There is no evidence god does not exist

[JerryL]

The vast majority has been "pro-killing"?

Tell me what group or society was/is universally opposed to killing (other than a pacifistic, vegan society; of which a couple have existed).

"Rape" doesn't exist as a crime? Including the Bible?

... in many societies. Can you cite rape as a crime in the Bible? Every instance I am aware of in the BIble discussing rape only mentions it as removing the woman's responsability for having had sex. Give me one instance where the man has a different punishment for rape vs consentual sex.

If there was, no one would do it? Well how can you argue that? If it does not exist how do you know whether or not it would be followed?

It's definitional. To be universal, everyone must hold it... otherwise it's not universal.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's definitional. To be universal, everyone must hold it... otherwise it's not universal.

Good grief! :banghead3

 

[Sunstone]

...if you know any good books I'd appreciate it

For a lively introduction to evolutionary psychology and evolutionary biology, I recommend Alison Jolly's book, Lucy's Legacy: Sex and Intelligence in Human Evolution. It's well written and accessible even if you have no background in biology or the evolutionary sciences. You can check it out of the library before deciding whether you want to buy it. Jolly writes with humor and wit.

 

[JerryL]

Good grief! :banghead3

I don't understand your issue:

Universal:
1 : including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception
2 a : present or occurring everywhere b : existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions <universal cultural patterns>

I suppose you could be after definition 3:
3 a : embracing a major part or the greatest portion (as of mankind) <a universal state> <universal practices> b : comprehensively broad and versatile <a universal genius>

In which case you may indeed find "morals" that greater than 50% of the populus hold; at least in general terms... but I see no reason that this would meet the criteria neccessairiy to rule out social and biological cuses.

 

[spdoulos]

It shows...QUOTE]

Wow. That was a rather harsh statement for someone with "Peace" in their avatar. :sarcastic Anyway, it is the not the quantity of books, rather it is quality. I am sorry if I am not as fortunate as you.

Shalom,

 

[spdoulos]

Tell me what group or society was/is universally opposed to killing (other than a pacifistic, vegan society; of which a couple have existed).

... in many societies. Can you cite rape as a crime in the Bible? Every instance I am aware of in the BIble discussing rape only mentions it as removing the woman's responsability for having had sex. Give me one instance where the man has a different punishment for rape vs consentual sex.

It's definitional. To be universal, everyone must hold it... otherwise it's not universal.

Every major society out there is universally opposed to killing. Are you stating that because killing occurs than it is not a universal law? God gives us the universal moral code, it doesn't mean we are not free to break it. I am not arguing that we do not have a free will to choose not to obey the unversal law, clearly we do. What society is it not a crime to kill another person?

What societies? What Bible verses?

To be universal it must apply to everyone, it doesn't mean that everyone must obey it.

 

[spdoulos]

For a lively introduction to evolutionary psychology and evolutionary biology, I recommend Alison Jolly's book, Lucy's Legacy: Sex and Intelligence in Human Evolution. It's well written and accessible even if you have no background in biology or the evolutionary sciences. You can check it out of the library before deciding whether you want to buy it. Jolly writes with humor and wit.

Thank you Sunstone! As Deut. 10:19 kindly pointed out I am ignorant so perhaps studying books that support his view and reject mine will "enlighten" me. vbmenu_register("postmenu_272474", true);

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't understand your issue: ...

I think it silly to argue the issue on semantic grounds. There is wide-spread concurrence that, all things being equal, murder is immoral. Blather about whether this predisposition is universal and/or unconditional impresses me as sophomoric.

 

[Green Gaia]

Every major society out there is universally opposed to killing.

Do you support the killing of animals for meat and clothing? Do you support the death penalty? Do you support the war? Answer yes to any of these questions and you are not universally opposed to killing either, neither are most societies.

 

[JerryL]

Every major society out there is universally opposed to killing.

There is an entier industry of raising and killing livestock. Though some small groups like PETA object, there is no socitial objection.

Non-livestock animals (say "greyhounds") are also raised and killed, no major objections.

We also engage in warfare. We kill others. While some have questioned motives on given wars, again there is no society-wide protest to the genral concept. We go and kill "the enemy".

In many states there is also a death penalty; again we kill.

Would you like me to discuss this from a Biblical perspective?

Are you stating that because killing occurs than it is not a universal law? God gives us the universal moral code, it doesn't mean we are not free to break it.

So God has never killed, and has never commanded killing? Are you saying this with a straight face.

What societies? What Bible verses?

You need me to offer you Bible verses against illicit sex?

To be universal it must apply to everyone, it doesn't mean that everyone must obey it.

That doesn't flow from teh argument though. The first part of the argument is that universal laws are universally existant... the purpose of the argument is to prove God made universal laws.

What is the support for the morals being universal? It's obviously not that they are universally held (you've just agreed that they are not). Is your argument "God handed them down so they are universal"? Then your argument is entirely circular.

 

[spdoulos]

Do you support the killing of animals for meat and clothing? Do you support the death penalty? Do you support the war? Answer yes to any of these questions and you are not universally opposed to killing either, neither are most societies.

That is a good point Maize. Thank you. Allow me to clarify...by killing, I meant specifically murder.

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Source. www.dictionary.com

 

[JerryL]

I think it silly to argue the issue on semantic grounds. There is wide-spread concurrence that, all things being equal, murder is immoral. Blather about whether this predisposition is universal and/or unconditional impresses me as sophomoric.

I agree that a semantic argument is useless. I disagree that I'm having one. I personally find haughty rhetoric more than a little sophmoric and your response hypocritical on that ground.

"Killing" is not "Murder". "Murder" is definitionally wrong, and therefore a useless standard unless you can show universal acceptance of which homicides are murders and which are not.

Nor is "universal" a semantic argument. I'm not attempting to worry about what word he chose but rather what he ment. If there's a different intended definition of "universal", then I apologize for my mistake; but there are no other definitions from whcih I can see his argument flowing.

In what way is a moral detemined to be "universal"? What is the definition here?

 

[JerryL]

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

So an unlawful killing is unlawful? Why are the rules for "unlawful" different from place to place if the moral is "universal"?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So an unlawful killing is unlawful? Why are the rules for "unlawful" different from place to place if the moral is "universal"?

Sillier and sillier ...

 

[JerryL]

Sillier and sillier ...

(tries to think back)... "I know you are but what am I?"

 

[Green Gaia]

That is a good point Maize. Thank you. Allow me to clarify...by killing, I meant specifically murder.

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Source. www.dictionary.com

There are many people who believe killing animals for food and clothing is murder.

There are many people who believe the death penalty is murder.

There are many people who believe killing done in war is murder.

In some countries it is accepted that a man can kill a woman in his family if he believes she has somehow shamed the family. These are called "honor killings" and are an accepted part of that society, but we would call it murder.

Whether you or I agree with them or not does not matter. It shows that "murder" does not have an universally agreed upon definition, no matter what dictionary.com says.

 

[David M]

Universal Moral Law Exists:

We all agree that it is wrong to kill, rape, steal, cheat, et cetera.,

No, we don't all agree these are wrong. I only agree that one of these is morraly wrong under all circumstances and that is because the definition of the act can only entail harm to another without their consent.

 

[David M]

Crap, thread necromancy. Nvm.