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There is no G-d outside of you

Onkara

Well-Known Member
I came across an article by a Rabbi which made my ears perk up and wonder what your opinion is. If there is nothing outside of us and G-d is unlimited then everything must be G-d? Do you agree and if not then why not?

The Rabbi writes: "G-d can't be defined, because by defining Him you are saying that there's something He can't be; but this could not be true, because G-d is unlimited.

That's why there can be only one G-d. Because if you don't have a definition, then there is nothing outside of you. There can be no "other".

G-d has no borders, so how can there be more than one god? Where would one god end and one begin if there is no dividing line between them?
"

link to source:
Is There a Logical Proof that there's only One G-d? - G
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
I came across an article by a Rabbi which made my ears perk up and wonder what your opinion is. If there is nothing outside of us and G-d is unlimited then everything must be G-d? Do you agree and if not then why not?

The Rabbi writes: "G-d can't be defined, because by defining Him you are saying that there's something He can't be; but this could not be true, because G-d is unlimited.

That's why there can be only one G-d. Because if you don't have a definition, then there is nothing outside of you. There can be no "other".

G-d has no borders, so how can there be more than one god? Where would one god end and one begin if there is no dividing line between them?
"

link to source:
Is There a Logical Proof that there's only One G-d? - G

There is a good reason that you found this on a Chabad website.

The theology invoked in this piece is that of the Alter Rebbe, the founding Rebbe of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, who also began the Chabad movement.

The Alter Rebbe's theology was deeply mystical. He was greatly influenced-- perhaps more so than any other of the Hasidic masters-- by the Kabbalah of the ARI z"l (Rabbi Yitzhak Luria). The Alter Rebbe took that very austere and rather panentheistic theology to the next level. He is famous for summarizing it by saying Alles ist Gott un Gott is Alles ("Everything is God, and God is Everything"), by which he meant, essentially, monism. He taught that our individuality, our reality, all of Creation, is, ultimately, illusory: that literally, there is nothing but God, and the task of our lives is to reintegrate the Divine Energy, breaking down that illusion, until all truly is One, without differentiation.

The Alter Rebbe's theology is still vitally important to Chabad Hasidim, and it has been getting some traction lately amongst some Reconstructionists and some Jewish Renewal-niks, who learned it from the writings of Rabbi Arthur Green, who was deeply influenced by the Alter Rebbe's works.

However, many Conservative, Reform, and other Orthodox theologians find the Alter Rebbe's monism to be theologically problematic in various ways, and it has never managed to become exoteric enough to capture any majority of the Jewish people.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Fascinating! Thank you.
I will read more on Alter Rebbe and Chabad Hasidim.

Practically can someone practice Alter Rebbe's theology within the Jewish community?

From your reply it seems it would be acceptable to take this monistic approach. I hope I can find more info on theologically problematic issues.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Fascinating! Thank you.
I will read more on Alter Rebbe and Chabad Hasidim.

Practically can someone practice Alter Rebbe's theology within the Jewish community?

From your reply it seems it would be acceptable to take this monistic approach. I hope I can find more info on theologically problematic issues.

Sure, plenty of Lubavitcher Hasidim follow the Alter Rebbe's theology, as do a few Reconstructionists and Jewish Renewal-niks.

Practically speaking, as long as a Jew is following the halakhah and observing the commandments, there are very few hard and fast dogmas about theology (or anything else, really) that one must believe. Judaism is nearly always much more concerned about actions than it is with thoughts or beliefs.

If you'd like to learn more about the Alter Rebbe, a good beginning point is Zalman Schachter-Shalomi's Wrapped In A Holy Flame, which is a discussion of the early Hasidic masters, along with some syntheses of Hasidic teachings, and A Heart Afire, which offers teachings from the early Hasidic masters.

If you want to jump right into the deep end of the pool, Adin Steinsaltz has a three-book guide to studying the Tanya, which was the Alter Rebbe's mystical masterwork. They are Opening The Tanya, Learning From The Tanya, and Understanding The Tanya. I believe there is an English translation of the Tanya; if it's not on Amazon, try eichlers.com or nehora.com, both very good retailers of Jewish sacred text.

If you'd like to see how Reconstructionism/Jewish Renewal deals with the influence of the Alter Rebbe's monism, read Arthur Green's Seek My Face and Ehyeh: A Kabbalah For Tomorrow.
 
There is a good reason that you found this on a Chabad website.

The theology invoked in this piece is that of the Alter Rebbe, the founding Rebbe of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, who also began the Chabad movement.

The Alter Rebbe's theology was deeply mystical. He was greatly influenced-- perhaps more so than any other of the Hasidic masters-- by the Kabbalah of the ARI z"l (Rabbi Yitzhak Luria). The Alter Rebbe took that very austere and rather panentheistic theology to the next level. He is famous for summarizing it by saying Alles ist Gott un Gott is Alles ("Everything is God, and God is Everything"), by which he meant, essentially, monism. He taught that our individuality, our reality, all of Creation, is, ultimately, illusory: that literally, there is nothing but God, and the task of our lives is to reintegrate the Divine Energy, breaking down that illusion, until all truly is One, without differentiation.

The Alter Rebbe's theology is still vitally important to Chabad Hasidim, and it has been getting some traction lately amongst some Reconstructionists and some Jewish Renewal-niks, who learned it from the writings of Rabbi Arthur Green, who was deeply influenced by the Alter Rebbe's works.

However, many Conservative, Reform, and other Orthodox theologians find the Alter Rebbe's monism to be theologically problematic in various ways, and it has never managed to become exoteric enough to capture any majority of the Jewish people.

If it's ok to ask, how come the Alter Rebbe's theology is problematic?.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And I would like to know....
If God is not separate to the point of being a Spirit to which interaction is possible....

Then having a conversation....as did Moses....would not be impossible.

If God is altogether within....
Then we all know Him.....intuitively?.....collectively?.....without difference?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If it's ok to ask, how come the Alter Rebbe's theology is problematic?.

Well, Rabbinic Judaism is, generally speaking, a covenental religion. It is based on the concept of a brit, a sacred relationship between God and Israel. Among the parts of that relationship are mitzvot, things that we believe that God has commanded us to do. Included among the mitzvot is, for example, prayer: we are obligated to praise, thank, and offer acknowledgement and respect to God, every day.

If there is nothing but God, and all Creation is God, and even we are God...how can God have a covenent with God? How can God command God to do things? And what on earth would be the point of prayer? Is not the concept of God praying to Himself spiritually masturbatory? If Creation is merely an illusion, and our true purpose is essentially to unCreate everything, including ourselves, why ought we to place any value on ourselves as individuals? How is that an adequate motivation for ourselves in daily life? And given that God is eternal, and, sooner or later, would reunify anyhow, why should we care about anything, much less trying to get it all unCreated quicker?

The thing is, monistic panentheism is extremely difficult to reconcile with Rabbinic Jewish theology and practice. The Alter Rebbe accomplishes it by complex and abstruse mystical arguments concerning the sublimities and alterations of certain kinds of energies and powers, and so forth. And because he's the Alter Rebbe, and an enormous genius, he can do the theological equivalent of putting a mouse on a see-saw with an elephant and making the two balance perfectly.

But I find his theology singularly unmoving, and I am hardly the only one. Even some of the other Hasidic masters were uncomfortable with his mysticism, and it has seldom achieved much traction outside the Lubavitcher world. It has only been recently that non-Orthodox Jews embraced anything like it, as certain kinds of mysticism have been taken up and made exoteric by Reconstructionists and Jewish Renewalniks, who are uncomfortable with the idea of literal covenent, or actual commandments, or anything even remotely resembling anthropomorphism. It is their way of remaining Jewishly faithful while essentially avoiding Rabbinic Jewish theology.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
My understanding at this moment is that this 'apparent duality' is explained as Tzimtzum

Tzimtzum is, according to the ARI z"l's Kabbalah, the primordial act preparatory to the creation of the universe, in which God contracted himself in order to create a void in which something other than God might exist.

Later Kabbalists modified that concept in various ways, for various reasons, although clearly many were troubled by a postulation that implied that our entire universe's existence was defined by a lack of God's presence. The early Hasidic masters had several ways of reinterpreting tzimtzum, but most still lead to the notion of tzimtzum as a kind of paradox, wherein God can be absent and yet still present.

It was the Alter Rebbe's chiddush (novellum) that tzimtzum be understood not as a literal contraction of God's being, but as a contraction of God's integrated consciousness. This gets very complicated, as it involves an extremely subtle and occasionally precariously-balanced reinterpretation of Lurianic Kabbalistic cosmogony in all its elements. Tzimtzum alone is not the Alter Rebbe's explanation, he also involves a unique revisioning of shevirat hakelim ("The Breaking of The Vessels") a central doctrine of Lurianic Kabbalah that proposes that Creation was essentially accidental, in that the Divine energies leading to the existence of the universe were released in a kind of primordial cataclysm, when certain interior boundaries between different parts of God's emanated aspects shattered, which led to the existence of negative energy (the sitra achra) and of lost sparks (netzotzot) of Divine energy that must be reintegrated into the Ein Sof (God's eternal, transcendant, ineffable core) and, eventually, to the created universe. The Alter Rebbe revisions these things as symbolic of the fragmenting of God's consciousness and self-integrity, and the establishment of the illusion of created reality.

I still don't care for it. And in any case, I find the ARI z"l's original Kabbalah problematic, also, in that I have never cared for the notion of shevirat hakelim, or the resultant netzotzot, nor the Lurianic envisioning of the sitra achra. (And, again, I am not the only one to feel so.)

I never cared at all for the idea of tzimtzum,either, until I figured out how to spin it a different way. In my personal opinion, when God performed tzimtzum, He contracted Himself, but not entirely. Luria was painting his picture in only two dimensions, but I think to make this work, you need at least three or four dimensions. God contracted Himself not in the sense of withdrawing to leave a void or vacuum, but in the sense of "thinning" or "decohering" His essential energies, to leave room for something to exist in the "in-between" space.

Think of it this way: fish live in water. Water flows through them. They cannot exist outside of water. Water surrounds and sustains them. Like most creatures on this planet, water makes up part of their elemental structure. Yet they themselves are not water, but are creatures that live in water, that move through water, that are in water but not part of it-- their being is separate from the water, though they need it to survive. The universe and every being in it is like fish in water, where the water is God's essence. Those parts of God where the universe is not, must be more akin to ice-- still water, but too compacted to have room within it for fish or other organisms to exist.

That kind of tzimtzum is an idea I can live with.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Hello Levite
Firstly, and I say this with kindness, I am not looking to debate, but to learn about this fascinating topic, so please don't consider any of my present or future comments to be intended to try to devalue or change your or other members perspectives (as if they even could). :)

The fourth dimension is time and space in my opinion, which is your water. Time and space depend God in my opinion, I would be interested to know how the scripture describes it.

I have started to read the book of Tanya on-line. Am I right to understand that the core of the scripture is the Torah and that one must in a sense demonstrate their point from the Torah?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Hello Levite
Firstly, and I say this with kindness, I am not looking to debate, but to learn about this fascinating topic, so please don't consider any of my present or future comments to be intended to try to devalue or change your or other members perspectives (as if they even could). :)

The fourth dimension is time and space in my opinion, which is your water. Time and space depend God in my opinion, I would be interested to know how the scripture describes it.

I have started to read the book of Tanya on-line. Am I right to understand that the core of the scripture is the Torah and that one must in a sense demonstrate their point from the Torah?

It would never have occurred to me to take any of your comments amiss.

And I would concur that the paradigm will function using time as a fourth dimension, although technically, I think the fourth dimension is more or less what might be termed hyperspace. But it is the spread of 3+ dimensions that make the water analogy function.

I'm not sure scripture comes down to any discussion resembling this, save perhaps only at the most subtle, mystical level of interpretation, and that is pretty far from the level of plain meaning. That said, if you find such things of interest, I recommend very much reading Aryeh Kaplan's translation of and commentary upon Sefer Yetzirah ("The Book of Creation"), which is one of the earliest texts of Kabbalah (and my favorite), and is in some ways uniquely suited to analogy with dimensional physics.

In any case, yes, the Torah is central to understanding any of this.

Kabbalah is the apex of a pyramid of knowledge. In order to fully appreciate and comprehend the nuances Kabbalah is wrought from, one must have mastered Tanakh (the entirety of the Hebrew Bible), Talmud, halakhah (Jewish Law), and the classic commentators on both Torah and Talmud, as well as previous works of Kabbalah and pre-Kabbalistic mysticism. And to really get it, one must learn these works in the original Hebrew and Aramaic, because much of the nuance of Kabbalah lies in artful plays on words, rearrangements of letters, numerological alphabetical significances, and allusory references to verses in scripture, all of which are inevitably almost totally lost in translation.

Torah is a clear and fundamental necessity, though. That is the first stepping stone that cannot be dispensed with.
 

Dena

Active Member
I was just reading The Secret Life of God by Rabbi David Aaron (which I did not like at all) and he speaks on this topic. He then says that in real life the panentheistic view has to be kept a secret. It's a short book though, so he doesn't go into anything much on why it's an issue. It's not the idea I dislike it's his whole presentation as if he knows everything. Just doesn't work for me.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the extra info, Levite!

I was just reading The Secret Life of God by Rabbi David Aaron (which I did not like at all) and he speaks on this topic. He then says that in real life the panentheistic view has to be kept a secret. It's a short book though, so he doesn't go into anything much on why it's an issue. It's not the idea I dislike it's his whole presentation as if he knows everything. Just doesn't work for me.

Good tip, Dena. I will stay clear of Rabbi David Aaron's book for the moment and focus on those suggested by Levite and the Book of Tanya, which is online.

My guess as to why a panenthistic life "needs" to be kept secret is that it is not orthodox practice and there are many who strongly disagree that creation and creator are one. This can lead to problems in that individual's community. One reason to separate G-d and His creation is the problem of evil, if man is God (or divine) why does man sin and commit evil? Given the evil in this world, it can upset people if one outwardly declares that G-d is panenthistic.

In additonal to the points Levite touches on above, the reason for evil in the panenthistic models can be explained by some kind of concealment or force, albeit divine in origin it, which deludes man and leads him to sin. I hope to confirm what that might be (if such a thing exists) according to the book of Tanya etc.

I agree with the idea of not limiting G-d. It just doesn't seem our place to do so.

I agree personally and I am hoping to learn the scriptural reasoning too. The emphasis is on hope. :eek:
 
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