"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[Desert Snake]

You are not buying which part?

The material I've read, it seems like /for the skeptical/, Jesus survived the ordeal on the cross. Historical notations from Josephus plus the 'miraculous' story in the NT would point a skeptic in this direction. But hey, you can believe whatever you want.

 

[CMike]

The material I've read, it seems like /for the skeptical/, Jesus survived the ordeal on the cross. Historical notations from Josephus plus the 'miraculous' story in the NT would point a skeptic in this direction. But hey, you can believe whatever you want.

No I don't. It seems that they got creative, and created the story around what transpired.

 

[CMike]

Actually, it's an allusion to Psalm 22. I've heard two explanations for this:

1. Apparently, during this period, the Psalms were known by their first line, not by numbers. The Jewish witnesses would have recognized "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as the title of the Psalm (kinda like if someone said "Amazing Grace!" today to refer to the hymn), and would have been reminded of the message of that Psalm: that God is with you even when things seem their darkest.

2. The Psalm describes events very much like the Gospel story (e.g. dying in suffering while people throw dice for one's clothes), presumably suggesting to the people assembled or a future reader that Psalm 22 "prophecied" Jesus.

1 sounds plausible-ish to me, but my money's on 2. I suspect that the phrase (and maybe the story about the soldiers gambling for Jesus' garments) came out of an attempt by the author to make a connection between Jesus and the Old Testament.

The true heroes of Judaism proclaimed from Deuterenomy "Hear O'Israel, the Lo-d Is our G-D, the Lo-rd is One"

This is how a great jew died.

When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.


When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.
Jesus "why have you forsaken me" shows that he died as a wuss.

He could have alluded to anything for example the prayer from Deuterenomy.

 

[Sleeppy]

The true heroes of Judaism proclaimed from Deuterenomy "Hear O'Israel, the Lo-d Is our G-D, the Lo-rd is One"

This is how a great jew died.

When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.


When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.
Jesus "why have you forsaken me" shows that he died as a wuss.

He could have alluded to anything for example the prayer from Deuterenomy.

Psalm 22
A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? My God, I call by day, and Thou answerest not, And by night, and there is no silence to me. And Thou [art] holy, Sitting -- the Praise of Israel. In Thee did our fathers trust -- they trusted, And Thou dost deliver them. Unto Thee they cried, and were delivered, In Thee they trusted, and were not ashamed. And I [am] a worm, and no man, A reproach of man, and despised of the people. All beholding me do mock at me, They make free with the lip -- shake the head. Roll unto God; He doth deliver him, He doth deliver him, for he delighted in him.'


How will you die? Will you be afforded a full sentence?

 

[CMike]

Actually, it's an allusion to Psalm 22. I've heard two explanations for this:

1. Apparently, during this period, the Psalms were known by their first line, not by numbers. The Jewish witnesses would have recognized "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as the title of the Psalm (kinda like if someone said "Amazing Grace!" today to refer to the hymn), and would have been reminded of the message of that Psalm: that God is with you even when things seem their darkest.

2. The Psalm describes events very much like the Gospel story (e.g. dying in suffering while people throw dice for one's clothes), presumably suggesting to the people assembled or a future reader that Psalm 22 "prophecied" Jesus.

1 sounds plausible-ish to me, but my money's on 2. I suspect that the phrase (and maybe the story about the soldiers gambling for Jesus' garments) came out of an attempt by the author to make a connection between Jesus and the Old Testament.

If you read Psalms 22 King David is asking for G-D to help Israel at it's time of distress.

However, jesus sacrificed himself, right?

So what is he complaining about?

He got what he wanted. Correct?

 

[CMike]

Psalm 22
A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? My God, I call by day, and Thou answerest not, And by night, and there is no silence to me. And Thou [art] holy, Sitting -- the Praise of Israel. In Thee did our fathers trust -- they trusted, And Thou dost deliver them. Unto Thee they cried, and were delivered, In Thee they trusted, and were not ashamed. And I [am] a worm, and no man, A reproach of man, and despised of the people. All beholding me do mock at me, They make free with the lip -- shake the head. Roll unto God; He doth deliver him, He doth deliver him, for he delighted in him.'


How will you die? Will you be afforded a full sentence?

Didn't Jesus' fans admire him when he come into Jerusalem. It's that what Palm Sunday is about?

It seems like Jesus had quite a fan club.

 

[Sleeppy]

Didn't Jesus' fans admire him when he come into Jerusalem. It's that what Palm Sunday is about?

It seems like Jesus had quite a fan club.

How many were there listening to Rabbi Akiva? Did all of those listeners avoid death, only to question his devotion to God?

 

[Desert Snake]

No I don't. It seems that they got creative, and created the story around what transpired.

You're just speculating. I'm actually making logical assumptions.

 

[CMike]

How many were there listening to Rabbi Akiva? Did all of those listeners avoid death, only to question his devotion to God?

His students were around him.

No one avoids death. We all die.


Rabbi Akiva showed his devotion to G-D by proclaiming his love for G-D by saying the "Hear O'Israel" prayer.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

His students were around him.

No one avoids death. We all die.


Rabbi Akiva showed his devotion to G-D by proclaiming his love for G-D by saying the "Hear O'Israel" prayer.

Jesus did not worship your god, so why would he show devotion to that monster as he was facing death.

 

[Sleeppy]

His students were around him.

No one avoids death. We all die.


Rabbi Akiva showed his devotion to G-D by proclaiming his love for G-D by saying the "Hear O'Israel" prayer.

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”


Rabbi Akiva waited to show the full extent of his devotion to God. His greatest fulfillment was not in his daily devotions to God, but rather in his final, most impactful example before men. So, Rabbi Akiva's devotion to God is not only in the recital of the prayer, but also to his students, and to his suffering, and to his death.


God had established David's throne forever.. So where is this throne? And who sits in it? You should show your devotion to God, by maintaining proper respect for David, his Psalm, and his students.

 

[CMike]

[/QUOTE]
“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”


Rabbi Akiva waited to show the full extent of his devotion to God. His greatest fulfillment was not in his daily devotions to God, but rather in his final, most impactful example before men. So, Rabbi Akiva's devotion to God is not only in the recital of the prayer, but also to his students, and to his suffering, and to his death. [/QUOTE]

That is true.




[/QUOTE]
God had established David's throne forever.. So where is this throne? And who sits in it? You should show your devotion to God, by maintaining proper respect for David, his Psalm, and his students. [/QUOTE]

The throne will be when the messiah comes.

As far as the rest, what?:help:

 

[Dubio]

Do you have any verses to back this up? The forgiveness idea?

The link below will bring you to a Judaism website and a long thread about animal sacrifice. You have to wade through some boring responses but it explains different ways to achieve forgiveness as described in the OT.

Animal Sacrifice in General Judaism Forum Forum

 

[Desert Snake]

^thanks

 

[BruceDLimber]

So sorry, but this entire thread title is simply ridiculous!

Forgiveness without bloodshed happens all the time, all over the world--and this should be obvious to everyone.

Now if you want to speak of it in a narrow theological sense, then that can be debated. But even for that, I'm hardly sure there's any such requirement!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[metis]

So sorry, but this entire thread title is simply ridiculous!

Forgiveness without bloodshed happens all the time, all over the world--and this should be obvious to everyone.

Now if you want to speak of it in a narrow theological sense, then that can be debated. But even for that, I'm hardly sure there's any such requirement!

Peace,

Bruce

Exactly, and well said.

 

[Desert Snake]

So sorry, but this entire thread title is simply ridiculous!

Forgiveness without bloodshed happens all the time, all over the world--and this should be obvious to everyone.

Now if you want to speak of it in a narrow theological sense, then that can be debated. But even for that, I'm hardly sure there's any such requirement!

Peace,

Bruce

I wasn't aware of anyone stating otherwise...
But, there is sacrifice in the bible, ...you can't ignore it.

 

[Dubio]

So sorry, but this entire thread title is simply ridiculous!

Forgiveness without bloodshed happens all the time, all over the world--and this should be obvious to everyone.

Now if you want to speak of it in a narrow theological sense, then that can be debated. But even for that, I'm hardly sure there's any such requirement!

Peace,

Bruce

The reason I brought this topic up is I'm tired of Conservative Christians saying to the effect Jesus died for your sins and if you reject Jesus and his sacrifice, you will go to hell.

 

[viole]

The reason I brought this topic up is I'm tired of Conservative Christians saying to the effect Jesus died for your sins and if you reject Jesus and his sacrifice, you will go to hell.

He did not die, really. And what sacrifice is that, if you know you are the son of God and will return soon? Not impressive. There are other humans who really sacrificed themselves without this sort of "divine insurance/delusion" of coming back as the masters of the Universe.

He just took the Passover weekend off for our sins, at best.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Desert Snake]

He did not die, really. And what sacrifice is that, if you know you are the son of God and return soon? Not impressive. There are other humans who really sacrificed themselves without this sort of "insurance".

He just took the Passover weekend off for our sins, at best.

Ciao

- viole

Yeah, I don't think he died. Whether you think it's resurrection or simply surviving the cross, the narrative points to Him surviving the cross.
So, doesn't effect anything anyways imo, Jesus isn't about the 'crucifixion'