, rather than merely 'plagiarizing,' the Qur'an makes a very sophisticated use of its source material in recasting the Alexander legend: "Arabic sabab, translated as 'way' in verses 85 and 89 literally means 'rope' but, Paret remarks, it is to be taken here metaphorically in the sense of 'expedient, resource.' It is a remarkable expression, which probably refers to the source through which the prophet Muhammad may have become acquainted with the story of Alexander. The Syriac version of the Alexander Romance and the Alexander Legend relate that Alexander travelled through deserts and rocky regions in a land where the sun does not shine until ‘the middle of the day.’ It was not from the position of the sun that Alexander knew that it was midday, but he had measured the way geometrically with the help of strings, from which he figured out the time of day" (Gog and Magog in Early Syriac and Islamic Sources [Brill, 2009], p. 59).

The Qur'an employs the poetic repetition of the term sabab and in fact repeats it three times, correspondent to the three divisions of the day, and on the second repetition, Alexander sees the Sun rising at midday (Q. 28:90), just as he does in the Alexander story recorded in the Babylonian Talmud. In this way (namely, in that it has a clear beginning, middle, and end), the Alexander narrative is one of the few actual stories in the Qur'an, and the usage of the word sabab serves, in effect, to tie the narrative together. Far, therefore, from revealing the author of the Qur'an to be a simpleton, when handled exegetically, the story of Dhu'l-Qarnayn seems at least to me to stand as a wonderful example of the text's literary brilliance.

Muslims and non-Muslims of RF. What do you think about this?
I think it’s a lot of words which boil down to
1. The Quran often is not clear where you would expect it to be.
2. If the story of Alexander the Great cannot be trusted for it’s historiography how can the story of Jesus or anyone else in the Quran be blindly trusted for their historiography?
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
The Qur'an contains a number of pre-Islamic legends. One such legend, which has above all been a source of ridicule, deals with a figure known as 'The Two-Horned One' (Dhu'l-Qarnayn) and is found in Q. 28:83-98. The consensus among Western academics is that Dhu'l-Qarnayn is Alexander the Great, but this brings up many questions. The Qur'an describes Alexander as a pious man who was favoured and granted power by God (28:83, 87-88) when we know that, far from being a devout monotheist, Alexander was a pagan. Moreover, Alexander is described as having found the place where the Sun sets, finding it setting on Earth in a "muddy spring" (Q. 28:86). Surely this all absurd, many would suggest.

At first sight, perhaps, and certainly to the modern onlooker. What should be noted is that this is a rather recent argument against Islam as far as I am aware. I do not know of any instances in which it was employed either in ancient Jewish or Christian polemics against Islam. The reason for this is simply that ancient Jews and Christians, who are presumably the ones who would have asked Muhammad about Alexander in Q. 28:83, would have seen nothing absurd in the Qur'anic narrative. The Alexander legends from which the story in the Qur'an is quite clearly derived are in fact Judaeo-Christian in origin. In these legends, just as in the Qur'an, there is no attempt at rigorous historiography; rather, the figure of Alexander is employed typologically as the image of the archetypal pious ruler. This was the very way in which ancient Jews and Christians saw Alexander. Therefore, in consideration of all of this, I am led to conclude that what is much more important than the issue of the identity of Dhu'l-Qarnayn or the historical details relating to Alexander is this motif which the Qur'an, in appropriating the Alexander legend, employs for its own purposes.

Likewise, the image of the Sun setting in a spring (Q. 28:86) is but another motif lifted from earlier Alexander legends, and it seems silly to believe that either of the author of the Syriac Alexander Romance or the author of the Qur'an believed that the Sun sets in a spring in the West yet rises somehow in the East, in another place entirely, especially in light of other Qur'anic descriptions of the Sun and the relevant elaborations of these in the authentic hadith literature (excluding of course the hadith in Abu Dawud, which is the only report in the entire corpus, as far as I know, which suggests a literal reading of Q. 28:86). Q. 28:86, 90 describes Alexander as discovering not just the place where the Sun sets but also the place where it rises, so this strikes one as a clear allusion to the vast extent of Alexander's travels and conquests.

As scholars van Donzel and Schmidt note, rather than merely 'plagiarizing,' the Qur'an makes a very sophisticated use of its source material in recasting the Alexander legend: "Arabic sabab, translated as 'way' in verses 85 and 89 literally means 'rope' but, Paret remarks, it is to be taken here metaphorically in the sense of 'expedient, resource.' It is a remarkable expression, which probably refers to the source through which the prophet Muhammad may have become acquainted with the story of Alexander. The Syriac version of the Alexander Romance and the Alexander Legend relate that Alexander travelled through deserts and rocky regions in a land where the sun does not shine until ‘the middle of the day.’ It was not from the position of the sun that Alexander knew that it was midday, but he had measured the way geometrically with the help of strings, from which he figured out the time of day" (Gog and Magog in Early Syriac and Islamic Sources [Brill, 2009], p. 59).

The Qur'an employs the poetic repetition of the term sabab and in fact repeats it three times, correspondent to the three divisions of the day, and on the second repetition, Alexander sees the Sun rising at midday (Q. 28:90), just as he does in the Alexander story recorded in the Babylonian Talmud. In this way (namely, in that it has a clear beginning, middle, and end), the Alexander narrative is one of the few actual stories in the Qur'an, and the usage of the word sabab serves, in effect, to tie the narrative together. Far, therefore, from revealing the author of the Qur'an to be a simpleton, when handled exegetically, the story of Dhu'l-Qarnayn seems at least to me to stand as a wonderful example of the text's literary brilliance.

Muslims and non-Muslims of RF. What do you think about this?

It became a trend in the west to find people who don’t know Arabic and have trivial knowledge about the Hadith trying to interpret the Quran and talk about the views of Islam depending on flawed English translations of the Quran and some Hadiths which were written more than one century after the death of prophet Muhammad (S), while ignoring the Hadith of Ahlulbayt, the family of the prophet.


I read part of this post, and here is some great faults on it:

1. Who told you that Dhul Qarnain is Alexander the great?!

2. Then who told you that based on the Arabic word “fee”, the verse means that the Sun will set inside the water. This is wrong translation and the Arabs understand the meaning of the verse, and it is available in the interpretation books.

3. Then if you are serious about finding the Islamic views regarding astrology, you need to research the whole related literature. And attached is a Hadith clearly mentioning that the earth looks from the space as Dirham coin! Just imagine that this was said before 1400 years. It is another miracle of Islam.

Note: The Hadith is posted separately in the next post.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
This is part of the previous post..
sun.png
 

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I imagine the question was questioning the reliability of your answer. As a, who has the knowledge to claim so.
I know many Muslims consider the identity of Dhu'l-Qarnayn as something only God knows, but clearly the people during the time of Muhammad knew who Dhu'l-Qarnayn was. What reason do we have to believe this knowledge was suddenly lost?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Muslims and non-Muslims of RF. What do you think about this?
I just don't think that the notion that the Qur'an is functional as scripture holds any water, regardless of the specifics of Dhu'l-Qarnayn.

That said, and sticking to that specific matter, I still think that it is only fair to notice that for all the long history of enormous investiments of time and attention given to the Qur'an - which is objectively not even all that big a text to begin with - somehow even matters such as this end up generating many words, but very little useful conclusions.

In this case, despite, as you point out, the clear implication that at least the identity of the person was well established by the time the Surah was written.

That is IMO typical of the Qur'an and its scholarship. It is literally not allowed to state outright that the text is pointless, useless, misleading or mistaken, despite fairly self-evident facts.

I sincerely do not understand why so many people nonetheless insist on putting so much effort into it.
 

Wasp

Active Member
I know many Muslims consider the identity of Dhu'l-Qarnayn as something only God knows, but clearly the people during the time of Muhammad knew who Dhu'l-Qarnayn was. What reason do we have to believe this knowledge was suddenly lost?
Why do you think they knew who he was?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Theory on Dhu'l-Qarnayn

Cyrus- the Great, was the Dhu'l-Qarnayn in ancient times and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1980 is in our times, please.

Regards
 
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