There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[F1fan]

Satan could have easily used the Serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy. Satan being like a behind-the-scenes puppet master.

All as God created and allowed.

 

[YoursTrue]

We've only got the written record or lack thereof to go on. Scholars puzzle why Philo didn't write about the most famous Jew in the entire Middle East, especially after the Great Darkness, the Great Earthquake, and The Great Zombie Rising. The only logical conclusion one can drawn is that he didn't write about it because it never happened. Is there any way Philo even if he had been in Alexandria at the time could have avoided the Great Darkness that Mark says covered the world? Is there any good reason other than it never happened to explain why culture from around the world don't have a single record of this Great Darkness? The only logical reason, True is that it never happened. It was all created in Matthew's fertile imagination.

Now you say you believe Pilate said, "What is truth?" How do you know this and why do you trust the gospel writers when it has been shown conclusively by scholars that the gospels were not written by eyewitnesses, but by anonymous Greek scholars who never saw Jesus or the apostles and were writing at minimum a half a century after Jesus? Where did they get their info to describe in such detail the trial of Jesus when no Roman records mention Jesus' trial? To say, "Well maybe there were records back then" would be pure speculation and it's a hell of a thing to base one's whole life on speculating that maybe records mentioning Jesus existed but don't today. Rational people I believe should be basing their religious beliefs on what the historic records shows AT THIS TIME and right now there simply isn't anything that substantiates what is found in the gospels.

Absence of historical data is no proof that something (whatever it was) never occurred. In fact in this case it might exemplify Philo's disinterest as well as desire not to record it. Many writings were lost anyway. Doesn't prove anything. You can say it does, but it really does not. Thus your contention is drowning.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

All as God created and allowed.

We can read about Satan's challenge at Job 2:4-5 which God allowed.
Besides Satan challenging Job we are all challenged.
'Touch our flesh..... ' ( Loose physical health ) and under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus proved faithful under bad conditions and so can we.
We are all drawn out by one's own desire (includes Satan) - James 1:13-15

 

[YoursTrue]

I just love how accurate the Bible is in the OT prophecies.

God did have plans for us but God expects humans to carry them out.
God ushered in the Golden Age by sending Baha’u’llah, and this marks the beginning of an entirely new religious cycle, called the Age of Fulfillment

The Promised Day is Come and now is the time that the prophecies are going to be fulfilled, since the Revelation of Baha'u'llah revealed what will be necessary for us to carry out God's plans.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.​

​

“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.” “Such shall be its plight,” He, in another connection, has declared, “that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.” “These fruitless strifes,” He, on the other hand, contemplating the future of mankind, has emphatically prophesied, in the course of His memorable interview with the Persian orientalist, Edward G. Browne, “these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family.” “Soon,” He predicts, “will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.” “After a time,” He also has written, “all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.” “The whole earth,” He, moreover, has stated, “is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings.” “All nations and kindreds,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá likewise has written, “…will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”​

​

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”​

​

The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 116-117​

How do you feel or think about what is called 'Armageddon'? Many people view it as a disaster. How do you feel about it?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus
Of course there isn't, and it should come as no surprise.

You never heard of Flavius Josephus ? who said that James was the brother of Christ - Jewish Antiquities XX,200
What about Tacitus, didn't Tacitus exist ? Tacitus said Christus, the founder of the name 'Christian' .... undergone death by Pontius Pilatus.- Annals XV,44
What about Pontius Pilate, didn't he exist ? ______
What about Suetonius, didn't he exist ? Who believed Jesus caused or created disturbances, but he did Not doubt Jesus existence.
What about Pliny the Younger, didn't he exist ? ..... and who finally cursed Christ - Pliny-Letters Book X,XCVI
Weren't the public figures mentioned at Luke chapter 3 real people ?

 

[Brian2]

People who make comments should know what they are talking about, wouldn't you agree, Brian? Paul had nothing to do with writing the gospels.

Sorry I though you might be interested in knowing that there is good evidence that Jesus existed. My mistake.

But to your question:

"Much has been said about Mark’s poor knowledge of the geography of Palestine. A classic case is his bizarre itinerary for Jesus leaving Tyre to go north, then south-east, then back east again, to reach is final destination. On the map here, locate Tyre, run your finger north to Sidon, then let it wander to the right and downwards till it reaches Decapolis, then zero up to the “lake” of Galilee."

Naturally apologists will make excuses and cover up the errors with nonsensical explanations for why Jesus, to get south, went north.

Mark 7:31 Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.[h] 32 There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged Jesus to place his hand on him.

It seems to be a classic case of people making comments and not knowing what they are talking about.
Jesus was zig zagging around Israel for a start, preaching all over, and the passage does not tell us that He was heading from Tyre to Galilee, that was not an itinerary, that was just where He ended up and the route He took.
And in the translation I have (above) it is pretty straight forward and different to the description given in your site which I happened upon and which does not even give the scripture reference. Mark: failed geography, but great bible student
There is no need for any apologetics to explain it. There is nothing to explain.

 

[Brian2]

You have got to be kidding us, bro. Ehrman lost his faith decades ago. If he's a true believer, it's belief that Jesus never existed.

Bart Ehrman on the Existence of Jesus

Skeptic Bart Ehrman says to those who deny Jesus existed, “It makes you look foolish.”

www.str.org

But don't panic, you can still not believe the gospels while believing Jesus existed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Job 19:26

Job said while in his flesh he would see God.
'See' can also mean ' behold ', but how because No man can see God and live - Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1st John 4:12
Job's eyes of understanding were opened , Job heard God's word. - Job 42:1-6
Job believed in a future resurrection - Job 19:25; and resurrection as mentioned at John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15

 

[Thrillobyte]

No, and neither do I. But both he and I and a lot of both religious and secular scholars don't have a problem believing there is evidential reasons to believe that Jesus was a real historical person that gave rise to the mythologies about him.

My entire point has been that your argument that there is no contemporaneous authors who speaks of him, therefore means he never existed is not a valid claim at all. Do you get my point yet?

Of course. I applaud your acknowledging Jesus was not a supernatural entity, just an ordinary man who died and that was the end of him physically. Now let me clear up a misunderstanding here. Please recall I said in the OP:

"There may be a possibility an ordinary man who was a Jewish zealot was crucified by the Romans for sedition against Rome but again no historian mentions one."

I think this is an honest statement. I never said "The lack of any entries in the historic record proves Jesus never lived.
There is no entry in the historic record of an ordinary Jesus ben Joseph so the only evidence we have (if you want to call it evidence) is the presence of Christians. Scholars just assume someone named Jesus had to have lived because who then did the churchmen based the legends on?

This is the little deceptive game Christians play. Scholars say, "Of course there was a historic Jesus" No way in hell are they referring to a supernatural Jesus, they're just referring to an ordinary man. But Christians immediately seize on this and proclaim: "Aha! You see? Historians admit a historic Jesus lived. There it is. Scholars are admitting the divine Jesus son of God who died for our sins did live."

You did it yourself somewhat, Windwalker. in your post #565 when you said,

"Excellent! You have now proven my point. The very fact that Ehman acknowledges these things, yet he rejects this notion that Jesus never existed, proves my point! Thank you."

You know for a fact Ehrman rejects the divine Jesus. Yet you didn't clarify that he is in actuality only acknowledging an ordinary non-divine Jesus existed. But you deliberately ( I believe) failed to make the distinction. Lukethethird did the exact same thing in his post #624, pretending Ehrman is referring to the divine Jesus when Ehrman is referring to the non-divine Jesus..

Personally, I'm somewhere in between "it's possible" and "it's likely". The fact he is not mentioned in the historic record only causes me some doubt with regard to the ordinary man Jesus. I have no doubts at all that a divine son of God Jesus who died and rose and ascended never lived. No scholar outside the Christian community believes for a second a divine Jesus walked the earth, not even Ehrman. But even Ehrman, a trained historian is so doubtful of even an ordinary man Jesus that he makes an extremely weak pitiful case for one as I stated in #631. No scholar that I have read gives his book on Jesus any serious credence. His "evidence" is so anemic one is left no more convinced Jesus was real than they were before they picked it up. One critic said:

"After Ehrman's debacle, what serious scholar will be willing to risk reputation to come to the defense of Jesus of Nazareth?"

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yahweh was the nature God of the Sini volcano. The Israelites adopted the name during their stay in the region.

Go further back to Abraham's day at Genesis 22:14

 

[F1fan]

We can read about Satan's challenge at Job 2:4-5 which God allowed.
Besides Satan challenging Job we are all challenged.
'Touch our flesh..... ' ( Loose physical health ) and under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus proved faithful under bad conditions and so can we.
We are all drawn out by one's own desire (includes Satan) - James 1:13-15

First, do you think God gets caught off guard and surprized by events? Second, do you think God doesn't know what will occur in the future?

 

[F1fan]

Absence of historical data is no proof that something (whatever it was) never occurred.

Indeed. But without evidence no one can believe it did.

Many people that are scholars accept the FACT that Jesus existed in the first century.

It's not a fact. It is a conclusion based on evidence. The conclusion could be wrong.

The question is (not in my mind anymore) did he do what the Bible says he did? I believe he did for various reasons. But we all must make up our minds.

You don't believe due to evidence and reasoning.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First, do you think God gets caught off guard and surprized by events? Second, do you think God doesn't know what will occur in the future?

God was Not caught off guard. Just giving Satan enough rope to hang himself.
God already told us what will occur in the future.
The 'final signal', so to speak as found at 1st Thess. 5:2-3
That saying of Peace and Security will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
Jesus will bring an end to ' death ' on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[F1fan]

God was Not caught off guard. Just giving Satan enough rope to hang himself.

And take out humanity as well, so was that part of God's plan too?

God already told us what will occur in the future.

Just not in a clear way.

The 'final signal', so to speak as found at 1st Thess. 5:2-3
That saying of Peace and Security will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14

Just as God planned for, right, since God doesn't get surprized. So what happens to humans is outside of our control.

The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

That hasn't worked.

Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2

That hasn't happened.

Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24

This hasn't happened.

Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.

No date?

Jesus will bring an end to ' death ' on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

The why did God create death in the first place?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you feel or think about what is called 'Armageddon'? Many people view it as a disaster. How do you feel about it?

In the Bible, Armageddon refers to a climactic future battle between God and the forces of evil, as recorded in the book of Revelation.

Baha'u'llah described that battle in this passage, calling it what "shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake."

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119​

That passage I cited before calls it a universal convulsion:

"Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.”​

The Promised Day Is Come​

 

[Trailblazer]

So, any future for humans now lies in God's safe hands until Resurrection Day.

Resurrection Day is when Christ returns and believers are spiritually resurrected. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.

Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.

The Millennium-Long Day of a new government on Earth began when Christ returned on Resurrection Day,

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia

That is when ' death ' will be No more on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Blessed are the meek because they will inherit the Earth - Matt. 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11, 29

Spiritual death will be no more on earth. Physical death will always exist on earth since human bodies were created by God as mortal.

 

[YoursTrue]

In the Bible, Armageddon refers to a climactic future battle between God and the forces of evil, as recorded in the book of Revelation.

Baha'u'llah described that battle in this passage, calling it what "shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake."

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119​

That passage I cited before calls it a universal convulsion:

"Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.”​

The Promised Day Is Come​

Do you think Bahaullah read the Bible or maybe heard it read somewhere?

 

[YoursTrue]

Job said while in his flesh he would see God.
'See' can also mean ' behold ', but how because No man can see God and live - Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1st John 4:12
Job's eyes of understanding were opened , Job heard God's word. - Job 42:1-6
Job believed in a future resurrection - Job 19:25; and resurrection as mentioned at John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15

Yes, no doubt. It is a form of speech, I appreciate that. Similar to the expression I have seen the coming of the Lord..

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, no doubt. It is a form of speech, I appreciate that. Similar to the expression I have seen the coming of the Lord..

Resurrection Day is when Christ returns and believers are spiritually resurrected. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.

The Millennium-Long Day of a new government on Earth began when Christ returned on Resurrection Day,

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia

Spiritual death will be no more on earth. Physical death will always exist on earth since human bodies were created by God as mortal.

Did Bahaullah believe in transmigration of a soul, lie from cows to humans or something like that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think Bahaullah read the Bible or maybe heard it read somewhere?

Baha'u'llah did not need to read the Bible since He received a new Revelation from God.
In that Revelation, God taught Him the knowledge of all that has ever been.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”​

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57​