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There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many atheists are just so indoctrinated that they cann't reason like to have a normal dialog with others about religious topics ... They are pre-programmed to repeat the same atheists dogmas again and again and again ... Finding an atheist willing to have a rational dialogue on religious matters is like meeting a monotheistic Hindu.
You probably are referring to critical thinkers, who become agnostic atheists if they take reason and empiricism to its logical conclusion. The way you and they think is different. They can't both be valid reasoning. They bring academic values to the table, and you don't. Your standards and requirements for belief are not theirs, and your "reasoning" fallacious.

Indoctrination is how religion is taught, not critical thought. Indoctrination is teaching through repetition, not evidenced argument. Since teachers of unfalsifiable religious doctrines can't produce the latter, they can only tell you what to believe over and over. That's indoctrination. "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

Another important distinction between religious indoctrination and education using evidenced argument is that the indoctrinator cares what you believe, and isn't happy until you relent. He'll often have an emotion reaction to somebody resisting accepting the repeated doctrine. In contrast, your educator only tests for what you know. An evolutionist in Sunday school will get a hard time, but a creationist in a university evolution class can get an A for learning it and never be asked whether he believes it.

What you're really complaining about is your inability to meet the critical thinker's criteria for belief. He won't relax his method of evaluating evidence, and you see that as unreasonable - poor reasoning. He sees you the same way - unreasonable.

Yes both Mark and Paul where influenced by the same people, (first generation Christians) but this is a good thing.
It means that their thinking wasn't independent.
the documents are still independent even if they are influenced by the same people
What is an independent document?
life doesn’t come from non life naturally, in the same was water doesn’t become ICE at 100c degrees.
It appears likely that life arises wherever the conditions for its possibility exist the way pure water at atmospheric pressure boils at 100c every time those conditions exist.
we know that abiogenesis occurred at least once..............so there is your evidence for magic, according to your criteria.
Abiogenesis doesn't meet my definition of magic, which requires the suspension of physical law.
the evidnece for the resurection is as strogn as the evidnece for any other historical claim that you would accept as fact.
Disagree. The ideas I accept as likely historical all regard events that we know can happen, the only question being whether they did.
Give me an example of an event in the gospels that meets these 3 points:
1 Is also reported by Paul
2 that is not accepted as a historical fact by most non-Christian scholars (including atheists)
3 That doesn’t have theological implications that atheist don’t like
You will not find a single example. This confirms that events that are reported by Paul and at least 1 Gospel are taken as historical truths even by atheist scholar. This shows that the combination of Paul + 1 Gospel is good enough to establish a historical truth.
Are you suggesting that this establishes that a resurrection occurred? If so, I disagree. Resurrecting a three-days dead corpse may well be impossible. If so, no words in any book change that. And even if it were possible, no words establish that it happened in that time and place to that person. This is where we part ways philosophically.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
You probably are referring to critical thinkers, who become agnostic atheists if they take reason and empiricism to its logical conclusion. The way you and they think is different. They can't both be valid reasoning. They bring academic values to the table, and you don't. Your standards and requirements for belief are not theirs, and your "reasoning" fallacious.

Indoctrination is how religion is taught, not critical thought. Indoctrination is teaching through repetition, not evidenced argument. Since teachers of unfalsifiable religious doctrines can't produce the latter, they can only tell you what to believe over and over. That's indoctrination. "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

Another important distinction between religious indoctrination and education using evidenced argument is that the indoctrinator cares what you believe, and isn't happy until you relent. He'll often have an emotion reaction to somebody resisting accepting the repeated doctrine. In contrast, your educator only tests for what you know. An evolutionist in Sunday school will get a hard time, but a creationist in a university evolution class can get an A for learning it and never be asked whether he believes it.

What you're really complaining about is your inability to meet the critical thinker's criteria for belief. He won't relax his method of evaluating evidence, and you see that as unreasonable - poor reasoning. He sees you the same way - unreasonable.
...
That was quite a long prefabricated judging-mantra.
You seem to have some opinion about ME.
Do you know ME? :cool:
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And that claim was repeatedly refuted, even if you did not understand the refutation. The mistakes were yours.

No, you called me a liar and then were only able to support it with more false claims. And then you ended your post with another false claim about others. Naughty naughty.. Your inability to understand does not mean that you were not refuted. And I am not the only one that has done sol Others have used the same arguments against you. Repeatedly. Are they now lying too? Or maybe, just maybe, you are wrong once again as you almost always are.

And that claim was repeatedly refuted

You didn’t refuted the claim that Paul and Mark didn’t copied from each other

All you did was invoke a an unrelated conspiracy theory related to “filtration of documents”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member

I assume Josephus' "The Jewish War" is not good enough for you.

Of the War — Book VII​


Containing the interval of about three years.
From the taking of Jerusalem by Titus, to the sedition at Cyrene.


Chapter 1.


How the entire city of Jerusalem was demolished, excepting three towers. And how Titus commended his soldiers in a speech made to them; and distributed rewards to them; and then dismissed many of them.


1. Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay, or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury: (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done:) Cæsar gave orders that they should now demolish the intire city, and temple: but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency, that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne: and so much of the wall as inclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison: as were the towers also spared in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valour had subdued. But for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground, by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to, by the madness of those that were for innovations. A city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.



I assume Josephus' "The Jewish War" is not good enough for you.

Talking to you is like talking to a Wall………………….yes Josephus is good enough for me, and I will not reject a claim made Josephus unless I have good reason to do so (he has the benefit of the doubt)

Which is why I don’t reject the historicity of that event-.

But as I said before and you have ignored twice……………….. you have to show that your source (josephus) is better than Paul + The gospels.



1 For the temple you have 1 source from a contemporary author (josephus) and that was good enough for you (and for me)

2 for the resurrection we have at least 3 sources from contemporary authors (Paul, John and Mark)

So 3 sources are usually better than one……………so unless you explain why should we make an exception and prefer josephus over the sum of the other 3 sources, my point remains true.

Another alternative (the simplest in my opinion) is:

“admit that the only reason for why you accept the destruction of the temple and reject the resurection, is because the first is consistent with your naturalistic world view and the second goes against your philosophical view of the world?”

Just admit that you rejecting the resurrection as a historical event, has nothing to do with weather if the historical evidence if good or not .. it has to do with your own personal wordl view



As a side note, and anticipating your answer………

1 Your source is full of miracles and supernatural events too, so if you reject the bible because it has miracles…….. you should reject Josephus too.

2 your source has a clear and obvious agenda, and political motivations, so if you reject my sources for “having an agenda” you should reject your sources.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
Talking to you is like talking to a Wall………………….yes Josephus is good enough for me, and I will not reject a claim made Josephus unless I have good reason to do so (he has the benefit of the doubt)

Which is why I don’t reject the historicity of that event-.

But as I said before and you have ignored twice……………….. you have to show that your source (josephus) is better than Paul + The gospels.



1 For the temple you have 1 source from a contemporary author (josephus) and that was good enough for you (and for me)

2 for the resurrection we have at least 3 sources from contemporary authors (Paul, John and Mark)

So 3 sources are usually better than one……………so unless you explain why should we make an exception and prefer josephus over the sum of the other 3 sources, my point remains true.

Another alternative (the simplest in my opinion) is:

“admit that the only reason for why you accept the destruction of the temple and reject the resurection, is because the first is consistent with your naturalistic world view and the second goes against your philosophical view of the world?”

Just admit that you rejecting the resurrection as a historical event, has nothing to do with weather if the historical evidence if good or not .. it has to do with your own personal wordl view



As a side note, and anticipating your answer………

1 Your source is full of miracles and supernatural events too, so if you reject the bible because it has miracles…….. you should reject Josephus too.

2 your source has a clear and obvious agenda, and political motivations, so if you reject my sources for “having an agenda” you should reject your sources.
Basically you're saying, "Don't bother me with secular historical evidence. Secular historical evidence is worthless against any claims made in the Bible. If the Bible says a donkey talked in Genesis you can bet your life on it. If the Bible says Moses turned a staff into a snake in Exodus you can bet your life on it. The Bible is the most historically reliable document in the world and anything it says can be taken by all historians as the most truthful most accurate testament of historical events that has ever been conceived."

Personally, I think you're yanking our collective chains, trying to say the most outrageous things you can think of so you can then sit back and have a good knee-slapping laugh at our eye-popping incredulity. I've run into this type on other boards. I pretty much have said all I can say on the matter.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You didn’t refuted the claim that Paul and Mark didn’t copied from each other

All you did was invoke a an unrelated conspiracy theory related to “filtration of documents”
Nope. I never claimed that they copied from each other. That was your ridiculous claim. It was explained to you why you are wrong.

We are done with that. Move on to your next loss.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
It may be what they claim, but no, that is not why anybody who believes in Jesus does so. The evidence doesn't support the belief, which therefore must be held by faith to be believed
I think that the problem here is that you do not understand christian philosophy at all. You are making a comment here that is completely at odds with what Christians believe. Its the step between Christ and God that requires faith...not the existence of Christ himself. That is essentially proven fact (the evidence of his existence is overwhelming and on the balance of probabilities given all of the other related historical information surrounding his existence (such as other people, times, places etc), its far more well-proven than socrates...who i think is a construct of Plato actually given the only couple of witnesses to his existence were from Platos school and one of those few witnesses is quoting the witness of one of the others in the school who claimed to have seen him.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think that the problem here is that you do not understand christian philosophy at all. You are making a comment here that is completely at odds with what Christians believe. Its the step between Christ and God that requires faith...not the existence of Christ himself. That is essentially proven fact (the evidence of his existence is overwhelming and on the balance of probabilities given all of the other related historical information surrounding his existence (such as other people, times, places etc), its far more well-proven than socrates...who i think is a construct of Plato actually given the only couple of witnesses to his existence were from Platos school and one of those few witnesses is quoting the witness of one of the others in the school who claimed to have seen him.
What do you think is evidence for Jesus?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Basically you're saying, "Don't bother me with secular historical evidence. Secular historical evidence is worthless against any claims made in the Bible. If the Bible says a donkey talked in Genesis you can bet your life on it. If the Bible says Moses turned a staff into a snake in Exodus you can bet your life on it. The Bible is the most historically reliable document in the world and anything it says can be taken by all historians as the most truthful most accurate testament of historical events that has ever been conceived."

Personally, I think you're yanking our collective chains, trying to say the most outrageous things you can think of so you can then sit back and have a good knee-slapping laugh at our eye-popping incredulity. I've run into this type on other boards. I pretty much have said all I can say on the matter.
That is called a red Harring falacy......logical fallacy in which irrelevant information is presented with the intent of distracting attention from that relevant information. Why are taking dunkies and exodus relevant to the conversation?

Things are very simple

1 you have a single source (josephus) confirming the destrucción of the temple in 70ad....... and this is good enough for you to stablish the event as a probable historical fact

2 you have atleast 3 contemporary independent sources for the resurection (paul mark John).............. but this is not good enough to stablish it as a probable fact.
* we obviously have much more than those 3 sources, but I don't whant to complicate things.

Why?


I personally grant both claims.... both are well supported..... all I am aaying is that 3 contemporary sources are better than just one.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Nope. I never claimed that they copied from each other.



Ok we agree on this (that is what I mean by independent)

We are done with that. Move on to your next loss.

Ok here is your chance of showing that you are correct, and that I am wrong.

From earlier post....

2 events that are reported in Paul and at least 1 gospel are accepted as fact by most historian

Your reply.....

"Only the mundane ones. And some of those claims have been shown to be wrong by historians as you well know.. You need evidence for the magical ones and there is none for that."


Suppoort your asertion in red letters.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok we agree on this (that is what I mean by independent)



Ok here is your chance of showing that you are correct, and that I am wrong.

From earlier post....



Your reply.....

"Only the mundane ones. And some of those claims have been shown to be wrong by historians as you well know.. You need evidence for the magical ones and there is none for that."


Suppoort your asertion in red letters.
Your definition of independent is incorrect.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok it all boils to semantics


When are you going tu support your assertion
No, it is not semantics. You use standards that make your 'proof" garbage. Your standards fail because they are not consistent.

And I already supported that claim more than once. Your inability to understand, as had been pointed not just by me again and again is not my problem. This is like your debates in evolution that you always lost. At best you would not let yourself understand refutations, though to most it looked as if you were just lying eventually.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That was quite a long prefabricated judging-mantra.
Prefabricated? It was written just for you. Did you understand it? If so, did you want to try and refute it - to explain why it's not correct in your opinion?
You seem to have some opinion about ME. Do you know ME?
Yes, at least well enough for present purposes. I know how you reason and much of what you believe based in your words here. I don't know your hair color or favorite foods. Nor do I know where you live, what you look like, where or how you live, your favorite foods, your livelihood, your health, etc., and that's quite a bit I don't know about you, but none of it matters for my present purpose.
I think that the problem here is that you do not understand christian philosophy at all. You are making a comment here that is completely at odds with what Christians believe. Its the step between Christ and God that requires faith...not the existence of Christ himself.
That was in response to, "It may be what they claim, but no, that is not why anybody who believes in Jesus does so. The evidence doesn't support the belief, which therefore must be held by faith to be believed," which was a response to your words, "The reason Christians believe in Jesus is because there is a wealth of evidence that exists in support of Him." My answer was regarding the supernatural beliefs. They're insufficiently supported.
That is essentially proven fact (the evidence of his existence is overwhelming
What are you calling proven fact and what proof are you offering? Proof is that which convinces. My opinion is that it is about 90% likely that an itinerant fundamentalist Hebrew reformer walked the Levant in the first century AD and was crucified, after which a religion was created and promulgated. Nothing else in the story rises to that level. That he had a dozen disciples is less likely. That he sat for a seder later called the Last Supper or was betrayed by somebody there are also less likely that 90%. If the story is legend rather than all myth, I can't tell you which elements were historical and which were embellishments apart from the miracles. But it also isn't relevant. If he wasn't a god or demigod, then it doesn't matter who he was any more than it matters who Homer and Virgil were.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You don’t seem to read my posts or even your own sources and keep repeatedly this ludicrous strawman.

The statement below basically reflects what I said and supported with multiple sources.

Yours merely confirmed what I said as accurate.

I won’t add any more detail so maybe you can understand and not keep in pretending I said something else.



Got it now?
The person not reading posts isn't me. Guess who that leaves.

"The archaeological evidence that has now been collected for most parts of the Roman Empire, however, shows overwhelmingly that the destruction of temples and their reuse as churches were exceptional rather than routine events,...and merely two aspects of the changing sacred landscape in late antiquity."



First of all they say this above in part because you didn't have to destroy a temple to reuse it, JUST THE IDOL representing the deity.

"More common than destruction was the practice of "desacralization" or "deconsecration".[70] According to the historical writings of Prudentius, the deconsecration of a temple merely required the removal of the cult statue and altar, and it could be reused. The Law Codes from around the same time as Prudentius say that temples “empty of illicit things” were to suffer no further damage and idols were only “illicit” if they were still venerated.[71] However, this was often extended to the removal or even destruction of other statues and icons, votive stelae, and all other internal imagery and decoration.[72]"


Constantine destroyed temples, he reclaimed them for his religion OR laws were enacted to terrorize Christians. You are straight up denying these facts.



"Persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire began during the reign of Constantine the Great (r. 306–337) in the military colony of Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem), when he destroyed a pagan temple for the purpose of constructing a Christian church.[1] Rome had periodically confiscated church properties, and Constantine was vigorous in reclaiming them whenever these issues were brought to his attention.[2] Christian historians alleged that Hadrian (2nd century) had constructed a temple to Aphrodite on the site of the crucifixion of Jesus on Golgotha hill in order to suppress Christian veneration there. Constantine used that to justify the temple's destruction, saying he was simply reclaiming the property.[3][4][5][6] Using the vocabulary of reclamation, Constantine acquired several more sites of Christian significance in the Holy Land."




Several examples here, and it sounds routine.



discriminatory imperial laws

"From 313, with the exception of the brief reign of Julian, non-Christians were subject to a variety of hostile and discriminatory imperial laws aimed at suppressing sacrifice and magic and closing any temples that continued their use. "


That quote says late antiquity, this is after that period:

"By the end of the period of Antiquity and the institution of the Law Codes of Justinian, there was a shift from the generalized legislation which characterized the Theodosian Code to actions which targeted individual centers of paganism.[10]: 248–9  The gradual transition towards more localized action, corresponds with the period when most conversions of temples to churches were undertaken: the late 5th and 6th centuries."


Even those who say it wasn't that bad still admit:

"However, by twenty-first century definitions, Constantine can be said to have practiced a mild psychological and economic persecution of pagans."

There is also some confusion on the cause of the temples destruction:

"Temple destruction is attested to in 43 cases in the written sources, but only four have been confirmed by archaeological evidence.[64] Archaeologists Lavan and Mulryan write that earthquakes, civil conflict and external invasions caused much of the temple destruction of this era.["

Civil conflict and external invasions?


ANOTHER tactic to destroy temples - "Constantine's principal contribution to the downfall of the temples lay quite simply in his neglect of them"

That is just part of why archaeologists are saying the actual destruction of temples was less than written record shows.


And like I already pointed out they used other methods to destroy paganism:

"The laws were not intended to convert; "the laws were intended to terrorize... Their language was uniformly vehement, and... frequently horrifying"."



The archaeological evidence isn't denying any of this, it's saying actual violence was less and psychological destruction was used instead.
Which is clear in the sources.
"Archaeological evidence, on the other hand, indicates that, outside of violent rhetoric, there were only isolated incidents of actual violence between Christians and pagans.


Again, why it's important what method Christians terrorized pagans with, I don't know because this is a completely different discussion and one in the wrong period to discuss Christian origins.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You don’t seem to read my posts or even your own sources and keep repeatedly this ludicrous strawman.

The statement below basically reflects what I said and supported with multiple sources.

Yours merely confirmed what I said as accurate.

I won’t add any more detail so maybe you can understand and not keep in pretending I said something else.



Got it now?
AND ANOTHER reason for the archaeological report you are talking about.

"
Problems with this view have arisen ( a tide of violent Christian iconoclasm that continued throughout the 390s and into the 400s) in the twenty-first century. Archaeological evidence for the violent destruction of temples in the fourth century, from around the entire Mediterranean, is limited to a handful of sites.[90] Temple destruction is attested to in 43 cases in the written sources, but only 4 of them have been confirmed by archaeological evidence.[33]


Is simply because the historicity and records are unclear.
"Trombley and MacMullen say part of why discrepancies between literary sources and archaeological evidence exist is because it is common for details in the literary sources to be ambiguous and unclear.[93][94] For example, Malalas claimed Constantine destroyed all the temples, then he said Theodisius destroyed them all, then he said Constantine converted them all to churches.[95]: 246–282 [90] "According to Procopius, in the 530s Justinian destroyed the temples of Philae widely identified as the last bastion of paganism in Egypt. But no priests are attested to after the 450s, ..."
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Again that is what I said and provided sources to support.

My point was that you were vastly overstating it by saying they destroyed all temples and all non canonical materials.

Even accounting for hyperbole that is not remotely accurate.

As I said, localised, limited and ad hoc is very different from empire wide, continuous, and systematic.

No, you are going by one archaeology report where it's been admitted there is too much confusion on what really happened.

Destruction of a temple can be as simple as destruction of the idol and repurposing it for Christianity.

The articles all speak of systematic terror through laws and legislation, sourced last post.

Also, how does this relate to Jesus?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Richar Career is an “Atheist Version” of Kent HOvind or Ken Ham, he simply throws a bunch of fallacious information, in a way that he sounds smart and convincing

Ad-Hom against Carrier is the most common apologist tactic. It's never shown to be true and reeks of desperation.

I an going to insist you demonstrate some fallacious information in the information I quoted from Carrier. I will repost it in a more current thread so you can demonstrate the fallacious information.

However, my first sources were NOT Carrier, I said the information CARRIER WAS SOURCING are from these journals.

The principal works to consult on this (all of which from peer reviewed academic presses) are:


H got a 700pg monograpg to pass peer-review and you actually think he throws a bunch of fallacious information around? This is almost incomprehensible he-said she-said confirmation bias.









If you pick randomly any of his claims it is easy to see his falsehoods
Excellent then you are going to point them out. We don't need random, we will use the quotes I already used.





I am I not aware of romans 13, but form his words alone, it is obvious that Mark is not coping from Paul, as Carrier claims, Paul is giving his personal opinion about taxes
Yes, Carrier says Paul is giving his opinion on taxes?


In Romans 13, Paul writes up his own opinions about taxation, arguing Christians should dutifully pay their taxes. We know these remarks are just his own opinions; not only because he represents them in no other way and has to contrive arguments for them—yet never resorts to the most potent argument of all (“the Lord said!”)—but also because so far as we can tell, everywhere else when Paul had “a commandment from the Lord” on something he was arguing for, he said so. For example: 1 Corinthians 7:10-12, 1 Corinthians 7:25, 1 Corinthians 9:14




and Mark claims that Jesus gave the instruction to pay taxes. There is a fundamental difference in their claims about taxes, and this difference would not be expected to be they copied form each other.
Then Mark gives a story, yet Paul had never heard it, even after decades of preaching and talking to Christians?



"So when we find a clever story about Jesus promoting the paying of taxes in Mark 12:13-17, where did Mark get that story? Why had Paul never heard of it, even after decades of “preaching Jesus” and engaging with other Christians, even the first Apostles, across a dozen or so provinces?

It’s quite obvious that Mark has taken Paul’s teaching and simply rewritten it into a pithier teaching from Jesus. Before Mark did that, there was no teaching from Jesus on the subject. Mark’s license to give authority to the teachings of apostles by attributing them to Jesus is a thing we will see many more examples of below; and many more are discussed in the literature cited above. And it’s the same as Matthew’s license in fabricating such elaborate discourses as The Sermon on the Mount, which mainstream peer reviewed scholarship has found to be a late invention of Greek authors that post-dates the Jewish War (see OHJ, pp. 465-68), and thus was never actually taught by Jesus. A conclusion all the more obvious from the fact that every parallel in it one might find in Paul comes from Paul’s own thoughts; Paul conspicuously shows no awareness of Jesus having ever said anything quotable on the same subjects. John likewise is generally agreed to have made up tons of speeches for Jesus as well. It’s what all other Gospel authors did. And if they all did it, we should assume Mark did too.



The Gospel is not eye-witness and "as told to me by". The Greek says this. So no, Jesus did not give any instructions.
Carrier mentions the chiasmus which further confirms this,



Mark 12:25 has Jesus say, “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” Notably, Paul had no knowledge of such a saying when he had to struggle to justify his view of the resurrection as being an abandoning of fleshly life and entering into uncorruptible celestial bodies (1 Corinthians 15:36-54; see my most thorough discussion in The Empty Tomb and its associated FAQ; Mark also lifts Paul’s distinction between bodies made by hands and those not, and puts it into the mouth of Jesus, by metaphor making exactly the same point as Paul regarding the nature of the resurrection—almost verbatim). So where did Mark get the idea that Jesus said this thing about angels and marriage? It seems quite evidently from Paul. By inventing a simple proverb for Jesus to have uttered, Mark is simplifying Paul’s discourse into a single line, as anyone who can figure out why “they will neither marry nor be given in marriage” and what it means “to be like the angels in heaven” will have sussed Paul’s entire discourse on the resurrection body. Thus illustrating again how Mark adapts Paul’s teaching by simplifying it into a story about Jesus.

But there is something even more remarkable about this parallel: it comes in the middle of a chiasmus Mark has constructed within Mark 12 that demonstrates his dependence on Paul. This was first discovered by Michael Turton and is used to significant effect under peer review by David Oliver Smith. As I showed in OHJ (Ch. 10.4), Mark is fond of chiastic structure and uses it often. And here we have an instance that demonstrates Mark’s knowledge of Paul’s Epistles. I here adapt this model from Turton’s demonstration:
ARomans 8:31-38, References Psalm 118, verse 6; then warns of persecution and denounces all religious authorities but Jesus = Mark 12:10-12, Quotes Psalm 118, verses 22-23; then mentions the religious authorities want to kill Jesus.
BRomans 13:1-7, Paul exhorts to obey your government and pay your taxes = Mark 12:13-17, Jesus declares “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”
C1 Corinthians 15:12-34, Paul confronts those who deny resurrection = Mark 12:18-23, Jesus confronts the Sadduccees who deny resurrection.
C’1 Corinthians 15:35-50, Paul answers what the resurrection body is like, after declaring the folly of those who don’t know (15:36) = Mark 12:24-27, Jesus answers what the resurrection body is like, after declaring the folly of those who don’t know (12:24).
B’Romans 13:8-10, Paul explains how love fulfills the Law = Mark 12:28-34, Jesus explains how love fulfills the Law.
A’1 Corinthians 15:24-28 references Psalm 110, verse 1 (in 15:25), and declares Jesus will defeat all enemies and authorities = Mark 12:35-40, Quotes the exact same verse in Psalm 110, then preaches to beware of the religious authorities.
These coincidences and parallels are so statistically improbable as to render any other explanation effectively impossible: Mark is adapting and playing off of specific content in Romans and 1 Corinthians.





First of all Carrier is using the journal papers listed above. The above example is from Michael Turton. So your ad-hom on Carrier doesn't even apply.

But is that your "refutation"? Just saying "No" Mark got that from Jesus? Even though that isn't how the Gospels work?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
This confirms that events that are reported by Paul and atleast 1 gosplel are taken as historical truths even by atheist scholars. …….. they only make arbitrary exceptions with the particular stuff that have theological implications they don’t like.
No, no historian does that. Right now the experts on Mark's use of Paul have all written papers in journals:

The principal works to consult on this (all of which from peer reviewed academic presses) are:


Eve-Marie Becker goes over the for and against but the evidence is too strong. The examples far too many.


In fact Mark uses Paul's criticism of the apostles being hypocritical and faltering.

  • Mark gets the idea from Paul (in Galatians 2:7-9 and 1 Corinthians 15:5) that there were originally twelve apostles and that the “pillars” were Peter, James and John, with Peter at the top, and James and John his right hand men; and in exact accord with Paul’s criticism of them, Mark depicts them as hypocritical and faltering (as well analyzed in Dykstra, Mark, pp. 109-25).
Mark uses messianic secrecy and Son of Man which Paul used"
  • Mark also gets from Paul the idea of messianic secrecy, a weird yet repeated theme in Mark’s Gospel, Paul having said Jesus’s identity was kept “a mystery,” “hidden,” so that “none of the rulers of this age understood it,” lest by knowing who he was they’d stop the crucifixion (from 1 Corinthians 2:6-10).
  • Mark could even get the idea from Paul of having Jesus announce himself everywhere as a “Son of Adam” (the actual meaning of “Son of Man” as adapted from the then-familiar Septuagint expression), Paul having called Jesus “the last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45), and Hebrews 2:5-9 identifying Jesus with a prophesied “Son of Man.”
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
1 When an event is attested in 2 or more independent sources , historians accept them as fact

2 events that are reported in Paul and at least 1 gospel are accepted as fact by most historian
Mark is not considered an independent source. It's anonymous, name added late 2nd century and starts with "as told to me by"

More examples of Mark's use of Paul from the journal papers
  • Mark 1:1 uses Paul’s phrase “the beginning of the Gospel” verbatim (Philippians 4:15); and “Gospel of Christ,” otherwise unique to Paul (e.g. Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 9:12, 2 Corinthians 2:12, Galatians 1:7, 1 Thessalonians 3:2).
  • Paul then goes on to talk about how he was sent forth to preach it; likewise Mark immediately follows with a quotation of Isaiah declaring God hath sent his messenger, only switching the reference from Paul to John the Baptist introducing Jesus, the Gospel-reified. Dykstra also makes a good case that Mark has modeled his John the Baptist after Paul (Mark, pp. 147-48).
  • Mark 1:14 uses Paul’s phrase “Gospel of God,” verbatim (Romans 15:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and when introducing the rest of his narrative purpose (just as Paul does in Romans 1:1).
  • Mark then immediately juxtaposes the Gospel with manual labor (in Mark 1:16-20) just as Paul does (in 1 Thessalonians 2:9).
  • Mark 1:29-31 indirectly reveals Peter was married, just as Paul indirectly reveals Peter was married (1 Corinthians 9:5).
  • Mark 2:16 describes Jesus being wrongly chastised by Pharisees (Mark’s principal stand-in for any arch-conservative Jews) for eating and drinking with “sinners and tax collectors” (i.e. Gentiles), just as Paul describes Peter being wrongly chastised by conservative Jews for doing the same thing (Galatians 2:11-14). Mark and Paul’s message is the same.
  • Mark 3:1-5 borrows themes and vocabulary from Paul’s discussions of the very same issue: Jesus looks upon his Jewish critics “with anger [orgês] and grieved [sullupoumenos] at their hardness [pôrôsei] of heart”; in Romans 9 Paul said he was for that very same reason grieved [lupê, v. 2] and God was for that very same reason angry [orgên, v. 22] at their hardness [v. 18], which Paul later describes with the same word used by Mark [pôrôsis, 11:25].
  • Mark 4:10-13 relates Mark’s model for the whole Gospel as disguising deeper truths allegorically within seemingly literal stories (“parables”); and in doing so declares that the uninitiated will not be allowed to see or hear the real meaning, just as Paul says (in e.g. Romans 11:7-10, 1 Corinthians 2:9-10, etc.).
  • Mark 6:7 imagines Jesus sending missionaries in pairs; Paul often says he was paired with someone on his missions (1 Corinthians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 9:6; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Philippians 2:22; Philemon 1:1).
  • Mark 6:8-10 has Jesus assume missionaries will be fed and housed by others, reifying into visceral and poetic terms Paul’s mention of the fact that “the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14).
  • Mark 7:20-23 lists as the sins that make one unclean “sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.” Accordingly, Paul says, “Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) and likewise those who pursue “envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice” and are “gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful” (Romans 1:29-31); and elsewhere says those will be excluded from the kingdom who pursue “sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like” (Galatians 5:19-21). The other lists are nearly identical, Mark only ending with the catch-all “arrogance and folly” to encompass the otherwise-unmentioned idolatry, God-hating, insolence, drunkenness, strife, boasting and gossiping and so forth (while lewdness is a catch-all that would include “men who have sex with men” and “orgies” etc.).
  • Mark 7:26-29 reifies into a whole story the sentiment of Paul that God’s rewards must go to the Jew first, the Gentile second (Romans 1:16).
  • Mark 8:12 has Jesus lament to the Jews, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it,” reifying Paul’s declaration of the very same thing, that only in their folly “Jews demand signs,” which renders the Gospel “a stumbling block” to them (1 Corinthians 1:22-23).
  • Mark 8:15 has Jesus warn against “the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod,” thus reifying into allegorical story-form Paul’s more general warning against “the leaven of malice and wickedness” (1 Corinthians 5:8).
  • Mark 8:17-18 has Jesus declare, “Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear?” echoing Paul’s citation of scripture on the same point, that only insiders will correctly see and hear, and thus “get the point” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10); a concept I just noted Mark had reified earlier in Jesus’s explanation of secret teachings (Mark 4:10-13), which really is a key to Mark’s entire Gospel, including the scene in Mark 8, which isn’t really about Jesus having historically created food, but is an allegory for the Gospel itself.
  • In that same passage, Mark has Jesus seemingly quote Isaiah 6:9, just as Paul does in making the same point in Romans 11:8. But in Isaiah the order is hearing, then seeing; Paul switched the order to seeing, then hearing. Thus the fact that Mark also did that further evinces his reliance on Paul.
 
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