There are about 1000 gods. Is that evidence against God?

[night912]

What did he disagree with? Did he say "I don't believe you/" That is the sort of positive assertion that one needs to accept on face value unless a person can demonstrate otherwise by the claimants actions. And as I said I doubt if you could do that.

And I have not been following the debate if you just claim to believe that also has to be accepted on face value. But if you try to claim that your being is real then you do take on a burden of proof. Most believers tend to claim that their God is real. You may be an exception.

Just to clarify things, I said that I don't have the burden of proof for his strawman argument and explained why it was a strawman argument. But he kept repeating that that I have the burden of proof for that and never once addressed my explanation except for saying, things along the lines of, "just because you said it's a strawman argument doesn't mean that it is," without his explanation for why it wasn't. So ignored for the dishonesty.

 

[Nivek001]

Just to clarify things, I said that I don't have the burden of proof for his strawman argument and explained why it was a strawman argument. But he kept repeating that that I have the burden of proof for that and never once addressed my explanation except for saying, things along the lines of, "just because you said it's a strawman argument doesn't mean that it is," without his explanation for why it wasn't. So ignored for the dishonesty.

Just to clarify things, just because you say you don’t have the burden of proof does not mean necessarily you don’t have the burden of proof unless what you are claiming is simply your belief.

Just because you say I have been using a strawman argument does not prove I have been using a strawman argument. Also you saying that you explained why it was a strawman argument does not prove you have explained why your claim that I was using a strawman argument. If you really did explain why before you could have just as easily posted those explanations in your last post, but you didn’t do that. You just kept insisting that you did explain.

Unless you are proclaiming that your conclusions regarding my beliefs are based on your beliefs you do have the burden of proof BECAUSE otherwise your claims would be claims based on fact, and a fact is not really a fact unless there is irrefutable evidence for the whole world to see that proves it’s a fact.

Definition of fact


1a: something that has actual existence space exploration is now a fact
b: an actual occurrence prove the fact of damage
2: a piece of information presented as having objective reality These are the hard facts of the case.
3: the quality of being actual : ACTUALITYa question of fact hinges on evidence
4: a thing done: such as
a: CRIMEaccessory after the fact
barchaic : ACTION
cobsolete : FEAT
5archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING
in fact
: in truth He looks younger, but in fact, he is 60 years old.
Merriam Webster

How does one establish a fact?

Definition of proof
(Entry 1 of 3)

1a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2obsolete : EXPERIENCE
3: something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or triedespecially : unyielding hardness
5: evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal
6aplural proofs or proof : a copy (as of typeset text) made for examination or correction
b: a test impression of an engraving, etching, or lithograph
c: a coin that is struck from a highly polished die on a polished planchet, is not intended for circulation, and sometimes differs in metallic content from coins of identical design struck for circulation
d: a test photographic print made from a negative
7: a test applied to articles or substances to determine whether they are of standard or satisfactory quality
8a: the minimum alcoholic strength of proof spirit
b: strength with reference to the standard for proof spiritspecifically : alcoholic strength indicated by a number that is twice the percent by volume of alcohol present whiskey of 90 proof is 45 percent alcohol
Merriam Webster

What is your proof showing it’s a fact that I have been using a strawman argument? What is your proof showing it’s a fact that you have explained how what I posted is a strawman argument?

What is your proof showing it’s a fact that my posts are dishonest?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just to clarify things, I said that I don't have the burden of proof for his strawman argument and explained why it was a strawman argument. But he kept repeating that that I have the burden of proof for that and never once addressed my explanation except for saying, things along the lines of, "just because you said it's a strawman argument doesn't mean that it is," without his explanation for why it wasn't. So ignored for the dishonesty.

I could tell rather quickly that his side of the story did not add up. The ig list is sometimes the best option.

 

[Nivek001]

I could tell rather quickly that his side of the story did not add up. The ig list is sometimes the best option.

How could you tell it did not add up? Don’t hold back.

 

[Tiberius]

First of all, where are you getting that I said

That you said... what? Just repeating my entire post doesn't exactly narrow it down.

And your percentage of those who will see nothing in the challenge is what? Just what percentage are you figuring when you posted:

“And no reason at all for God to hold faith so high and evidence so low, especially when he gave us the ability to use reason, and when that ability to reason has shown us so many facts and truths about the universe.”

If it’s only some without any figure in mind, why are you so into the position that it’s unlikely that one can get positive answers from acting on faith, especially when you equate humanity in general has having reason?

What? I'm talking about two completely different things here.

On the one hand, I'm talking about the apparent contradiction in a God who gives us the ability to use reason and logic, and yet remains hidden from those tools.

On the other hand, I'm saying that many people who do what you suggest will get results other than the ones you are claiming.

How is it hypocritical of me to point out that one doesn’t have to take my word for it when I cannot provide proof for the world to see but that third party can try to act on faith for themselves?

It's hypocritical because when someone actually does it and gets results that indicate you are wrong, you dismiss them out of hand.

My point was that neither you or I can provide irrefutable evidence for the world to see, and yet you expect me to take your word as being of higher value than mine evidence-wise saying it’s hypocritical of me to consider otherwise? How does that make any sense?

If you promise a test will give certain results, yet you dismiss anyone who actually did the test and got different results, yes you are being hypocritical. Or would you dismiss the claims of anyone, no matter what results they got? Would you dismiss the claims of someone who claimed to get the results you predicted?

You STILL miss the point that unlike your position, which all you gave us just your word, I keep pointing out that one does not have to take my word for it but they can find out for themselves. Since you claim that you and so many others have acted on faith and asked God in prayer and got nothing out of it, you shouldn’t have a problem with others acting on faith and seeking for answers in prayer.

And you STILL miss the point is that I actually did what you suggested, I actually DID go and find out for myself, and what I found is that you are wrong!

However, you still insist on arguing my point claiming I am being hypocritical of dismissing your claim when I am actually putting your claim on the same level as my claim. Like I said your reading comprehension needs work. Just like you equating my point that I was not alone in my position in response to your argument about how I feel towards others who claim like you, because I am not alone in my position either, to mean that I was claiming proof that my position was correct. If I were saying that, why would I be declaring I believe instead of saying my position is fact?

But our claims are NOT on the same level. You are claiming, "Do X and you'll get Y. Go and put it to the test."

I am claiming, "I did X and I got Not-Y. In my experience, Nivek is wrong."

Truth is truth despite how many or how few accept that truth.

No one should accept something as truth if there's no evidence to back it up, and no one should accept anything as truth if there's evidence to show it is wrong.

 

[Nivek001]

That you said... what? Just repeating my entire post doesn't exactly narrow it down.



What? I'm talking about two completely different things here.

On the one hand, I'm talking about the apparent contradiction in a God who gives us the ability to use reason and logic, and yet remains hidden from those tools.

On the other hand, I'm saying that many people who do what you suggest will get results other than the ones you are claiming.



It's hypocritical because when someone actually does it and gets results that indicate you are wrong, you dismiss them out of hand.



If you promise a test will give certain results, yet you dismiss anyone who actually did the test and got different results, yes you are being hypocritical. Or would you dismiss the claims of anyone, no matter what results they got? Would you dismiss the claims of someone who claimed to get the results you predicted?



And you STILL miss the point is that I actually did what you suggested, I actually DID go and find out for myself, and what I found is that you are wrong!



But our claims are NOT on the same level. You are claiming, "Do X and you'll get Y. Go and put it to the test."

I am claiming, "I did X and I got Not-Y. In my experience, Nivek is wrong."



No one should accept something as truth if there's no evidence to back it up, and no one should accept anything as truth if there's evidence to show it is wrong.

Where did you get that I said that since I am not alone in my experience with acting on faith means that I was claiming that others who share my experiences prove that what I believe in is fact?

That doesn’t make any sense. You need to read again the point that what I claimed is based upon belief in what is true not on claiming fact. I was putting out there a response question to you about how you feel when there are others who share my experiences with acting on faith since you asked me about how I felt when there are others who claim to share what you claim.

HOW is it a contradiction that a God who would give us reason and logic would also wanted to test our reasoning and logic by also making us search for truths by relying on faith? Apparently it never came to your mind that if God gave you all the evidence there is of his divinity and you still defied him anyways that you would have been found to be all the more accountable for choosing those evil actions, so then your condemnation would be all the greater?

Knowledge = accountability

Whst is your point regarding that there will be other people who will also claim as you have claimed that they took the challenge and will not get positive results? How does that have any bearing on the validity of the belief that God will provide those positive results?

You didn’t prove that you really did that challenge as you claimed. What makes you think that anyone else who claimed the same as you would also prove their claims as well?


Just because you claim it’s a matter of when where it comes to the question of evidence surfacing that proves acting on faith will get negative results which you then claim I will dismiss that evidence does not prove that would ever happen.

First things first. Let’s see your so-called proof to the contrary of what I believe and then see what happens. Since neither you nor anyone else has presented any such evidence yet, your claim of hypocrisy regarding me is moot.

Also on that same note. No one has yet to present any proof for the whole world to see that affirms what I believe in either. Of course how could anybody prove there is a God who wants us to rely on faith?

You are putting out a scenario that isn’t possible because if there was such proof that there is a such a being then that would mean that such a being is not really a God because that being is not capable of withholding evidence from us mere mortals to begin with.

Also, if you point out that such a being wasn’t a God to begin with then comes to question HOW does whatever is your so-called proof ACTUALLY prove that the being in question neither is or ever was a God who would intentionally withhold evidence of their divinity from us?

You are dwelling on points that really go nowhere.

HOW does you saying you actually did the challenge of seeking for truth regarding God by relying on faith which includes prayer PROOF that you actually did do such a challenge?

You saying so doesn’t prove anything. Not only that you never even went into any details about your claimed experience. Just what did you do that would be regarded as acting on faith? What did you ask for specifically when you claimed to have prayed? What were you expecting as being an indication that you received an answer?

All you did basically so far is just say you have “been there done that”. That is nothing more than your word just like what I posted was nothing more than my word. We both claimed to have done X, which is seeking for answers by acting on faith and praying. That does put both of us on the same level. Also, as far a presented evidence goes we both received results as Y, which is there has been no evidence presented that establishes either claim as being fact.

What is different between us is at least when it comes to my word one does not have to just take my word for it unlike yourself who only insists that you have been there and done that and we should just accept it.

You saying your experience proves I am wrong does not show HOW your experience proves I am wrong.

It’s still your word vs. mine, but one doesn’t have to just take my word for it. One can try out seeking for answers regarding God by acting on faith by practicing and applying the teachings of the Gospel and even seeking for assurance of truth from God through prayer and see if doing those things will produce positive results as opposed to what you recommend which is just accept your claim because you said so.

 

[Muffled]

I haven't been able to find the death rate for your age.
Do you believe it's above 50%?

I believe it was just news that old people are more at risk from Covid-19 and they set it at age 65 but also people who have existing health problems. I haven't seen any statistics on death rates by age groups so the way the news is these days I can take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Muffled]

The OP's question is about a particular god.
What evidence do you have for that one?

I believe I have the Bible, personal experience and a cloud of witnesses.

 

[Muffled]

I have checked many of them out. They all seem equally man made. I've since stopped checking them out because my time is valuable, and nothing about them really stands out.

Why should one god be more worthy of my time than the others?

I believe Yahweh is not man made. The evidence is extensive.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I believe Yahweh is not man made. The evidence is extensive.

I'd be curious to see this extensive evidence!

What I'd like to know specifically is what evidence presented couldn't possibly be created by humans.

 

[Tiberius]

Where did you get that I said that since I am not alone in my experience with acting on faith means that I was claiming that others who share my experiences prove that what I believe in is fact?

That doesn’t make any sense. You need to read again the point that what I claimed is based upon belief in what is true not on claiming fact. I was putting out there a response question to you about how you feel when there are others who share my experiences with acting on faith since you asked me about how I felt when there are others who claim to share what you claim.

HOW is it a contradiction that a God who would give us reason and logic would also wanted to test our reasoning and logic by also making us search for truths by relying on faith? Apparently it never came to your mind that if God gave you all the evidence there is of his divinity and you still defied him anyways that you would have been found to be all the more accountable for choosing those evil actions, so then your condemnation would be all the greater?

Knowledge = accountability

Whst is your point regarding that there will be other people who will also claim as you have claimed that they took the challenge and will not get positive results? How does that have any bearing on the validity of the belief that God will provide those positive results?

You didn’t prove that you really did that challenge as you claimed. What makes you think that anyone else who claimed the same as you would also prove their claims as well?


Just because you claim it’s a matter of when where it comes to the question of evidence surfacing that proves acting on faith will get negative results which you then claim I will dismiss that evidence does not prove that would ever happen.

First things first. Let’s see your so-called proof to the contrary of what I believe and then see what happens. Since neither you nor anyone else has presented any such evidence yet, your claim of hypocrisy regarding me is moot.

Also on that same note. No one has yet to present any proof for the whole world to see that affirms what I believe in either. Of course how could anybody prove there is a God who wants us to rely on faith?

You are putting out a scenario that isn’t possible because if there was such proof that there is a such a being then that would mean that such a being is not really a God because that being is not capable of withholding evidence from us mere mortals to begin with.

Also, if you point out that such a being wasn’t a God to begin with then comes to question HOW does whatever is your so-called proof ACTUALLY prove that the being in question neither is or ever was a God who would intentionally withhold evidence of their divinity from us?

You are dwelling on points that really go nowhere.

HOW does you saying you actually did the challenge of seeking for truth regarding God by relying on faith which includes prayer PROOF that you actually did do such a challenge?

You saying so doesn’t prove anything. Not only that you never even went into any details about your claimed experience. Just what did you do that would be regarded as acting on faith? What did you ask for specifically when you claimed to have prayed? What were you expecting as being an indication that you received an answer?

All you did basically so far is just say you have “been there done that”. That is nothing more than your word just like what I posted was nothing more than my word. We both claimed to have done X, which is seeking for answers by acting on faith and praying. That does put both of us on the same level. Also, as far a presented evidence goes we both received results as Y, which is there has been no evidence presented that establishes either claim as being fact.

What is different between us is at least when it comes to my word one does not have to just take my word for it unlike yourself who only insists that you have been there and done that and we should just accept it.

You saying your experience proves I am wrong does not show HOW your experience proves I am wrong.

It’s still your word vs. mine, but one doesn’t have to just take my word for it. One can try out seeking for answers regarding God by acting on faith by practicing and applying the teachings of the Gospel and even seeking for assurance of truth from God through prayer and see if doing those things will produce positive results as opposed to what you recommend which is just accept your claim because you said so.

And the fact remains that if we have both "been there and done that" and gotten different results, then your method is hardly a reliable method of finding any kind of truth, is it?

 

[Tiberius]

I believe Yahweh is not man made. The evidence is extensive.

I'd be curious to see this extensive evidence!

What I'd like to know specifically is what evidence presented couldn't possibly be created by humans.

I'd also be very interested in seeing this evidence.

 

[Nivek001]

And the fact remains that if we have both "been there and done that" and gotten different results, then your method is hardly a reliable method of finding any kind of truth, is it?

And the fact remains that IF we both been this. And the fact remains that IF we both been that. And the fact remains that IF you been this and I been that. And the fact remains that IF you been that and I been this.. If, if, if, if, if, If only.

 

[Tiberius]

And the fact remains that IF we both been this. And the fact remains that IF we both been that. And the fact remains that IF you been this and I been that. And the fact remains that IF you been that and I been this.. If, if, if, if, if, If only.

You can use all the "ifs" you want. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of the world's population has tried something that is at least similar to what you've said, and there are countless different religious beliefs. If your proposed technique really was a valid way of finding truth, then why do we see that?

 

[Nivek001]

You can use all the "ifs" you want. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of the world's population has tried something that is at least similar to what you've said, and there are countless different religious beliefs. If your proposed technique really was a valid way of finding truth, then why do we see that?

How similar? Is it similar enough? What makes the cut off? Where do you get that they did make the cut off? What is their proof that they actually did as you claim they have claimed? LOL.

You haven’t proven that even you have taken a similar enough challenge and now you say that the majority of the world has done what you have claimed? LOL.

Your word isn’t proof that establishes fact just like my word isn’t proof that establishes fact. However, unlike you, who insists we should just take your word for it anyway, one doesn’t have to just take my word for it. One can try the challenge of acting on faith and seeking for assurance of truth about God and his Gospel through prayer and one can see for himself or herself if that is the case.

 

[Tiberius]

How similar? Is it similar enough? What makes the cut off? Where do you get that they did make the cut off? What is their proof that they actually did as you claim they have claimed? LOL.

You haven’t proven that even you have taken a similar enough challenge and now you say that the majority of the world has done what you have claimed? LOL.

Your word isn’t proof that establishes fact just like my word isn’t proof that establishes fact. However, unlike you, who insists we should just take your word for it anyway, one doesn’t have to just take my word for it. One can try the challenge of acting on faith and seeking for assurance of truth about God and his Gospel through prayer and one can see for himself or herself if that is the case.

Is that to be your whole argument? "If you try out what I say, you'll find God! Anyone who says they got a different result, well, where's the proof they actually did it?" You seem intent on simply dismissing anything that doesn't agree with you.

 

[Nivek001]

Is that to be your whole argument? "If you try out what I say, you'll find God! Anyone who says they got a different result, well, where's the proof they actually did it?" You seem intent on simply dismissing anything that doesn't agree with you.

You didn’t prove that either you nor anyone else did the same challenge. So now you try to simply dismiss what I posted not based on any actual evidence but because you don’t want to admit that you got nothing.

You are the one who is claiming that not only yourself but the majority of whole world has taken the very same challenge that I posted about not me. Unless you are simply declaring that it’s just your belief that the majority of the world has done what you said, the burden of proof is on you to establish that what it is you are claiming is proven fact.

So far, you haven’t made it clear that all of your comments here are simply based on your belief. Unlike myself what I have claimed here I have claimed to believe I received knowledge through acting on faith.

So, is what you have been claiming here regarding my beliefs based on fact or is it based on your belief? If it’s based on your belief then say so. If you don’t claim it’s based on your belief then prove it is based on fact.

Since, I’m not declaring what I posted to be proven fact, but still true nonetheless, I invited others who are interested to find out for themselves to take up the challenge of finding out if one can find assurance of the truth about God and his Gospel by acting on faith by trying out what is taught in the Gospel along with seeking for assurance if what is taught in the Gospel is true by asking God for that assurance with an open mind and then see for themselves if one can actually get that assurance if it is the truth or not.

Since you claimed that the majority of the world has already done that you shouldn’t have a problem if any third party does take up the challenge, so why are you still arguing with me about this?

 

[capumetu]

Atheists often cite the great abundance of gods.
In my opinion, this is not evidence against God.
I believe, it rather shows that God allows other beliefs to happen, for some time at least.
Here is a video by an atheist on this matter:

If you think that every single god deserves to be scrutinized equally... check out a thousand gods then.
This would be my suggestion.

No sir, I would say it is evidence of satan

 

[Tiberius]

You didn’t prove that either you nor anyone else did the same challenge. So now you try to simply dismiss what I posted not based on any actual evidence but because you don’t want to admit that you got nothing.

You are the one who is claiming that not only yourself but the majority of whole world has taken the very same challenge that I posted about not me. Unless you are simply declaring that it’s just your belief that the majority of the world has done what you said, the burden of proof is on you to establish that what it is you are claiming is proven fact.

So far, you haven’t made it clear that all of your comments here are simply based on your belief. Unlike myself what I have claimed here I have claimed to believe I received knowledge through acting on faith.

So, is what you have been claiming here regarding my beliefs based on fact or is it based on your belief? If it’s based on your belief then say so. If you don’t claim it’s based on your belief then prove it is based on fact.

Since, I’m not declaring what I posted to be proven fact, but still true nonetheless, I invited others who are interested to find out for themselves to take up the challenge of finding out if one can find assurance of the truth about God and his Gospel by acting on faith by trying out what is taught in the Gospel along with seeking for assurance if what is taught in the Gospel is true by asking God for that assurance with an open mind and then see for themselves if one can actually get that assurance if it is the truth or not.

Since you claimed that the majority of the world has already done that you shouldn’t have a problem if any third party does take up the challenge, so why are you still arguing with me about this?

I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that I need to prove that there are numerous different religious beliefs?

 

[Nivek001]

I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that I need to prove that there are numerous different religious beliefs?

No. You are claiming you will not receive assurance of truth affirming the one who I believe to be divine and that following his Gospel will not help one to gain eternal happiness.

Therefore if you claim it’s a fact that being I believe to be divine is not divine nor that his Gospel will help one to gain eternal happiness then you do have to prove it since a fact isn’t a fact unless it’s proven to be a fact.

Since the being I believe in to be not only divine but also since he claims he is the one God we should follow in order to gain the greatest happiness, if one receives assurance that his Gospel is true then that shows which God one should start trying to follow.