There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

[Brian2]

Really? Then why do modern scholars all seem to deny this? In fact what makes scholars reliable is because they can support their claims. Please do not abuse the work skeptic and try to make a derogative term. A skeptic follows the evidence. And from what I have seen the evidence is against Luke.

The modern scholars you are talking about go by the most compelling evidence I guess. They are not looking at things through the eyes of faith and I guess they do not accept Luke as a source of historical accuracy even if he has been shown to be very accurate historically in his writings.

 

[Kenny]

You are now using circular reasoning The author of Luke, no matter who he was, was not a historian. That is merely Christian apologetics. In fact as a supposed historian he has what appears to be a pretty big error in his Jesus story.

Notice again, purely subjective with the overused “apologietics.

And you are misinterpreting what the author of Luke wrote. He does not even claim to get his stories first hand. You read that wrong. He is claiming that the stories were passed down by eyewitnesses.

If you want to be exact… I would say it this way:
Luke 1:2
just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,

Like when a transcriber writes down what eyewitnesses are saying.

 

[Brian2]

No, Luke clearly has the birth in 6 CE. And no one is "presupposing' well the Christian apologists appear to be. You should not make such accusations without evidence. And why would Acts go past the time that the Temple was destroyed? It appears that at that time the days of the apostles were already over. Like others here you are making the mistake of treating apologists as historians and scholars. You should not believe people just because they say what you want them to say.

Luke claims that Herod was King of Judea in the days of Jesus birth.
Luke 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah,....................
Herod was not King of Judea in 6CE.

Acts should tell us about the fate of Peter and Paul and Jerusalem if it was written late in the first century, post 70AD.
John the apostle appears to have been alive towards the end of the first century and maybe also other apostles.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Protestants scorn the traditions of men which are taught as if they are from God.
We know that the gospels were written anonymously ...

Good.

... but we also realise that there is good reason that they were accepted as authentic and that it was known who wrote them in those days, and that is attested in the written church tradition ...

So Wikipedia suggests ...

An early Christian tradition deriving from Papias of Hierapolis (c.60–c.130 AD)[11] attributes authorship of the gospel to Mark, a companion and interpreter of Peter, but most scholars believe that it was written anonymously,[6][12] ... [source]​

Schoedel writes about Papias (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, v. 5, p. 140):

According to Irenaeus, our earliest witness, Papias was "a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, a man of primitive times," who wrote a volume in "five books" (haer. 5.33.4; quoted by Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.39.1). Eusebius already doubted the reality of a connection between Papias and the apostle John on the grounds that Papias himself in the preface to his book distinguished the apostle John from John the presbyter and seems to have had significant contact only with John the presbyter and a certain Aristion (Hist. Eccl. 3.39.3-7). Eusebius' skepticism was no doubt prompted by his distaste - perhaps a recently acquired distaste (Grant 1974) - for Papias' chiliasm and his feeling that such a theology qualified Papias for the distinction of being "a man of exceedingly small intelligence" [source]​

Udo Schnelle, in The History and Theology of The New Testament Writings, notes

The Papias tradition with its tracing of the Gospel of Mark only indirectly to Peter makes clear that the name of Mark as the author of the Gospel of Mark of the Gospel was firmly anchored in the tradition from the very beginning. ... But who was this Mark? One immediately thinks of the missionary John Mark firmly connected to the Pauline tradition, ... [source, pg. 199]​

While "it was known who wrote them in those days, and that is attested in the written church tradition," that in no way suggests

1. that this tradition was unambiguous,
2. that this tradition was accurate,
3. that you know who wrote gMk, or
4. that there is warrant to claim that the author was an eye witness.

 

[firedragon]

Here's what Abdul Baha' said...

34. “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”[20] The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty. The explanation of this matter is provided in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.”[21] It is therefore evident then that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is upon the heedless, the sinners, and the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.​

​

This is in Abdul Baha's commentary on Revelation 11 where he says that the "Two Witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali.

I'd love to hear what you think of his interpretation. Thanks.

Yep. That's what Baha said.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Luke has been called a good historian by other historians who have seen that his writing was precise and accurate historically. He has been considered to have been inaccurate by some but it has been shown that what were considered mistakes were actually correct. There remains the census at the time of Jesus which seems inaccurate, but which also has some evidence for it's truth. That is in the too hard basket at the moment but sceptics like to throw dirt as the accuracy of Luke and to drag it out at every opportunity, even though Luke has been found to be very accurate in other details.
Anything to discredit the New Testament record I guess.
30 years or so means that people were still around who could confirm or deny the gospel accounts.
But a faith is a faith and nothing is proven even if sceptics, who deny everything else in life, like to claim that it has been shown that the gospels were written late in the first century or even in the second century. I guess they have to do that sort of thing to justify their own sceptic faith, or lack of faith.

I have only heard Christians claiming that What makes you think that he was a historian? Paul only mentions him once in his letters and does not refer to him as anything more than a traveling companion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Notice again, purely subjective with the overused “apologietics.


If you want to be exact… I would say it this way:
Luke 1:2
just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,

Like when a transcriber writes down what eyewitnesses are saying.

No, actual observations. And yes, I can support my claim about apologists. I know that you do not reality at times, but it can be used to refute parts of the Bible.

I see that reading comprehension is still a problem for you. In no way does that indicate that he talked with eyewitnesses. And you shopped for a translation besides.

Luke 1:2 - Dedication to Theophilus

just as they were handed down to us by the initial eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

biblehub.com

Most are more like the NIV:
"just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

EDIT: Ooh! Bonus, the verse in the link does not support that either.

 

[Kenny]

No, actual observations. And yes, I can support my claim about apologists. I know that you do not reality at times, but it can be used to refute parts of the Bible.

Ok… another statement but no support… I’m use to it

I see that reading comprehension is still a problem for you. In no way does that indicate that he talked with eyewitnesses. And you shopped for a translation besides.

were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,

Apparently this is the reason you have so much problems

“delivered to us”… what was delivered and to whom? The word and to “us” - which includes Luke

“Who delivered it “ Eyewitnesses.

Luke 1:2 - Dedication to Theophilus

just as they were handed down to us by the initial eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

biblehub.com

Most are more like the NIV:
"just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

EDIT: Ooh! Bonus, the verse in the link does not support that either.

Study a little more and you will get there since the NIV doesn’t counter what we have said:

CSB just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us.
DARBY
as those who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word have delivered them to us,

and a host of others.

Additionally:

(2) Luke now provides the basis (καθώς, ‘according as’; Lk. 17x; Mt. 3x; Mk. 8x) for the reliability of the information on which the narrative about Jesus rests. It has been ‘handed down’ as tradition (παραδίδωμι; the use of the Classical second aorist form, παρέδοσαν, instead of the more common first aorist, παρέδωκαν, adds to the literary refinement of the sentence). The verb is a technical term for the handing down of material, whether orally or in writing, as authoritative teaching (Mk. 7:13; Acts 6:14; 1 Cor. 11:2, 23; 15:3; 2 Pet. 2:21; Jude 1:3; F. Büchsel, TDNT II, 169–173; O. Cullmann, The Early Church, 1956, 59–99; B. Gerhardsson, Memory and Manuscript, Uppsala, 1961; K. Wegenast, Das Verständnis der Tradition bei Paulus und in den Deuteropaulinen, Neukirchen, 1962). Those who handed this tradition down had been acquainted with the facts from the beginning of the ministry of Jesus (cf. Acts 1:22; 10:37). They were ‘eyewitnesses’ (αὐτόπτης**) who could not but speak of what they had seen and heard (Acts 4:20). They thus became ‘servants of the word’, a striking phrase conveying the thought of the centrality of the gospel message and of the way in which men are its servants; the use of ὑπηρέτης (4:20*; cf. Acts 26:16; 1 Cor. 4:1; ἡ διακονία τοῦ λόγου, Acts 6:4) emphasises that they ‘were not propagandists for their own views of what happened with Jesus but had unreservedly put their persons and work in the service of Jesus’ cause’ (K. H. Rengstorf, TDNT VIII, 543; cf. 530–544).


Marshall, I. H. (1978). The Gospel of Luke: a commentary on the Greek text (pp. 41–42). Paternoster Press.


Just saying.

 

[Eli G]

... “delivered to us”… what was delivered and to whom? The word and to “us” - which includes Luke

“Who delivered it “ Eyewitnesses.

Study a little more and you will get there:

CSB just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us.
DARBY
as those who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word have delivered them to us,

and a host of others.

Additionally:

(2) Luke now provides the basis (καθώς, ‘according as’; Lk. 17x; Mt. 3x; Mk. 8x) for the reliability of the information on which the narrative about Jesus rests. It has been ‘handed down’ as tradition (παραδίδωμι; the use of the Classical second aorist form, παρέδοσαν, instead of the more common first aorist, παρέδωκαν, adds to the literary refinement of the sentence). The verb is a technical term for the handing down of material, whether orally or in writing, as authoritative teaching (Mk. 7:13; Acts 6:14; 1 Cor. 11:2, 23; 15:3; 2 Pet. 2:21; Jude 1:3; F. Büchsel, TDNT II, 169–173; O. Cullmann, The Early Church, 1956, 59–99; B. Gerhardsson, Memory and Manuscript, Uppsala, 1961; K. Wegenast, Das Verständnis der Tradition bei Paulus und in den Deuteropaulinen, Neukirchen, 1962). Those who handed this tradition down had been acquainted with the facts from the beginning of the ministry of Jesus (cf. Acts 1:22; 10:37). They were ‘eyewitnesses’ (αὐτόπτης**) who could not but speak of what they had seen and heard (Acts 4:20). They thus became ‘servants of the word’, a striking phrase conveying the thought of the centrality of the gospel message and of the way in which men are its servants; the use of ὑπηρέτης (4:20*; cf. Acts 26:16; 1 Cor. 4:1; ἡ διακονία τοῦ λόγου, Acts 6:4) emphasises that they ‘were not propagandists for their own views of what happened with Jesus but had unreservedly put their persons and work in the service of Jesus’ cause’ (K. H. Rengstorf, TDNT VIII, 543; cf. 530–544).

Marshall, I. H. (1978). The Gospel of Luke: a commentary on the Greek text (pp. 41–42). Paternoster Press.


Just saying.

That paragraph from that commentary on Luke's Gospel explains something that very few Christians know about how the Christian congregation was founded and how it remained protected until shortly after John died. It was the eyewitnesses of the events related to Jesus who really kept it alive. They could transmit what they really experienced.

Not only non-believers of the biblical accounts cannot understand it; even many Christian believers also do not understand who was leading that worldwide congregation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and why.

The explanation of the Greek verb meaning "to hand down" is illuminating. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, fanciful stories in a religious book does not qualify as "proof'. Do you know what Romans did to the bodies of crucified people?

Probably not giving the body to his followers so they could put it in a tomb sealed by a boulder. Then placing two guards there to make sure his followers don't come back and steal the body, and then claim that he has risen from the dead.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yep. That's what Baha said.

So Abdul Baha' made those three "woes" Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Now Baha'is are stuck trying to make sense of the context of what happens during each of those woes.

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.​

​

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).​

​

12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​

​

All that is during the first woe? Now how are they going to make that about Muhammad? But that's just the start of their explaining... Here's everything that happens up to where it says that the second woe has past. The is all about the time of the Bab?

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.​

​

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.​

​

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.​

​

Rev 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”​

​

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”​

​

8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.”​

​

9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’[a]” 10 I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”​

​

Rev 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.​

​

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.​

​

11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.​

​

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.​

​

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

​

What's interesting is that the "Two Witnesses", Baha'is claim are Muhammad and Ali. So, during the time of the Bab, the second woe, the story goes back to the beginning of Islam?

Of course, details like that don't matter. In their mind, there must be a reasonable explanation, because Abdul Baha' said it, therefore it is true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Abdul Baha' made those three "woes" Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Now Baha'is are stuck trying to make sense of the context of what happens during each of those woes.

No CG, a Baha'i is not stuck on that in any way, shape or form, that would be you that is stuck on all that.

You also will have an issue if you ask a Muslim, as if they embrace tge explanations given by Abdul'baha, all of a sudden the Bible takes on a whole new meaning and relevance to Islam. Remember the Bible names Islam as the Beast. A faith of laws with no spirit that lasted to the year AH 1260. It would mean they too would have to embrace the Truth to the foundation of the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

So Abdul Baha' made those three "woes" Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Now Baha'is are stuck trying to make sense of the context of what happens during each of those woes.

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.​

​

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).​

​

12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​

​

All that is during the first woe? Now how are they going to make that about Muhammad? But that's just the start of their explaining... Here's everything that happens up to where it says that the second woe has past. The is all about the time of the Bab?

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.​

​

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.​

​

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.​

​

Rev 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”​

​

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”​

​

8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.”​

​

9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’[a]” 10 I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”​

​

Rev 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.​

​

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.​

​

11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.​

​

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.​

​

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

​

What's interesting is that the "Two Witnesses", Baha'is claim are Muhammad and Ali. So, during the time of the Bab, the second woe, the story goes back to the beginning of Islam?

Of course, details like that don't matter. In their mind, there must be a reasonable explanation, because Abdul Baha' said it, therefore it is true.

Abdul Baha said it. Is that it? Think about it. And what's your actual question brother?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What's interesting is that the "Two Witnesses", Baha'is claim are Muhammad and Ali. So, during the time of the Bab, the second woe, the story goes back to the beginning of Islam?

Of course, details like that don't matter. In their mind, there must be a reasonable explanation, because Abdul Baha' said it, therefore it is true.

The details matter and it has been explained why one should not read prophecy in a set lineal timeline, as prophecy is timeless, not written in a sequence like a script from a movie, but written from timeless vision of the future. I am personally not interested in unravelling all tge metephor and Illusion that is contained in Revelation, I am content that the timeline is given and some of the Metephor and Illusions have been five context by Abdul'baha.

The woes set a timeline and the events within each timeline cross over with each other. Between the first and 2nd woes the beast rises, 7 kingdoms with 10 rulers who set the foundation where the laws were practiced, just as they are in Judaism, yet the spirit of those laws are lost. Is lam destined to last to the year AH1260, or AD1844.

I and the vast majority of Baha'i I know did not find Baha'u'llah by prophecies fulfilled, as the best way is the proof of the Messengers, their own self, they gave their lives to bring people to God in Virtue and Morals.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok… another statement but no support… I’m use to it

Wow! How many times does a person have to explain to you that if you do not understand something you should ask questions. Right now your behavior is making you look like a five year old

Apparently this is the reason you have so much problems

“delivered to us”… what was delivered and to whom? The word and to “us” - which includes Luke

“Who delivered it “ Eyewitnesses.

And, yes, I dd support my claim. I showed that out of the countless examples you used one that seemed to support you. I provided a link with countless different verses. Talk about hypocrisy, you demand support and then ignore it when it is given to you.

I am ignoring the rest of this ignorant drivel until you do better yourself.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Probably not giving the body to his followers so they could put it in a tomb sealed by a boulder. Then placing two guards there to make sure his followers don't come back and steal the body, and then claim that he has risen from the dead.

Yes, that was definitely not an option. Crucifixion was an extremely serious punishment. It put dread into people, not only because it was a public spectacle and was extremely painful. But also because the bodies were left up to rot as an extremely serious warning to others. There is one case of a body being given back to someone, and there is no evidence that that body was not treated like all others. There were left up until they practically rotted off after feeding the birds and others. A spike though a foot bone was still attached to wood. That is a good sign that the body was there for a while. The spike not only took a good chunk of wood with it, the bone was still fused to the spike too. That does not happen in just a short time. I could probably dig up the story.

 

[Sumadji]

Probably not giving the body to his followers so they could put it in a tomb sealed by a boulder. Then placing two guards there to make sure his followers don't come back and steal the body, and then claim that he has risen from the dead.

Yes, that was definitely not an option. Crucifixion was an extremely serious punishment. It put dread into people, not only because it was a public spectacle and was extremely painful. But also because the bodies were left up to rot as an extremely serious warning to others. There is one case of a body being given back to someone, and there is no evidence that that body was not treated like all others. There were left up until they practically rotted off after feeding the birds and others. A spike though a foot bone was still attached to wood. That is a good sign that the body was there for a while. The spike not only took a good chunk of wood with it, the bone was still fused to the spike too. That does not happen in just a short time. I could probably dig up the story.

None of this is known for certain. The foot found with the nail through the heel had actually been cut off from the leg and then lain around buried for around two millennia, if I remember right. The nail had bent and curved in the wood, making it difficult to remove.

Nobody knows the exact details of Roman crucifixion. There’s nothing to say the same details always applied. The legs of the two thieves were broken to hasten death so that the bodies would not remain hanging on the crosses during the Passover feast.

In general the Romans tried to respect the religious customs of their provinces. Jesus was already dead, and a soldier pierced his side with a spear in order to make sure.

Joseph of Arimathea was an influential citizen who made a special request to the governor, Pilate. The Romans tried to avoid trouble with the fractious Jews at that time. Pilate had been reluctant to order the crucifixion. The body of Jesus was laid in a temporary tomb during the passover, when Jews were not permitted to touch the dead, in order to be properly embalmed and buried after the passover.

 

[Subduction Zone]

None of this is known for certain. The foot found with the nail through the heel had actually been cut off from the leg and then lain around buried for around two millennia, if I remember right.

Nobody knows the exact details of Roman crucifixion. There’s nothing to say the same details always applied. The legs of the two thieves were broken to hasten death so that the bodies would not remain hanging on the crosses during the Passover feast.

Jesus was already dead, and a soldier pierced his side with a spear in order to make sure.

Joseph of Arimathea was an influential citizen who made a special request to the governor, Pilate. In general the Romans tried to respect the religious customs of their provinces. The body of Jesus was laid in a temporary tomb during the passover, when Jews were not permitted to touch the dead, in order to be properly embalmed and buried after the passover.

Please, you are making the error of assuming that the Bible is accurate when no one can support doing that. As to crucifixion I will trust historians that study the people and languages of that time:

Why Romans Crucified People (The Story Beyond the Cross & Nails)

Roman crucifixion was more than a cross and nails story. Learn the process and methods the Romans deployed in crucifixion and why it was such an effective punishment.

ehrmanblog.org

Did Romans Allow Decent Burials for Crucified Criminals? | The Bart Ehrman Blog

In considering whether Jesus was buried on the day of his death, does it matter what Roman typical practices were? Or should these just be overlooked, not taken into consideration? In addition to the rather general considerations I have given in my previous post for calling into question the…

ehrmanblog.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Luke has been called a good historian by other historians who have seen that his writing was precise and accurate historically.

There are no modern historians that say Luke was a historian. In fact, the consensus is that the book of Luke actually has three sources, not one: the book of Mark, the Q source, and original Lukan material. There are Christian theologians who disagree with that, but a theologian is not a textual critic.

 

[Eli G]

A Jehovah's Witnesses' study manual on the book of Isaiah contains the following information about the different and contradictory opinions of different textual critics on that biblical book:

However, questions about the writership of the book of Isaiah did not stop there. The theory regarding a second Isaiah—or Deutero-Isaiah—gave birth to the notion that a third writer may have been involved. Then the book of Isaiah was dissected further, so that one scholar ascribes chapters 15 and 16 to an unknown prophet, while another questions the writing of chapters 23 to 27. Still another says that Isaiah could not have penned the words found in chapters 34 and 35. Why? Because the material closely resembles that found in chapters 40 to 66, which had already been credited to someone other than the eighth-century Isaiah! Bible commentator Charles C. Torrey succinctly summarizes the result of this reasoning process. “The once great 'Prophet of the Exile,'” he says, “has dwindled to a very small figure, and is all but buried in a mass of jumbled fragments.” However, not all scholars agree with such dissecting of the book of Isaiah. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102001021

I wonder how can we believe in people who, although they say they are qualified to tell the masses what to believe about books written more than 2 millennia ago, yet have such disparate theories?

Is it different with their opinion about the rest of biblical books?