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There is no free will in Islam

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
We're talking divine influence here, not the influence of gravity, or social influence. I'm pretty sure you know that, I just don't know if you're trying to fool me or yourself. A priest can tell you what to believe, but he can lie and you can choose whether to believe him or not. But God, being the embodiment of Truth, cannot lie; and being a divine creator, It has massive influence if you know It exists--much less if it's a pillar of cloud/fire that leads you around day and night and kills you if you gather sticks on the sabbath, or spill your seed on the ground, or touch the Arc etc.

How has anyone's knowledge anywhere ever caused something?

Give even one example please.

Yet, you will say God's knowledge has removed our free will?
How is this possible?

Did God say this? If so, where is it written? Please tell.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong.
If I am right, then I am right.
God is All-Knowing, Wise.

"We're talking divine influence here"
And so?
Is God a robot?
God has full knowledge.
So God knows what God will do before He does it.
So, therefore, God has no Free Will.
Is this what you think?
But how is it possible that Knowledge removes free agency?
This step in reasoning requires an explanation.
So? Please explain.
If you say, "Because God is Divine," then you are making a special exception.
If you have no explanation, then you didn't think think it through.
Knowledge increases our options. Lack of knowledge actually decreases our options.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know." - Aristotle
"The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know." - Albert Einstein
"The more knowledge you get, the more questions you ask. The smarter you get, the more you realize that everything can be possible." - Georges St-Pierre
Why do people say "the more I know, the less I understand"?

Shall we fathom the unfathomable depth of Knowledge that God has and say, "He had no choice?" Strange.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
How has anyone's knowledge anywhere ever caused something?

Give even one example please.

Fire and the wheel spring to mind. They have enabled many things.

Yet, you will say God's knowledge has removed our free will?
How is this possible?

I flat don't know how I can say it any simpler. If you KNOW God exists and is looking over your shoulder, so to speak, you say you're gonna act the same as if the idea of God never occurred to you? And if God gave us the gift of moral free will, that means God can't know what moral decisions we're gonna make until we choose to do them for ourselves. Think of it as a superpower which God gives us as a gift, a gift that benefits both us and God. And of course God could rescind, revoke, cancel, or repeal that gift at any time. If God were to know what we were going to decide, then the decision is already made before we "decide". That's a per-ordained decision.

Above all, why would God go through all this if It knew what we were gonna do? Why not just create everyone in heaven or hell according to God's foreknowledge.

Free will for sentient creatures is the sole reason for creating the natural, rational universe as a stage for exercising our free will. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly instead of this 13 billion year firewall. The divine effort required shows how important free will is.

Did God say this? If so, where is it written? Please tell.

If God revealed Itself to us in any way, that would impart knowledge of It's existence.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong.
If I am right, then I am right.
God is All-Knowing, Wise.

And if God is omnipotent, then It has the power to limit It's own power however It sees fit.

"We're talking divine influence here"
And so?
Is God a robot?
God has full knowledge.

And that omnipotence could not only be used to limit it's omnipotence, that would automatically limit It's omniscience.

So God knows what God will do before He does it.
So, therefore, God has no Free Will.

We are the only ones in the temporal universe affected by time. God only watches from It's "external"(?) timeless vantage point. God can't (mustn't) interact with this universe without destroying its natural, rational, non-supernatural qualities.

Knowledge increases our options. Lack of knowledge actually decreases our options.

Knowledge of the natural workings of the universe increases our knowledge, and options. If (since) God does not interact in the universe, lack of knowledge of It's existence does not affect our knowledge of the universe and therefore our options.

Shall we fathom the unfathomable depth of Knowledge that God has and say, "He had no choice?" Strange.

Just the opposite, God had the choice to create the universe to provide creatures with free will, or not to. But you will never make any sense of this until you question your upbringing and/or assumptions, and start from scratch--and I know from experience how scary and unsettling that is. This isn't about proving you or myself right or wrong, only about the pursuit of the Truth, which isn't a challenge at you, if you accept it for what it is.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Fire and the wheel spring to mind. They have enabled many things.

So they have actually enabled more choices... not decreased the possible choices.

If you KNOW God exists and is looking over your shoulder, so to speak, you say you're gonna act the same as if the idea of God never occurred to you?

Not at all. I agree that the idea that God is watching you affects you. I don't see how that removes free will. I don't see how that prevents you from making a choice.

If God were to know what we were going to decide, then the decision is already made before we "decide". That's a per-ordained decision.

Is it? If the physics professor say, "I am going to drop this book." He imparts to us and to himself the knowledge that he will drop the book. We are not surprised when he drops the book. Does our knowing that he would drop the book cause him to drop the book? Does his knowing that he would drop the book cause him to drop the book? No. No. No. Knowledge of what was going to happen didn't change that it was his choice to make. We are left wondering when did the professor decide to drop the book and that's a fascinating question but it doesn't remove Free Will.

Above all, why would God go through all this if It knew what we were gonna do? Why not just create everyone in heaven or hell according to God's foreknowledge.

So like, if you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby would you do it? We'll just assume no temporal paradox. You have a person, who you know will be responsible for terrible things and you have the opportunity to kill him and you are saying: "Yes, go kill him."
Or like, we have futuristic telepathic super system that can determine what crimes people will commit before they commit those crimes. So we can imprison them before they do commit the crimes, maybe even justify killing them in certain cases, and you are basically saying, "Yes, let's do it that way."

These are deep philosophical questions for us. These movies have been made because we seek to know the answers to these deep questions. But ultimately, I don't think there is any mystery here. You shouldn't go back in time to kill Hitler as a baby and you shouldn't imprison people for the crimes they haven't committed yet.

Why should God punish people who didn't do anything yet simply because he knew they would do bad things? Why should He reward people who didn't do anything good yet?

If God revealed Itself to us in any way, that would impart knowledge of It's existence.

How would God revealing Himself remove Free Will?

Knowledge of the natural workings of the universe increases our knowledge, and options. If (since) God does not interact in the universe, lack of knowledge of It's existence does not affect our knowledge of the universe and therefore our options.

Good point, I should've said non-decreasing and non-increasing respectively. However, my arguments remains essentially unchanged.

Does lack of knowledge of the existence of God decrease our options? It seems to me that lacking knowledge about God does limit your options. Simply imagining that God exists already provides you with an additional option (you could choose to pray to the God of your imagination). That's an option that didn't exist before and if you were to take away the idea that there is a God, then you would remove an option.

Just the opposite, God had the choice to create the universe to provide creatures with free will, or not to.

Another example of increased knowledge providing more options, not fewer options.

This isn't about proving you or myself right or wrong, only about the pursuit of the Truth, which isn't a challenge at you, if you accept it for what it is.

Agreed.:glomp:
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
So they have actually enabled more choices... not decreased the possible choices.

Both.


Not at all. I agree that the idea that God is watching you affects you. I don't see how that removes free will. I don't see how that prevents you from making a choice.

Remove is probably the wrong word, more like affect your free will choices. Say you want to murder your neighbor, rape his wife and steal his stuff. If, for all appearances, God doesn't exist or there's just no reasonable indication that It does, you decide to do what you want. But before you can, it's announced on the news that God exists and is watching each and every one of us, and in a list of things indicaes that what you are about to do is evil. So if, as you candidly admit, that knowing God is there affects us, people are less likely to do what they would have done otherwise.. That knowledge affects our moral choices.


Is it? If the physics professor say, "I am going to drop this book." He imparts to us and to himself the knowledge that he will drop the book. We are not surprised when he drops the book. Does our knowing that he would drop the book cause him to drop the book? Does his knowing that he would drop the book cause him to drop the book?

Bad analogy. You don't really know he will actually drop it. And we don't have the divine foreknowledge that you claim God has, in order to know what he will actually do, nor the power of divine judgement to influence the professor's actions--though dropping a book is not an example of either good nor evil.

So like, if you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby would you do it? We'll just assume no temporal paradox. You have a person, who you know will be responsible for terrible things and you have the opportunity to kill him and you are saying: "Yes, go kill him."
Or like, we have futuristic telepathic super system that can determine what crimes people will commit before they commit those crimes. So we can imprison them before they do commit the crimes, maybe even justify killing them in certain cases, and you are basically saying, "Yes, let's do it that way."

Neither of those scenarios addresses why God wouldn't just pre-distribute everyone to heaven or hell. And without foreknowledge, we don't know what anyone will do. Your question assumes we can prejudge anyone. And we can't go back in time, which is just another example of foreknowledge negating natural and moral law.

These are deep philosophical questions for us. These movies have been made because we seek to know the answers to these deep questions. But ultimately, I don't think there is any mystery here. You shouldn't go back in time to kill Hitler as a baby and you shouldn't imprison people for the crimes they haven't committed yet.

Those are works of fiction dealing with impossible situations. If you could go back, would Hitler no longer have free will? If so, I'd kill him. If not, he might make different choices. But in reality, neither is a possibility, and certainly not a cause for judging profound questions like free will.

Why should God punish people who didn't do anything yet simply because he knew they would do bad things? Why should He reward people who didn't do anything good yet?

Free will is a gift, but it's also a heavy responsibility.

How would God revealing Himself remove Free Will?

Go back to the top.

Does lack of knowledge of the existence of God decrease our options? It seems to me that lacking knowledge about God does limit your options. Simply imagining that God exists already provides you with an additional option (you could choose to pray to the God of your imagination). That's an option that didn't exist before and if you were to take away the idea that there is a God, then you would remove an option.

What, prayer? Praying to a God that doesn't exist or doesn't intervene, is not an option. They both result in the same non-reaction. Of course that doesn't keep a lot of people from "seeing" that God answered their prayers--never mind all the times they weren't. Neither does it stop people from working to fulfill their prayers saying that "God helps those who helps themselves" (GAH, one of the worst religious rationalizations ever).

In the movie Rambo (the last in the series, and the only one I liked, a lot), one of the mercenaries on a rescue mission, says to the leader of the missionaries they'd just rescued, "God didn't save you, I did!"
Amen.

Another example of increased knowledge providing more options, not fewer options.

I guess, if you want to put it that way. All of our moral optional choices are under the free will column. And if we have knowledge that God exists, many will make different choices, and none, including God, will have certain knowledge of what they would have actually chosen if they had unfettered free will.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Yw, sorry I just realized that my post is a bit too long. I tried to summarize it, Muslim theologians wrote quite a few books on taqdeer.

Like I said in my previous post, you are playing out an action that you have chosen that is known by God. He is all knowing ,he would know everything that happens before they happen.God doesn't need to wait until you do something for Him to know about it.


I see. But again since we are talking about action have I not done my action already according to Taqdeer?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I know the apple will fall from the tree. How have I intervened?
Knowledge =/= Intervention



Do you change the outcomes of the football games by watching them? Please explain how you do this. It is a very useful ability to have.

The football analogy was just as it was, an analogy...I was attempting to explain how God's knowledge can be explained. God (according to theological premise) see all actions simultaneously.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

Without getting off into all the other details, I disagree with your statement that free will requires a rational mind. People with mental disabilities can also make decisions.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I see. But again since we are talking about action have I not done my action already according to Taqdeer?

It's an interesting idea. I think you mean that you've already made your decisions, yes? Not your "actions".

Not really. I am not free to move across the DMZ from south to north korea without being assaulted by assault rifles.
Where's your speed of light cape? And your teleportation helm? I guess this world is just too limited for free will to exist.

You're still free if you chose to die, no one can stop you if you wanted to
jump from a high building.

Precisely. Some people don't believe they have free will unless it is "unfettered". I don't know what they mean.

if we have knowledge that God exists, many will make different choices, and none, including God, will have certain knowledge of what they would have actually chosen if they had unfettered free will.

So... no free will unless you are omnipotent?:rolleyes:
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
It's an interesting idea. I think you mean that you've already made your decisions, yes? Not your "actions".


Where's your speed of light cape? And your teleportation helm? I guess this world is just too limited for free will to exist.



Precisely. Some people don't believe they have free will unless it is "unfettered". I don't know what they mean.



So... no free will unless you are omnipotent?:rolleyes:
You're being deliberately obtuse.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
You're being deliberately obtuse.
Apologies. I don't understand the relevance of "unfettered free will". I really don't understand what you mean. Which came first: the chicken or the egg? Which came first: God's influence or the knowledge of the existence of God?

You say the knowledge of the existence of God will cause some to act differently, but if that knowledge comes to them, then it means God was always there to begin with. So it means that His influence is not something new that disrupts them.

If you say that their choices were a factor in them acquiring the knowledge of God, then it was already their free will in action that fettered them.

So, I'm sorry that I'm being obtuse. I just don't understand.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Apologies. I don't understand the relevance of "unfettered free will". I really don't understand what you mean. Which came first: the chicken or the egg? Which came first: God's influence or the knowledge of the existence of God?

There is no knowledge of the existence of God--unless you have evidence I'm not aware of, that isn't pure hearsay.

You say the knowledge of the existence of God will cause some to act differently, but if that knowledge comes to them, then it means God was always there to begin with. So it means that His influence is not something new that disrupts them.[

If you say that their choices were a factor in them acquiring the knowledge of God, then it was already their free will in action that fettered them.

Huh?

So, I'm sorry that I'm being obtuse. I just don't understand.

Being obtuse means you do understand but refuse to admit it, and are not really sorry.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
There is no knowledge of the existence of God--unless you have evidence I'm not aware of, that isn't pure hearsay.

If there is no knowledge of God, then there is no problem. Am I missing something?

If they have knowledge of God, then God was always there.
If they don't have knowledge of God, then it doesn't matter.

If they simply imagine that God is there, then they may take actions as if He was there. If it's true that He is there, then He was always there. If it's not true that He is there, then there is no thread to discuss. We started with the assumption that He is there... (btw, that's not a disproof of God).

If they imagine a god is there, but the god that they imagine is not the actual God that is there, then they gain the option of praying to the god that is not there, but the God that is there is still always there to begin with.

So the idea that God's influence only exists if you think God is there is false.
And the idea that God's influence removes Free Will is also false.

Being obtuse means you do understand but refuse to admit it, and are not really sorry.

You introduced a notion of "unfettered Free Will" (vs fettered Free Will, I suppose) that, to me, doesn't make any sense. So, yes, I poked fun at this notion. I think it's a funny notion. It was unprofessional of me to poke fun. I still don't understand your notion of "unfettered free will". I get that someone can be put into prison and restricted in terms of his physical movements, but I don't understand how a person can be restricted in the metaphysical sense. Free Will is metaphysical. Do you disagree?
 

NayaVeda

Member
Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?


Is that why Iblis didn't bow down before Adam? Allah had pre-ordained him not to bow down before anyone but him?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
If there is no knowledge of God, then there is no problem. Am I missing something?

No, it would appear that we're all simpatico.

If they have knowledge of God, then God was always there.
If they don't have knowledge of God, then it doesn't matter.

If they simply imagine that God is there, then they may take actions as if He was there. If it's true that He is there, then He was always there. If it's not true that He is there, then there is no thread to discuss. We started with the assumption that He is there... (btw, that's not a disproof of God).

If they imagine a god is there, but the god that they imagine is not the actual God that is there, then they gain the option of praying to the god that is not there, but the God that is there is still always there to begin with.

So the idea that God's influence only exists if you think God is there is false.
And the idea that God's influence removes Free Will is also false.



You introduced a notion of "unfettered Free Will" (vs fettered Free Will, I suppose) that, to me, doesn't make any sense. So, yes, I poked fun at this notion. I think it's a funny notion. It was unprofessional of me to poke fun. I still don't understand your notion of "unfettered free will". I get that someone can be put into prison and restricted in terms of his physical movements, but I don't understand how a person can be restricted in the metaphysical sense. Free Will is metaphysical. Do you disagree?[/QUOTE]
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Is that why Iblis didn't bow down before Adam? Allah had pre-ordained him not to bow down before anyone but him?

In Islam Djinns and Humans are afforded freewill but not angels...However this is the enigma.....According to the Qur'an, Allah "hardened the hearts" of people to cause disbelief. It can be said of Ibliss...
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
There is still the intellect that restrains me (my will to live hence which dictates my choices)....

Of course we don't have 100% free will, you don't choose where to born
and who'll be your mother, you can't stop your heart from pumping ..etc but our choices
are our deeds, the test is about our acts in which we have the complete free will.
 
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