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There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So what did Bahalluah say about the reason anyone is on the earth, by the way?
The main reason we are here on Earth is to prepare for life in Heaven, and that preparation involves acquiring spiritual qualities we will need in Heaven.

“The wisdom of the appearance of the spirit in the body is this: the human spirit is a Divine Trust, and it must traverse all conditions; for its passage and movement through the conditions of existence will be the means of its acquiring perfections. So, when a man travels and passes through different regions and numerous countries with system and method, it is certainly a means of his acquiring perfection; for he will see places, scenes, and countries, from which he will discover the conditions and states of other nations. He will thus become acquainted with the geography of countries, and their wonders and arts; he will familiarize himself with the habits, customs, and usages of peoples; he will see the civilization and progress of the epoch; he will become aware of the policy of governments, and the power and capacity of each country. It is the same when the human spirit passes through the conditions of existence: it will become the possessor of each degree and station. Even in the condition of the body it will surely acquire perfections.”​

To continue reading: THE SPIRIT IN THE BODY
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
When someone tries really hard to say they know the facts about something they really don't know, we know that person has lost touch with reality. The only reality in their mind, is what they believe.
I rest my case.
This isn't even a point worth responding to, of all the issues I raised you decide to go with the most meaningless issue?

I will respond, it's not hard to point out why this is nonsense.

"When someone tries really hard to say they know the facts about something they really don't know,"

The facts that are known are not hard to understand. One of those facts are, we don't know his sources. I led with that.
There are theories on his sources, which I touched on and you called that "losing touch with reality". So when you stop following apologetics crank and actually follow history you have lost touch with reality?

Two scholars speculating he got his information from Christians -

" Charles Guignebert argued that "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[59] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians"

The other theories are:

"he may have used official sources from a Roman archive in this case; "

"Tacitus was also likely to have had access to official Roman documents of the time and did not need other sources."

In which case Roman archives and official Roman documents said Christianity was a most mischievous superstition.


The point here is Tacitus is learning the information from a source. He wasn't there, it isn't confirmation of anything except that some information about Christianity could be aquired at that time. Unless you want to say it's accurate first hand information, then we have first hand account that Christianity is a most mischievous superstition.

Do you have anything of value to add because this is really a non-issue.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Gee that's funny because you were all "Tacitus is the greatest Roman historian of the time"....???

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...orical-evidence-for-jesus.269836/post-8149670
A proper methodology includes looking at ALL evidence. External and internal. If outside sources demonstrate your beliefs are untrue then you have to answer to that or accept your beliefs may be untrue.
Now, there is NO internal evidence that "destroys" secular sources. In fact internal evidence such as literary styles, comparative mythology and more, suggest we can demonstrate these are religious mythologies just as the Quran and Hindu scripture are.

No secular source has ever been destroyed. That is the reason people who understand the evidence and are not in some apologist denial say religion. is a faith based belief.



https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...orical-evidence-for-jesus.269836/post-8149670
You know why it didn't end?
Because you imagined you had something, so you made a go at it, by trying a flimsy argument - Of course you don't know any Christians who trust outside sources. That's because the outside sources say Jesus never existed.
Not all of them. Many historical scholars say Jesus was a human Rabbi who was later mythicized into a Hellenistic dying/rising savior demigod after being influenced by Persian religion and then Greek religion. Clearly Hellenism was a trend only in the nations occupied by Greeks.
The NT theology is similar to all of these religions. Each being it's own take on the basic legends.


Until the truth hit you in the face, stopping you cold in your tracks. :D
Even critics admit that.
They show that they are not biased. You, on the other hand...

No they do not. The 3 scholars sourced in the Wiki quote are all theologians or NT scholars. Not historical scholars.
In fact your argument has moved into fallacy territory at this point.
Let's see what an actual historian says about th esources and what your fallacy is -

"By the time I produced OHJ, I found that in the end it doesn’t matter whether the passage in Tacitus is authentic or not. It still adds no probability to the historicity of Jesus, as it evinces no awareness of any independent sources. In all probability, in fact, Tacitus would have only gotten his information (directly or indirectly) from Christians, who took it in turn from the Gospels. It therefore only evinces the Gospels were circulating in the early 2nd century, which we already knew. This does nothing to corroborate anything in those Gospels. It doesn’t even support the conclusion that Christians in the 60s A.D. were preaching that version of the creed; as Tacitus does not say he learned that fact from any source of that period, rather than from Christians of this own time. And unknowns, remain unknowns. To argue otherwise is ad ignorantiam."


Now about Bart Ehrman, NT historian -
"
QUESTION:

Why is Tacitus a reliable source for his mention of Christus and his execution by Pontius Pilate?

RESPONSE:

As a Roman historian, Tacitus did not have any Christian biases in his discussion of the persecution of Christians by Nero in 64 CE, as recounted in his multi-volume work, the Annals of Rome (book 15). He was reporting what was widely known, at least to those who knew anything about it. It seems unlikely that he had Christian sources of information for his account (he almost certainly was not interviewing Christians for information); his account is as an outsider, who considers Christians to represent a foul and obnoxious superstition involving a crucified criminal..."

An outsider. All of the Gospels were out and the story was known. They may have herad it from someone who knew it from the Gospels. At any rate, it's not known. Like I started with.
Problem is right above, right up there in your words you make a fallacious wildly speculative statement as if it's true. Who has truly lost grip on reality? Passages that "corroborate portions of the NT..."?????? That is truly a fantasy.
We don't know.
Even if Jesus was executed by PP in this way, this doesn't say anything about the NT except it's still a religious mythology put onto a human Rabbi who was causing trouble with Rome because he was a revolutionary.

OR, someone was just repeating made-up stories from the Gospels.

Because guess what else Tacitus talks about? The movements of OTHER GODS.


"Tacitus offers an account of the movement of the god Sarapis from the city of Sinope to Alexandria at Histories 4.83–84 as part of an extended discussion of the god’s origins."

"Tacitus’ account of how the god Sarapis entered Ptolemaic Egypt (Hist. 4.83–84) has largely escaped close examination in terms of its connection to Roman religious thought.[1] In it, however, he articulates an understanding of the relationship between tutelary deities and the cities they protect that reflects a theological mindset distinctly rooted in Roman religio.[2]"



Oh WOW, Sarapis was real also!!!


Then you started grabbing all all sorts of things, even building strawman, in an attempt to ignore the reality. Lol
Finally, you ran away from the questions, breathing a sigh of relief that you and @joelr don't have to answer why in this case, the majority of scholars don't count... when at all other times, they do. :)
What question? I'll answer any question. Do you want to know about the God Sarapis? Tacitus details his movements.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You think the story of Osiris resembles that of a normal human with a handful of magic bits attached? Dionysus? Inanna?
What original source Osiris are you reading? What is important is the similarities are the same. Osiris underwent suffering literally called a "passion", an actual death and resurrection, sharing the salvation the god had achieved.

All of the mystery religions centered on a central savior deity, always the son/daughter of a God and the suffering procured salvation for all who participated in the cult. Dominion over death is the theme. This is all from Greek Hellenism.

Inanna is an older Mesopotamian deity more similar to Yahweh but did have a death/resurrection.



Can't say I agree with you there.

On the other hand Jesus, Muhammad, Pythagoras, Augustus, etc do resemble normal humans with magic bits attached to them.
Again, you are missing the point of a clear religious trend, "Every dying-and-rising god is different. Every death is different. Every resurrection is different. All irrelevant. The commonality is that there is a death and a resurrection. Everything else is a mixture of syncretized ideas from the borrowing and borrowed cultures, to produce a new and unique god and myth. "


Jesus was written about far sooner than the other mythical gods, and seems far closer to a normal human than they are.
This is the same point. So was Romulus the fictive founder of Rome with magic powers. Yes he was also mortal.

"Romulus was another widely-known, pre-Christian resurrected god. Not a personal savior, so far as we know, but a national one, in his exalted form named Qurinus. According to ancient sources this demigod was a pre-existent divine being who became incarnate in order to establish a Kingdom, conceiving a body for himself within the womb of a virgin (possibly by sexual means; it’s unclear), who was murdered by the Roman Senate (the Roman equivalent of the Sanhedrin), after which his corpse vanishes, the sun goes out, and people flee in fear and mourn his death; then he returns to earth alive again, resurrected in a new divine body, to preach his gospel to the disciple Proculus before departing to rule from on high. By some accounts Romulus ascended directly to heaven and his mortal body burned away in the sky; but either way, his mortal body dies (“I have finished my mortal life,” he tells Proculus, Dionysius says), and he returns to preach in an immortal body, then ascends to heaven, just like Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:35-50). Our fullest account comes from Plutarch (Life of Romulus 27-28), writing at the end of the 1st century A.D. But Romulus’s death and return to life are attested in numerous pre-Christian sources (Cicero, Laws 1.3 & Republic 2.10; Livy 1.16; Ovid, Fasti 2.491-512 and Metamorphoses 14.805-51; and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 2.63.3-4)."





This is the problem with trying to shoehorn things into made up categories, it is a highly subjective activity and often distorts more than it enlightens.
You haven't presented any evidence anything is being shoehorn and the categories are made up. You are just saying it?
Hellenistic savior demigods is not a made up category? That is just wrong.

It can be used as evidence though, which is what I was doing,
Ok, then it's evidence for a non-apostolic Christian. That isn't the Greek word Paul uses for biological birth. He called them "brethen" and every time he specifically distinguishes apostles from non-apostolic Christians he uses the full title for a member of the Christian congregation, Brother of the Lord. There are more parts to the argument.
You haven't made an argument.





And a better argument can be made that Paul and Josephus are referring to an actual brother

I'm seeing a theme here. You are just saying stuff now, you haven't replied to any points or arguments. Now you do it again. Last post I gave a few reasons, including some Greek, yet you ignore that and give zero reasons.

The 2 times Paul uses the phrase "brother in the Lord" he is using it to distinguish between between apostolic and non-apostolic Christians.
The latest scholarship on this that also concludes Paul is making a distinction between apostolic/non-apostolic Christians:


L. Paul Trudinger, ‘[Heteron de tōn apostolōn ouk eidon, ei mē iakōbon]: A Note on Galatians I 19’, Novum Testamentum 17 (July 1975), pp. 200-202.

George Howard, ‘Was James an Apostle? A Reflection on a New Proposal for Gal. I 19’, Novum Testamentum 19 (January 1977), pp. 63-64.

Hans Dieter Betz, Galatians: A Commentary on Paul’s Letter to the Churches in Galatia (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1979), p. 78.


Which has as much rigour as me saying I put the chances as 90%+
It's a 700 page, peer-reviewed monograph, 50% of it is sources. If you hand wave academia and the field that bad then you are just a fundamentalist who has no interest in what is true but rather what you want to be true.



"If what I believe is true and my subjectively assigned probabilities are correct, then…”
Yes but anyone is free to assess the evidence and decide. Lataster released a peer-reviewed book after this going over the evidence and conclusions Carrier made and finds them to be probable and reasonable.

This is like saying evolution is false before reading Darwin, you have no argument.


You were the one who said it wasn't evidence, you have now clarified that meant it wasn't "definitive" evidence which had already been noted multiple times anyway.
Carrier does not include the brothers statement as a hit for mythicism. Since ultimately we cannot know, despite the evidence pointing to that, it isn't used in the final assessment on the odds for mythicism.





Paul, Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus.
Paul,
Gospels - Mark uses Paul and other fiction to construct a Hellenistic savior myth. All gospels use Mark.
Josephus has been dealt with and isn't independent at all, also is probably a forgery. The Testimonium Flavianum is a forgery and the James reference isn't about Jesus.
The latest scholarship is discussed here:






 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You are also missing the point.

Which of those could be explained as a normal human who had some magic bits attached to their life and were written about in near contemporary sources?

The reference class you use matters.

You seem to think that Carrier is simply identifying some objective category that Jesus obviously belongs to and that is the only category that we could legitimately use.
He did, I provided an extensive list of features found on these demigods. You are just ignoring it.

The Greek school were Mark came from was pulling from Odyssey, Romulus, Jesus Ben Annias, the OT , and Hellenistic saviors are a class.





"Dying and rising gods" are not some natural kind, but a contested and subjective category that may or may not be a meaningful one to use.
They share 4 trend in Hellenistic religion:

- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.


- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.


- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.


- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born in


personal savior deities


- All saviors


- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)


- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon


- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers


- all have stories set on earth


- none actually existed


- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?


Christianity is the syncretic blend of Jewish and Pagan/Greek ideas:

Pagan /Jewish element, Judea-Pagan Syncretism


Pagan - Savior son of God


Jewish - Messianic resurrection cult


Pagan - Undergoes ordeal by which he obtains victory over death


Jewish - based on blood atonement theology (substitutionary sacrifice)


Pagan - which he shares with those initiated into his cult for individual salvation


Jewish - adapting Passover and Yom Kippur


Pagan - in a universal brotherhood


Jewish - first by circumsision, then without


Pagan - through a baptismal invitation and communal meal


Jewish - through a baptismal invitation and communal meal






"Purported humans who were written about in near contemporary sources but have some magical characteristics" is also a category that Jesus could belong to. It is also a less contested and subjective category.

If we choose the first category, we will get a very different probability to the second category.

And that is not to mention the entire question of how meaningful any numerical probability is for a unique event with incomplete data that relies entirely on highly subjective interpretations.


The second group is well established. Again, you haven't read any material, lectures, media and are completely unaware. That doesn't mean it isn't an established class of myth.
Where does the 3 to one come from? If you are going to act like you are the only person who can actually read Carrier's work, at least try to be accurate.
That is a fiction you made up. I actually suggested you educate yourself further before things got weird, now they are weird.
He gives 3 to 1 odds based on all evidence in favor of mythicism vs historicity.






It is significantly based on using the reference class of "Rank-Raglan hero"
ALthough Jesus scores almost a perfect score on the RR mythotype in Mark, it's not based on this . Someone who reviewed the book but didn't read it (there are many) may have said that and you found it.


As explained, the applicability of this reference class is highly questionable.

No, you didn't explain. It uses characters from ancient Greek myths and even older.

  1. Mother is a royal virgin
  2. Father is a king
  3. Father often a near relative to mother
  4. Unusual conception
  5. Hero reputed to be son of god
  6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
  7. Hero spirited away as a child
  8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
  9. No details of childhood
  10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
  11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
  12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
  13. Becomes king
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
  15. He prescribes laws
  16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
  17. Driven from throne and city
  18. Meets with mysterious death
  19. Often at the top of a hill
  20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
  21. His body is not buried
  22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

When Raglan's 22 point outline is used, a Hero's tradition is considered more likely to be mythical the more of these traits they hold (a point is added per trait). Raglan himself scored the following Heroes: Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points), Dionysos (19 points), Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points), Joseph (12 points), Moses (20 points), Elijah (9 points), Watu Gunung (18 points), Nyikang (14 points), Sigurd (11 points), Llew Llawgyffes (17 points), King Arthur (19 points), Robin Hood (13 points), and Alexander the Great (7 points).[2]

Jesus - 19
Using a credentialist argument to support a fringe theory is pretty silly.

No I'm asking where you find the authority to hand wave scholarship. Without sources, points, arguments....?







Just taking Carrier’s word for it does save you time no doubt.
Again, ignore the 700 pg monograph, ignore Latasters work, ignore the Hellenistic trend, ignore arguments and sources and evidence and just make claims? That's great if that makes you happy but I am interested in what is true.




Everything I said is common scholarly opinion, you seem to think Richard Carrier disagreeing with it negates any competing views.

No, not everything. Josephus? You haven't given one single source? Again, you make stuff up pretty easily. You seem to only be able to put false words on me. Where did I say it negates competing views, I said many of the views turn out to be assumptions that when looked into they don't hold up.
It's alright, I can read Carrier's books and blog posts myself.
The extent to which you care about what is true is your choice.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Right. So you'll never hear the Christian say, we don't know, probably, likely... like these atheists are forced to, if they don't want to look like fools. :D
To say they know, when the documents the use say otherwise, makes them look foolish, so they squeeze in the "likely" and "probably"... reluctantly. ;)

On the other hand...
(Romans 1:18-20) 18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

No maybes about it. :)
Wow, you couldn't help it. Leave it to a fundamentalist to completely destroy themself, all you have to do is wait.
After all that pretending at sources, historical truth, even a logical methodology to understand something true in historical writings, ....then.........how you truly measure what is true is revealed:

IT'S TRUE BECAUSE IT SAYS IT'S TRUE! (only in the book I say)

unbelievable.

Yes the Quran and EVERY religion says the same, directly from their God as well, in the fiction made by men, just like the NT. Or Paul pretending at revelations.


Surah 34: Saba
And [yet,] those who are bent on denying the truth do say, “We shall never believe in this Qur’an, and neither in whatever there still remains of earlier revelations!” But if thou couldst only see [how it will be on Judgment Day,] when these evildoers shall be made to stand before their Sustainer, hurling reproaches back and forth at one another! Those [of them] who had been weak [on earth] will say unto those who had gloried in their arrogance: “Had it not been for you, we would certainly have been believers!”


No maybes here either?!? They are JUST AS POSITIVE that their scripture is words from God.




And, Hinduism, same ideas, truth:

Mundaka Upanishad (3.1.5) emphasizes the importance of truth in spiritual practice and liberation by stating that the Self is attained by truth, austerity, right knowledge, and continuous practice of celibacy. Truth is imperative for right knowledge, self-purification, and liberation. The next verse (3.1.6), which is stated below, emphatically declares that truth alone triumphs (satyameva jayate), and only by truth one can go by the path of gods to the world of immortality, the supreme treasure of truth.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
I actually asked what percent of fact, allowing for
that's a hard question.

You know the joke about G Washington' s hatchet?

( the one used to cut down the cherry tree)

"This is his hatchet, but the handle has been replacedccd
three times, and the head twice"

I don't believe any jesus*- story is any more
original than that.

* name replaced once

I have no idea the percentage of facts present, but as a historical figure, I'm fairly certain that much is true. So are many of the teachings, but again that's a matter of perspective and how we relate to them, so they can be quite irrelevant to us at times too. The crux I would think is in the plea for truth. If not a plea, then an urgent call for it, hence my truth matters quote. Pretend you're a movie director and you're responsible for creating a scene taken from the bible. The woman about to be stoned for adultery for example. What were the details attached, and how did it all play out in real life? Was Jesus the gentle soul we hear so much about, or the rebel antagonist the authorities wanted dead? Was he soft spoken or imposing as he drew the line in the dirt? That's my practical approach.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I have no idea the percentage of facts present, but as a historical figure, I'm fairly certain that much is true. So are many of the teachings, but again that's a matter of perspective and how we relate to them, so they can be quite irrelevant to us at times too. The crux I would think is in the plea for truth. If not a plea, then an urgent call for it, hence my truth matters quote. Pretend you're a movie director and you're responsible for creating a scene taken from the bible. The woman about to be stoned for adultery for example. What were the details attached, and how did it all play out in real life? Was Jesus the gentle soul we hear so much about, or the rebel antagonist the authorities wanted dead? Was he soft spoken or imposing as he drew the line in the dirt? That's my practical approach.
What did you think of Aslan' s book. "ZEALOT"?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll tell you what I've already told you - that doesn't speak to me all. You are addressing a problem I don't have. I don't hate anybody, and when I have in the past, it's ben brief - a few days to weeks at most - and following some egregious event. That's a feeling I wouldn't want to harbor, or even a lesser version of some dysphoric feeling, but it's not an issue. It evaporates away effortlessly.
That's fantastic you have this natural ability. I think for most people it's the opposite. They have to consciously work on overcoming nursing their wounds, harboring resentments, holding grudges, wanting to payback others for harms done, feeding hatred, and so forth.

So what came to mind immediately for me was this verse. "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

What that last phrase "sinners to repentance" can legitimately be heard as, stripping away all that religious baggage such language has accumulated, as "those who are making errors, or doing it wrong, to modify and correct their behaviors". That's really what it means ultimately.

Now, while you have no need for guidance or a teacher, or a physician or a therapist to help give you better tools in order to have a more healthy mind and body and emotional states, others are not so gifted by nature. Most people need help from time to time, and some more than others. Some need a therapist. Some need a doctor. Some need a teacher.

In my experience, often times it's the ego that gets in our way by assuming we have everything under control. I have found the best way towards the fastest growth is to admit a need and be open to the knowledge of others. Simply getting by and find ways to "deal with it", is not actually living free of it. Coping mechanisms is not really freedom, in my experience.

So you keep saying. I've told you that without concrete specifics, these words mean nothing to further your case.
I still don't see how it doesn't. Where there is smoke there's fire. One doesn't have to identify the match that started the blaze and tell you specifics about its make and model and original store it was purchased from, in order to know that there was a flammable source. Isn't that a bit of a red herring, a distraction to say unless you can tell me specifics if it was a wooded match or a cardboard match, why should I accept that the fire happened?

But that said however, I suppose we can piece together most likely specifics things we can safely assume to have been the reality on the ground about Jesus as a person. He was a teacher who taught in parables. That's a safe assumption. Those parables drew a lot of attention, both positive and negative. Therefore, he was an impactful speaker. He was targeted for execution by the Roman government, so they saw his words and the followers he garnered around himself to be a threat to Roman order, so they killed him.

These alone are some safe specifics to assume, backed up by what we know from multiple sources, through critical secular scholarship, not theologies or faith-based views of Jesus.

Now, as I said from the outset, from this is entirely safe to see that whatever the specifics of what he said or did was actual history or stories made up about him, or teachings attributed to him, clearly his person created a large enough stir in the pot that it both started a major movement in his name, and got himself killed over it. That equals someone beyond just an ordinary person, or "extraordinary".

Nobody I know loves their enemies, and none are the worst off for their indifference to them.
I really think your understanding of what love means here in this context is what is the source of your own confusion of that saying. I'll use another word to say the same meaning. "Hold your compassion in your heart to those who have wronged you". That's what love is. Compassion.

That's what is the cornerstone teaching of all Buddhist practices, to cultivate compassion, or "love". "Don't hold hatred in your heart toward your enemies, but instead replace that with compassion." Does that help make more sense to you? I think you are assuming loving them, means invite them into your inner circle and trust them. No, it does not mean trust them.
Who are you posting to? My enemies have no power over me. They might if I felt obliged to love them.
Do you not understand that when you, or I should say most everyone else alive holds resentments or allows the actions of others to control their own emotions and actions, that that is in fact giving your power over to them? While someone may insult you once, when you stew over it and resent them, and relive that experience of injury over and over again, you are in fact giving them all the power. You let them inside.

Now that you seem to not have that problem, I would argue most everyone else does. Enough so that teachings abound in all the major religions admonishing us to let go of those negativities because of how damaging they are to our spiritual well being. You see it in Hinduism, in Buddhism, and in the teachings of Jesus, using different language and words and style, to all teach the exact same principle as a guide to a common human malady.

Footnote, unless someone has specifically done work around this, having become aware of this and consciously acknowledged it and reprogrammed themselves to not do it, for those who say that they've never done this themselves, I'd say one of two possibilities:

They were born with such a rare personality that they were forgiving by nature, born with a deep sense of compassion, like a reincarnated bodhisattva or saint; or they are repressing these things into the shadows of their own psyches. In which case, they are not truly free at all, as it will start manifesting itself in other negative ways, such as addictions, various neuroses, rage outbursts, and so forth.

So it's either born free of this natural tendency, repression of angers, or having faced the disease and done work on it to correct it, which typically comes by understanding the teachings of others and following guidelines and advice. "Those who are not sick do not need a physician". But one would argue, how many really aren't sick? How many are truly born with such a disposition they never become ill like the rest of us?
Once again, who are you posting to? Do you not understand what not harboring hatred means?
I most certainly do. I've been a master of harboring resentments and ruminations my whole life. :)
You want to know who hates perceived enemies? Atheophobic Christians (not you). The antipathy is palpable and manifests with language like attack, and statements about how immoral atheists are.
Of course, yes, they are full of hatred, and which is why I see them as "whitewashed tombs", all clean and white and righteous on the outside, but full of hatred and 'sin' on the inside. They deceive themselves that they are "saved" when they in fact are only cleaning the outside of the cup.

True healing happens within, and then the outside will follow the inside. They will have compassion towards everyone, their enemies as well, because they have Love as their ground and center, from which all external actions flow.

That is the very core and essence of my awareness and understanding of how this works, and what all these teachings in all the major religions, Christianity included are pointing towards.
Why don't you send this message to them?
I try to. God knows, Jesus tried to too. :)
Don't ask them to love atheists. They don't and they can't, but they might be able to join the critical thinkers and stop hating those who disagree with them.
They should love everyone. And they can't, not because they aren't critical thinkers, but because they hold onto negative energies and a desire to control others, instead of embracing love, forgiveness and letting go. All of these are the core, and 'critical thinking' cannot truly happen if the heart is a mess.

The heart, or the 'soul' in us, has to first have Compassion as the foundation of thought, which will in fact be able to be clear and accurate without the poison of negativities clouding thoughts, or our judgments. You cannot have clear reason, if the heart if full of hate. It cannot be done.
Buddha sounds more like me than he does Jesus there. That is not an admonition to love this person or even to interact with them, which is already my policy.
It is the same thing. As I pointed out above, I think you misapply love to mean trusting others. It doesn't mean that. It simply means Compassion. That is something the Dalai Lama teaches daily. He is known as the avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of Compassion. That's what Jesus taught. That's why Buddhist recognize the teachings of Jesus.
I'm not interested in the similarities.
The Buddhists in that video are. The Buddhists I know are.

Fun fact here, why I have the perception of Christian teachings I have is in fact largely due to being exposed to the teachings of Buddhism. In fact, there is a book, which I've never read, that some priest wrote that the title alone resonated with me. "Without Buddha I Could Not be a Christian"

Now, while I do not identify myself as any one religion, the closest I might come in the right mood would be to say what I came up with is a "Dharmically informed Christian". But in reality, I see myself as trans-religious, meaning I see all religions as pointing to the same Goal, and all the rest is simple language and symbols and paths to all point to the same Realization. That includes being trans-theist, trans-atheist, and transhumanist, in the sense that these are all simply paths.

It is just that Christian language is my native symbolic language because of my training. So I favor it. That's all. I don't like to say I am a Christian, but at the same time, I'm not-not a Christian either. I like to tease saying, I'm the same religion God is. What religion is that? Does God have a religion? Or is it more along the lines of "I am all religions, and I am none"?

What sums me up best is from this quote from the 13th century Zen poet, "Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at its peak we all gaze at the single bright moon", but I favor the Christian language because of my previous training. But it hardly exclusive.

P.S. I just found that book I referenced in the library for e-reader. So I'm getting it today to finally read it and see what he has to say. I love the title of it! :)
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now, while you have no need for guidance or a teacher, or a physician or a therapist to help give you better tools in order to have a more healthy mind and body and emotional states, others are not so gifted by nature. Most people need help from time to time, and some more than others. Some need a therapist. Some need a doctor. Some need a teacher.
What does this have to do with whether Jesus' life was exemplary or even unusual? You've been implying that that life was so impressive, a new religion was formed because of it. I say that the religion grew because first Paul found value in it making it large enough to come to the Romans' attention, and then later, Constantine found value in it. You haven't rebutted that. Also, Christians call Jesus' life exemplary, so much so that many define Christian as being Christlike, but why? People dedicating their lives telling others to be pious without stealing from them - i.e., selflessly - are a dime a dozen.

And as I've told you, virtually everybody I know lives a life as or more exemplary than that one. They're also kind, polite, share, volunteer, are constructive and supportive of others and the community, don't steal, don't lose their tempers, pay their bills, obey the law, and the like. If they weren't, they wouldn't be acquaintances. Why? Because even if only 5% of people match that description, that's still hundreds or thousands of the people living around me, from whom I have cultivated my social circle. Frankly, Jesus would have no place there. Too preachy and judgmental, not to mention detached from reality and uninterested in much that matters to me.
I have found the best way towards the fastest growth is to admit a need and be open to the knowledge of others.
But you need to have knowledge yourself first to be discerning regarding who can be trusted, and a means of evaluating what you are told. My fastest growth came between ages 30 and 40, and my education then was almost all reading books alone at home - books on philosophy, history, belief systems, and some mathematics (infinity, Hofstadter, Penrose) and science I missed in my formal education (cosmology, astronomy, geology, quantum science). But this is the only kind of thing I've gone to others for.
Simply getting by and find ways to "deal with it", is not actually living free of it. Coping mechanisms is not really freedom, in my experience.
Finding ways to adapt to life's situations is not "simply getting by," and yes, coping mechanisms can free one.
He was a teacher who taught in parables. That's a safe assumption. Those parables drew a lot of attention, both positive and negative. Therefore, he was an impactful speaker.
I don't know that Jesus was an impactful speaker in the sense of being exemplary or attracting followers. We learn about a dozen devotees doing that during his lifetime. The Grateful Dead had thousands of people following them from venue to venue to hear their message and imbibe their culture and expressed values. I was one. Jerry Garcia was exemplary, and attracted people because of who he was. There are still Deadheads today almost thirty years after Jerry's death:

1686498920360.png


Does anything Jesus said compare to this? This is spirituality without spirits (gods):

Reach out your hand, if your cup be empty
If your cup is full, may it be again
Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of men
There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go, no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone

Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow

You who choose to lead must follow
But if you fall you fall alone
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home

He was targeted for execution by the Roman government, so they saw his words and the followers he garnered around himself to be a threat to Roman order, so they killed him.
This is an endorsement of his impact? How many others were executed that day and that year? They had the same impact - offending the Romans - and got the same treatment.
I really think your understanding of what love means here in this context is what is the source of your own confusion of that saying. I'll use another word to say the same meaning. "Hold your compassion in your heart to those who have wronged you". That's what love is. Compassion.
I know what love is. And I know the limits of my ability to express love, which consumes scarce resources including time when manifest. I also know who is worthy of that love and who is not. We recently redirected a monthly contribution from a local dog shelter to another one because of administrative difficulties with the one. And when it comes to enemies, move along. My time and other resources aren't for them. You keep referring to trust when discussing love, and yes, I do not trust an enemy (nor a stranger), but that is not why I don't express love to enemies. I do, however, express love to strangers with charitable donations of time and money, but that goes to them, not enemies.
I've been a master of harboring resentments and ruminations my whole life.
Sorry to hear that. Perhaps it explains why you feel that forgiveness is important to you. It lack is accompanied by perpetual dysphoria until you forgive. But that's not an issue for me. Forgiveness comes automatically and quickly where it is deserved, and not at all in other cases, but there is no dysphoria for me if I continue avoiding others I disesteem. To expand on when forgiveness is deserved, it is only in the presence of remorse, which is more than regret. The latter can be purely selfish, as in regretting that things didn't turn out as well as you had hoped and looking for a do-over. Remorse always comes quickly following an unintended offense, and sounds like remorse.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
  1. Mother is a royal virgin
  2. Father is a king
  3. Father often a near relative to mother
  4. Unusual conception
  5. Hero reputed to be son of god
  6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
  7. Hero spirited away as a child
  8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
  9. No details of childhood
  10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
  11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
  12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
  13. Becomes king
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
  15. He prescribes laws
  16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
  17. Driven from throne and city
  18. Meets with mysterious death
  19. Often at the top of a hill
  20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
  21. His body is not buried
  22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
Jesus - 19? No way.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
You were once a believer, weren't you? Speaking for myself as a former Christian who liberated herself and detoxed from years of Christian indoctrination, I can say with absolute certainty that realizing and acknowledging that your Christian beliefs are bogus and incompatible with the reality of life can have a profound negative effect on your emotions. To be honest, the guilt, shame, fear, and confusion that go along with this transitional time from believer to unbeliever can mess with your head. I'm not sure I would have survived the emotional turmoil I went through if it hadn't been for my husband's support.
God essentially helped me separate the religion from the divine. My religion may have been false but the divine is ever present, even if it’s not like I was taught.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The main reason we are here on Earth is to prepare for life in Heaven, and that preparation involves acquiring spiritual qualities we will need in Heaven..............
The main reason angels are in Heaven is to prepare for life in _______________
I find the main reason why we are here on Earth is to cultivate Earth and care for animal life forever - Genesis 1:28
Adam's disobedience to Gen. 2:17 introduced sickness and death on Earth.
Jesus obedience is going to take away sickness and death on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come! ( Not us go to Jesus )
Come and bring ' healing' (health) to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
Healing and health on Earth as described in Isaiah's 35th chapter
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Bible has a story in it.
All that's demonstrated is that some people
will believe anything.
I find MOST people will believe anything because FEW people choose to follow what Jesus taught.
Jesus even forewarned us that MANY would even 'come in his name' but prove false to Jesus - Matthew chapter 7

Yup, the Bible has a story in it.
Eden lost to Eden regained.
What Adam lost for us (Eden) Jesus will restore (Eden)
At Jesus' coming Glory Time he will separate humble meek people to live to enjoy a beautiful paradisical Earth as the original Garden of Eden was.
- Matthew 25:31-34,37
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
I would contend that there's actually more than one Jesus. No, I don't mean that there are two or more of him, but the myth of Jesus has been apparent in many societies within other cultures. Some Confucians believe that Confucius was miraculously conceived, in fact. I hear a lot of Christians say, "we are all sons and daughters of God" and at the same time say, "Jesus is the Son of God." Well, which one is it? Whenever I answer the Select Smart Religion quiz I always check the option, "All are equally Incarnations because God is all and all are God (or God is in all)" on question two.

I don't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin but at the same time I find it miraculous that humans exist at all considering how harsh conditions can get here on Earth. For most of Earth's history we didn't. And the fact is, there's a lot of people out there right now who are delusional and think they are the Second Coming or the anti-Christ. The myth of Christ is popular among those who want to appear more important than they actually are. The only difference between Christ and the people claiming to be him is people actually believe in Christ. Otherwise he would have just appeared to be a false idol, just like all the others.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
This isn't even a point worth responding to, of all the issues I raised you decide to go with the most meaningless issue?

I will respond, it's not hard to point out why this is nonsense.

"When someone tries really hard to say they know the facts about something they really don't know,"

The facts that are known are not hard to understand. One of those facts are, we don't know his sources. I led with that.
There are theories on his sources, which I touched on and you called that "losing touch with reality". So when you stop following apologetics crank and actually follow history you have lost touch with reality?

Two scholars speculating he got his information from Christians -

" Charles Guignebert argued that "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[59] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians"

The other theories are:

"he may have used official sources from a Roman archive in this case; "

"Tacitus was also likely to have had access to official Roman documents of the time and did not need other sources."

In which case Roman archives and official Roman documents said Christianity was a most mischievous superstition.


The point here is Tacitus is learning the information from a source. He wasn't there, it isn't confirmation of anything except that some information about Christianity could be aquired at that time. Unless you want to say it's accurate first hand information, then we have first hand account that Christianity is a most mischievous superstition.

Do you have anything of value to add because this is really a non-issue.
What I said was of value, but I understand why you don't like it.
So, you don't know that Tacitus got his information quote from a Christian who bought into the stories unquote
That sounds pretty valuable to me.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The main reason angels are in Heaven is to prepare for life in _______________
For life in__________ .... What is __________ ?
I find the main reason why we are here on Earth is to cultivate Earth and care for animal life forever - Genesis 1:28
That is why we are here physically, but we are not physical beings, we are spiritual beings, so the main reason we are here is to develop spiritual qualities.
Adam's disobedience to Gen. 2:17 introduced sickness and death on Earth.
Adam introduced spiritual death on Earth and Jesus saved us from spiritual death by offering us spiritual life, which is eternal life.

When Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin. Those who acknowledged the cross sacrifice and turned toward Jesus and His teachings were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, and were delivered from the chains of bondage to the material world. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom.
Jesus obedience is going to take away sickness and death on Earth - 1st Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Human obedience to God's teachings and laws is going to take away spiritual death on Earth.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come! ( Not us go to Jesus )
Come and bring ' healing' (health) to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
Jesus is not going to return to Earth. Jesus never promised to return to Earth, not once in the entire NT.
Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.​
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​
Healing and health on Earth as described in Isaiah's 35th chapter
I do not believe that is what Isaiah 35 is about. I believe it is about what would happen when the Christ returned at the end of the age.
I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God, as described in Isaiah 35:2..

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)​
35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.​
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.​
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.​
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.​
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.​
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.​
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.​
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:​
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.​
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Except the Creationists like @Dan From Smithville @exchemist and the likes, right?
I can't speak for @exchemist, but it seems you mean Christians that don't let others tell them what God says or to stop learning or pretend God's creation exists in some sort of stasis and to ignore it or that the Bible is a science and history book. Is that what you mean?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Gee that's funny because you were all "Tacitus is the greatest Roman historian of the time"....???

There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus
I was? Something must be wrong with my brain and eyesight.
Let me double check.

I'm interested in hearing why you reject the majority opinion in this case. Is it something you normally do?
Why are you against their opinions, here?
Tacitus is widely regarded as one of the greatest Roman historians by modern scholars.

I thought so. It's definitely not my brain and eyesight that's the problem.
No wonder your link was off.

That's the beauty of records.
We should be careful about people who come along, and claim they know more than those who actually wrote the thing, knew what they wrote, from where and why.
when people make claims otherwise, we ought to know better than be swayed by their agenda.

A proper methodology includes looking at ALL evidence. External and internal. If outside sources demonstrate your beliefs are untrue then you have to answer to that or accept your beliefs may be untrue.
Now, there is NO internal evidence that "destroys" secular sources. In fact internal evidence such as literary styles, comparative mythology and more, suggest we can demonstrate these are religious mythologies just as the Quran and Hindu scripture are.

No secular source has ever been destroyed. That is the reason people who understand the evidence and are not in some apologist denial say religion. is a faith based belief.
No, but there is.
I don't have that info to hand, but I will try to dig up some for you.


There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

Not all of them. Many historical scholars say Jesus was a human Rabbi who was later mythicized into a Hellenistic dying/rising savior demigod after being influenced by Persian religion and then Greek religion. Clearly Hellenism was a trend only in the nations occupied by Greeks.
The NT theology is similar to all of these religions. Each being it's own take on the basic legends.
Yes. Many conflicting opinions. Yours and @Thrillobyte's morass of truth.

No they do not. The 3 scholars sourced in the Wiki quote are all theologians or NT scholars. Not historical scholars.
In fact your argument has moved into fallacy territory at this point.
Let's see what an actual historian says about th esources and what your fallacy is -

"By the time I produced OHJ, I found that in the end it doesn’t matter whether the passage in Tacitus is authentic or not. It still adds no probability to the historicity of Jesus, as it evinces no awareness of any independent sources. In all probability, in fact, Tacitus would have only gotten his information (directly or indirectly) from Christians, who took it in turn from the Gospels. It therefore only evinces the Gospels were circulating in the early 2nd century, which we already knew. This does nothing to corroborate anything in those Gospels. It doesn’t even support the conclusion that Christians in the 60s A.D. were preaching that version of the creed; as Tacitus does not say he learned that fact from any source of that period, rather than from Christians of this own time. And unknowns, remain unknowns. To argue otherwise is ad ignorantiam."


Now about Bart Ehrman, NT historian -
"
QUESTION:

Why is Tacitus a reliable source for his mention of Christus and his execution by Pontius Pilate?

RESPONSE:

As a Roman historian, Tacitus did not have any Christian biases in his discussion of the persecution of Christians by Nero in 64 CE, as recounted in his multi-volume work, the Annals of Rome (book 15). He was reporting what was widely known, at least to those who knew anything about it. It seems unlikely that he had Christian sources of information for his account (he almost certainly was not interviewing Christians for information); his account is as an outsider, who considers Christians to represent a foul and obnoxious superstition involving a crucified criminal..."

An outsider. All of the Gospels were out and the story was known. They may have herad it from someone who knew it from the Gospels. At any rate, it's not known. Like I started with.
Problem is right above, right up there in your words you make a fallacious wildly speculative statement as if it's true. Who has truly lost grip on reality? Passages that "corroborate portions of the NT..."?????? That is truly a fantasy.
We don't know.
Even if Jesus was executed by PP in this way, this doesn't say anything about the NT except it's still a religious mythology put onto a human Rabbi who was causing trouble with Rome because he was a revolutionary.

OR, someone was just repeating made-up stories from the Gospels.

Because guess what else Tacitus talks about? The movements of OTHER GODS.


"Tacitus offers an account of the movement of the god Sarapis from the city of Sinope to Alexandria at Histories 4.83–84 as part of an extended discussion of the god’s origins."

"Tacitus’ account of how the god Sarapis entered Ptolemaic Egypt (Hist. 4.83–84) has largely escaped close examination in terms of its connection to Roman religious thought.[1] In it, however, he articulates an understanding of the relationship between tutelary deities and the cities they protect that reflects a theological mindset distinctly rooted in Roman religio.[2]"



Oh WOW, Sarapis was real also!!!
Right... A whole mouthful from the infallible.
So the majority of scholars do not consider Tacitus' writing authentic, and genuine?

What question? I'll answer any question. Do you want to know about the God Sarapis? Tacitus details his movements.
That question depends on your answer to the question above, so I'll have to wait and see how you answer.
 
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