There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

[Serenity7855]

Funny that the Gospels mention no such thing. All of the rather few witnesses they mention were already believers. Of course the Gospels also tell very different stories about who saw what when.

Try reading it again.

1 Corinthians 15:3-9

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

 

[Bunyip]

Try reading it again.

1 Corinthians 15:3-9

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Uh huh - and none of them recognised Jesus did they? What they saw was clearly a different person (not that you have any of those eye witness reports, not a single one has survived)

 

[Serenity7855]

Witnesses-R-us?

I would take the advice of your partner in crime and walk away. The deeper you dig the hole the harder it becomes to get out of it.

 

[Alt Thinker]

Try reading it again.

1 Corinthians 15:3-9

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Nonetheless the Gospels say nothing of Paul's 500 and disagree very significantly with each other on who saw what when. Just like I said. Do you contest those points?

 

[Serenity7855]

Nonetheless the Gospels say nothing of Paul's 500 and disagree very significantly with each other on who saw what when. Just like I said. Do you contest those points?

No two witness statements, of the same crime, are identical.

 

[Alt Thinker]

No two witness statements, of the same crime, are identical.

The Gospels do not merely differ, they contradict each other.

Matthew, who has Jesus spend a lot of time in Galilee, has the Apostles immediately go to Galilee because Jesus said to go there. They meet Jesus there.

Luke, who has Jesus rejected almost immediately and concentrates on Jerusalem, has the Apostles stay near Jerusalem. Jesus appears to them there for the first time then leads them to nearby Bethany and ascends into heaven from there.

John has the Apostles not go anywhere to begin with but hide out in Jerusalem where Jesus appears to them twice. Then they go to Galilee to go fishing (!) where Jesus appears to them for the third time (as is explicitly stated).

The original Mark has Jesus not appear to anyone. A later addition to Mark makes vague references to the other Gospels. Let’s face it, Mark’s Jesus is presented as an ‘action hero’ tangibly present in stories immersed in detail. Mark is never vague.

Several times in these stories Jesus is not even recognized by those who knew him. And James is never mentioned at all nor are Paul’s 500.

This is supposed to be convincing evidence?

The most convincing part is what they all agree on. The tomb was empty and a stranger said Jesus rose from the dead. Huh? The payoff that proves everything and nobody but nobody gets to see it? Instead we get contradictory stories. If you did not already believe would you believe it?

 

[McBell]

I would take the advice of your partner in crime and walk away. The deeper you dig the hole the harder it becomes to get out of it.

:biglaugh:

Now you are reduced to bold empty threats?

 

[Serenity7855]

The Gospels do not merely differ, they contradict each other.

Matthew, who has Jesus spend a lot of time in Galilee, has the Apostles immediately go to Galilee because Jesus said to go there. They meet Jesus there.

Luke, who has Jesus rejected almost immediately and concentrates on Jerusalem, has the Apostles stay near Jerusalem. Jesus appears to them there for the first time then leads them to nearby Bethany and ascends into heaven from there.

John has the Apostles not go anywhere to begin with but hide out in Jerusalem where Jesus appears to them twice. Then they go to Galilee to go fishing (!) where Jesus appears to them for the third time (as is explicitly stated).

The original Mark has Jesus not appear to anyone. A later addition to Mark makes vague references to the other Gospels. Let’s face it, Mark’s Jesus is presented as an ‘action hero’ tangibly present in stories immersed in detail. Mark is never vague.

Several times in these stories Jesus is not even recognized by those who knew him. And James is never mentioned at all nor are Paul’s 500.

This is supposed to be convincing evidence?

The most convincing part is what they all agree on. The tomb was empty and a stranger said Jesus rose from the dead. Huh? The payoff that proves everything and nobody but nobody gets to see it? Instead we get contradictory stories. If you did not already believe would you believe it?

You will have to do better then your own interpretation. Chapter and verse so that I can refute it for you.

 

[Alt Thinker]

You will have to do better then your own interpretation. Chapter and verse so that I can refute it for you.

And here I thought you knew the Gospels.

Yes, I can give you the whole story about how the Gospels differ in this respect and why, including the agendas the Gospel writers (esp Matthew and Luke) had in mind. But today is traveling day and I will not get to start until this evening. Lots of verses to locate and link to begin with.

Be back..

 

[Serenity7855]

And here I thought you knew the Gospels.

Oh, I know the Gospels, I just do not know your version of them, aside from the fact that I have never claimed to know them, that is your assessment, never-the-less, I am confident that what ever you pitch I can strike out of the ball park.

Yes, I can give you the whole story about how the Gospels differ in this respect and why, including the agendas the Gospel writers (esp Matthew and Luke) had in mind. But today is traveling day and I will not get to start until this evening. Lots of verses to locate and link to begin with.

Be back..

I look forward to it.

God has turned the tables on proud, arrogant, self-righteous man. When he proudly stands outside of the kingdom of God, and seeks to justify his sinfulness through evidence he thinks discredits the Bible, he doesn't realize that God has simply lowered the door of life, so that only those who are prepared to exercise faith, and bow in humility may enter.

It is interesting to note that the seeming contradictions in the four Gospels attest to the fact that there was no corroboration between the writers

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/contradictions-bible.html

 

[TheGunShoj]

So why read my post? There is no accounting for poor English.

To debate with you. If I disagree with most of what you say, then we have a lot to talk about!

In this case, Mestemia was saying that you weren't able to support your claim and your response was "I'm not looking for your support" it made no sense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

My bad.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Uh huh - and none of them recognised Jesus did they? What they saw was clearly a different person (not that you have any of those eye witness reports, not a single one has survived)

Five hundred people just watched me turn a bag of Skittles into a six pack of wine coolers.

See? You know it happened because I just told you 500 people witnessed it.

 

[Serenity7855]

To debate with you. If I disagree with most of what you say, then we have a lot to talk about!

In this case, Mestemia was saying that you weren't able to support your claim and your response was "I'm not looking for your support" it made no sense.

I know what he was "trying" to say, I was highlighting how poorly he was saying it. He said "Cannot even support your claims in the thread you allege it happened?" Now who is he referring to. He did not say "you cannot even support.." or "I cannot even support.. " or "Joe Blogs cannot even support..." just "cannot even support..." So, was he saying that he cannot support my claims or was he saying that I cannot support my claims. I am doing what he does all the time in his posts to me.

Now put them together as it could have read.

Mestemia said "I Cannot even support your claims in the thread you allege it happened I'm. Serenity7855 replied "I'm not looking for your support"

Does it make sense to you now?

 

[Serenity7855]

Hey Serenity. What religion do you claim?

I posted this to you recently. It is so easy to forget.

Religions, or faiths, are the biggest blight on understanding the true nature of God. I know I will get people's backs up, however, faiths are not necessary. They serve no purpose, other than to guess at the meaning of scriptures and claim to be the only true faith to follow. I do not like faiths. They are for weak people who cannot make their own decisions. They are elitist and self serving. Jesus told us exactly how to worship him.

Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

That is the true definition of a church. Religion is personal. It is not to be forced or sold to others. It is a personal relationship with you and your God, whoever He may be. I don't want to fall out with you or anyone else over my personal beliefs and you should feel the same about your non-belief. It has as much to do with me as mine has to do with you. This is the only type of venue that the two should meet and intertwine. Where else in your daily life would you want to talk about your non-belief. I rarely talk about my belief. We got it all wrong by allowing men to continue in their interpretation of Scripture for us instead of by us. I am not your every day Christian. I am a pragmatist, a bit of a literalist. Religions in heaven will not exist. I will, you will and so will everyone else. Do you think there will be Catholics, or Protestants, or methodists in heaven, no, of course not, they will all be Mormons.

 

[RitalinOhD]

I posted this to you recently. It is so easy to forget.

It is not to be forced or sold to others.

Then I have to ask why did you create this thread? Another contradiction.

Do you think there will be Catholics, or Protestants, or methodists in heaven, no, of course not, they will all be Mormons.

Huh? Was this a typo or do you intentionally say things that make no sense?

 

[joelr]

So ... if there is not god and there is no holy ghost then, ipso facto, the bible is just a pack of lies ... correct? So get down to brass tacks and provide some real evidence for your god and your ghost.

You are right, it is a pack of lies. Not that the mythology doesn't have it's important messages. But it's absurd that people still think it's actual history or prose and not poetry.

There are some compelling ideas that could suggest a God might exist, sure, but the idea that Christianity represents a literal version of Gods word is as likely as Hercules being the son of God.

 

[Katzpur]

Huh? Was this a typo or do you intentionally say things that make no sense?

It was neither a typo nor did it intentionally make no sense. It was sarcastic. (And not a good sarcastic either.)

 

[RitalinOhD]

It was neither a typo nor did it intentionally make no sense. It was sarcastic. (And not a good sarcastic either.)

This was an option I had considered. Wasn't that obvious to me tho.

 

[joelr]

The Jesus Papyrus, the lost tomb of Jesus Christ, An eye witness of Jesus. The 500 witnesses to the resurrection. 500 brethren, many still alive at the time Paul was writing (1 Corinthians 15:6); James the half-brother of Jesus, who had earlier been a skeptic of His messina. The Dead Sea Scrolls. The 12 disciples, the mother of Jesus and the Roman Centurions. And on, and on, and on.

Do you actually believe these facts to be true?
Because they are not.


The majority of biblical scholars put the Jesus Papyrus date at 200AD.

"Unreliable information is being circulated among the supporters of the King James Only view that the recently discovered Magdalen Papyrus, allegedly dated AD 60, proves that the King James Version is correct and that most modern versions are incorrect. This claim seems to be traced to a gross misinterpretation of a recent book by Matthew d’Ancona and Carsten Peter Thiede entitled Eyewitnesses to Jesus.[1] Such irresponsible information gives the false impression that there is an essentially complete manuscript of the Greek New Testament that dates from a period within the lifetime of the Apostles, and that this manuscript supports the Textus Receptus text tradition that underlies the King James Version. Such an impression is far from the truth."

JAMES D. PRICE, PH.D. - THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MAGDALEN PAPYRUS



There are no historical accounts of Jesus outside of the gospels. What few there were have been proven to be forgery.

The Jesus tomb, if you bothered to actually investigate, suggests that Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead and also had a son, was married, and many other contradictions to the NT.
Doesn't really matter because as Wiki says it"s:

"controversy within the archaeological and theological fields, as well as among linguistic and biblical scholars."

Meaning it's probably fraud.


The Dead Sea scrolls do not confirm the NT at all!? Why do people keep not understanding this?
As Elaine Pagels points out in The Lost Gospels, the scrolls show a different, more Gnostic version of Jesus. Even the church admits it raises more questions than it answers.
Is knowledge just completely out of style?

J.P. Holding was asked over and over on a forum to produce some sourced documents that show Jesus as part of history, outside of the gospels, there are none.


I thought telling falsehoods was something Christians tried not to do?