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There are no space aliens
- Thread starter Desert Snake
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- space aliens
Papoon
Active Member
That assertion is as baseless as it is arrogant, unprovable, unnecessary and speciocentric.
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Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
The first chapter of Genesis claims God made the sun, moon and stars so we would know when the holy days are. I guess if we didn't need a sense of time nor a calendar, God could have created only an earth. So the Torah claims all this space with astral bodies in it, is some kind of clock. This attitude led to astrology and also astronomy (legend has it that Abraham created astronomy.)
This might sound farfetched, but even moderns when looking at a comet in the sky or a supernova can't help but feel it might be s sign.
Papoon
Active Member
True. Manipulation by priests over millenia has reduced people to infantilism.
Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
It is interesting that a sign was predicted to happen in the sky to mark the birth of Moshiach (Messiah.) And this very astronomical event happened last around about 4 B.C.E. coincidentally when Yeshua (Jesus) was born.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
As far as we can tell, this is the case. And it can be argued from the math as well as the observation. Not provable no!
But the more we learn, the more special we realize Earth is, and on that special planet, we alone among millions of species have this capacity.
If it's arrogance to take the evidence at face value, what is it to insist that we are not special despite the evidence? a chronic inferiority complex?
Papoon
Active Member
There is absolutely NO 'evidence' that only humans are conscious.
It is utterly baseless dogma.
It is baseless dogma which Christians and Muslims are compelled to believe. There is only circular logic and bias confirmation supporting this corrupt, ignorant and paranoid delusional fixation.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
name calling is the most graceless form of conceding defeat you know!
And likewise, believing in space aliens supports the atheist belief system, that humans are just an insignificant by-product of an arbitrary reality- so that argument works both ways.
In fact I've talked to several atheists who conceded that- us being alone, would give them pause for thought- so I understand it being an uncomfortable concept for atheists
But which does the actual evidence support? I'd be interested if you have any substantive reasoning for your belief in space aliens on it's own merits, rather than this passionate disdain of the alternative
Papoon
Active Member
"the alternative"
So it's either A or B ?
C,D,E,F.....XYZ....but those grasping after conceptual certainty prefer to reduce everything to A vs B.
Classic binary fixation.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
I thought not.
Papoon
Active Member
Actually your response didn't indicate any consideration of my post. Merely reactive.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
The analogy doesn't hold. The diversity of life on Earth and the range of conditions in which live is supported make the general case of "conditions which could support life" much more broad.
You're trying to compare the individuality of an individual human against a broader concept. It's not the same. Sure, I will concede that the Earth IS entirely unique AS AN INDIVIDUAL PLANET within the universe. There will be no other planet EXACTLY like it. And that's the only admission you'll get from me with your human to human comparison/analogy. It is asinine to extrapolate the concept of EXACT sameness to "there is no other planet with ANY attributes like the Earth". Because that is basically what you're doing.
Plus there is the obvious assumption you'e making that life on the Earth is the only possible way life can be sustained in the universe. Meaning the conditions have to be exactly like the Earth's in your estimation, to support life. The only thing you can really say with any sort of confidence is that the conditions would need to be nearly exactly the same as Earth to SUPPORT THE LIFE-FORMS OF EARTH - which is a sort of "duh" statement. You have no idea what other conditions might support other kinds of life. Even on this planet there are creatures that can "dry up" and basically die, and when water is re-added, they spring back. There's also the horseshoe crab - whose blood is blue because it is copper based - not iron based like the majority of complex life on our planet. Who knows the other possible configurations? I will tell you... no one.
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Reggie Miller
Well-Known Member
You mean to tell me that Star Trek was a lie? How dare they!
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Life cares, especially complex life. We have nearly 300 'worlds' right here in our solar system, representing a pretty broad sampler of what is likely to be out there. remember the universe all came from the same place, the elements provided in every system came from similar fusion reactors in stars based on the same universal physics.
Not only that- but right here on Earth, we have many environments that are just a little different- and so have never been able to host complex life, even when surrounded by it. far less generate it's own from scratch.
'Life Jim but not as we know it' is a great premise for writing SCI-FI plots, but in reality, the more we learn, the more we appreciate how narrow the parameters for life are
This is before we even touch on the further improbability of sentient life and civilization arising from complex life- even if there were other planets EXACTLY like Earth and we granted them all being seeded with life- we might expect to find dinosaurs at best on a million of them, before anything capable of advanced technology
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
There are pros and cons on each side, obviously, and we can go around in circles all we want stating the obvious. Until we've been out there, we haven't "been out there". And there is A CRAP TON of "out there" to be in. So all we have to base any conjecture (admittedly, conjecture is all I've got, and you have to admit that that is all you have also) on is what we can see from this meager little spec of dust called Earth.
Also - who said anything about sentient or even complex life supporting "advanced technology"? Oh wait.. right... the OP, who said "bacteria is off limits!!!11!!1!1!!" or some such nonsense. I'll tell you one thing, the moment we were to find the remains or fossil evidence of even something as simple as bacteria on a 100% extraterrestrial object would be the definitive moment things go from "conjecture" to something else entirely.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
I agree it's not something we can ever rule out definitively, it's a fascinating question though because either answer- alone or not, is profound.
So yes- I'm talking about 'space aliens' ET- advanced sentient life, as we'd generally define that- capable of long range radio communication as SETI might define it?
and so bacteria- I think stands a much better chance of being found elsewhere - though some would argue abiogenesis itself is a tall order. I'm on the fence on that
But I don't think we are entirely without basis for some mathematical calculations for ET
There seems to be a rough consensus of about 10^23 stars in the universe- or something in the order of 100s of billions of trillions in the observable universe, perhaps a few more zeros for the unobservable if we can count that as existing to any practical extent..
But that's just one side of the equation- on the other is all the compounding improbabilities of that star harboring a habitable planet. If you allow a generous 1 in 10 chance of a planet with a stable orbit in the habitable zone, and a 1 in 10 chance of an adequate magnetic field-
those compound each other into 1 in 100 odds- you've lost 2 of those 23 zeros already. You can get to nada this way very quickly with all the hurdles we are still learning of.
Yes, we'd all be stunned with finding a fossilized microbe on Mars now- when not so long ago many assumed aliens probably lived there, because we found people everywhere on Earth. i.e. there is a trend here, complex life appears ever more improbable the more we learn
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I have met space aliens. If anyone wants to prove the aliens I met do not exist, proceed.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
It seems you like you engage in all sorts of random speculation...
I've never discussed my political views on the forum...
what other non reality based speculation do you have?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Better yet, you could provide some evidence that that actually happened; you haven't even described how that happened, no reason to try to disprove an improbable statement.