There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[Twilight Hue]

I guess some people actually feel that to meet Jesus you have to physically see him.
Jesus stopped Paul on his way to Damascus and commissioned him.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 9:1-22 - New King James Version .

Making Paul a false apostle in Bible lore.


Matthew 24:23

"At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it".

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess some people actually feel that to meet Jesus you have to physically see him.
Jesus stopped Paul on his way to Damascus and commissioned him.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 9:1-22 - New King James Version .

That was a vision. There is another term for that: hallucination.

 

[Thrillobyte]

Yes, we are the clay and we 'the clay' presents oneself to the Potter. (Pharaoh would Not let himself be molded or formed in righteousness - Romans 9:17)
The Potter does Not force the clay to be a good lump of workable clay. - Romans 9:18 B
( like Pharaoh for example who hardened his own heart and became un-moldable clay - Exodus 8:32 )
The 10 plagues were giving Pharaoh enough rope, so to speak, for Pharaoh to work out the wickedness in his hardened heart.
Righteous clay is the work of God's handiwork - Isaiah 64:8
Besides those who will have a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10; - Jesus has 'other sheep' Ephesians 3:6; Romans 9:25-26.

Please note that biblical hell is Not destruction.
Dead Jesus was Not destroyed in hell because bilblical hell is just the temporary grave for the sleeping dead - Acts 2:27; John 11:11-14.
Temporary grave until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for 1,000 years - 1st. Cor. 15:24-26
KJV wrongly translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
The wicked will simply be gone forever ( Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35; 145:20 )

So, God chooses who are resurrected to heavenly life like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18
As for the majority of mankind they can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth when there will be No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8

URAV, I don't know where you got this interpretation but it's just only one among maybe a thousand different interpretations of this troublesome passage that tries to whitewash God of the ugly things Paul says God is going to do. Instead of going into the Millennium and Jesus in hell and Pharaoh and Resurrection Day and Luke and Daniel just to muddy the water, just read the words for what they say:

God created some vessels for heaven and he created some vessels for destruction. He intends to redeem the honorable vessels and he intends to damn the dishonorable ones so they won't be saved because he doesn't intend them to be saved. That's what the passage says in black and white. Calvin had it right all along.

 

[Trailblazer]

Beats me. All I know is Matthew 23:9 says:

"Do not call anyone on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is in heaven."

That's pretty explicit.

I thought you dropped out of Christianity. If so, why cite the Bible?
Do you really believe that God is a man, a Sky-Daddy? Maybe you should have remained a Christian.

Baha'is do not refer to God as the Father, since God is clearly not a man.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:​

​

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]​

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith​

What do the Baháʼís call their God?

The Baháʼí scriptures refer to God by various titles and attributes, such as Almighty, All-Powerful, All-Wise, Incomparable, Gracious, Helper, All-Glorious, Omniscient and All-Loving. Bahá'is believe the greatest of all the names of God is "All-Glorious" or Bahá in Arabic.​

God in the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia​

 

[Trailblazer]

Why doesn't God answer prayers? Answer: because he either doesn't exist or if he does he doesn't give a damn about us.

God hears all our prayers and God answers some of them in the sense that we get what we asked for, but God does not give us everything we ask for.
Why would God give people everything they ask for? Don't you think that an All-Knowing and All-Wise God has a better handle on what we need than we do?
No human is All-Knowing or All-Wise, so no human can know as much as God. That means that God knows more than we know regarding what is most beneficial for us. This is simple logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you disagree with? The silliest, most trivial things go "viral" on the Internet. Why do you think this wouldn't?

It might go viral, but that does not mean that EVERYONE is going to 'believe' what they read on the internet.
Do you believe everything you read on the internet? I sure hope not.

 

[Trailblazer]

My brain structure won't let me believe.

Your brain structure might let you believe...
I think what you are saying is that what is in your mind won't let you believe, and I understand that since what is in my mind won't let me disbelieve.

 

[Trailblazer]

The perfect answer is that he works in mysterious ways.

God does work in mysterious ways, but that does not explain why God doesn't answer prayers.
I just explained why God does not answer all our prayers in post #225

 

[Thrillobyte]

The perfect answer is that he works in mysterious ways.

So they can find faith in results they like, & dismiss as
unknowable things they dislike....or blame Satan....whom
God created, but doesn't control...but could control...but
chooses against for mysterious reasons.

More like the perfect copout, no offense. When anything in the Bible gets to convoluted or contradictory or, let's face it...ridiculous, then it's always "Ohhhhhh, God works in mysterious ways, don'tcha know? His ways are so much higher than our ways." Well, if God is going to be SO cryptic and mysterious when bad things happen that he leaves us believing that no God worth a damn would be pulling such juvenile stunts, then it's no wonder people are simply dropping him like a hot potato and leaving the faith. "You're too far out, God. Frankly I think you're nuts so I'm turning in my membership card." If that's what God wants, then we might as well just give it to him.

 

[Trailblazer]

As free will beings we have to want to know God to be lead by him. We don’t have to be religious against our will. Plenty of people who were once loyal to God turned their backs on the Universal Father, usually because he didn’t play the role of a Santa Clause like deity!

If you truly want to know God then the evidence will be provided. If you were born of the spirit you would still be just as unable to prove your experience with others.

Suppose God stooped to our demands to prove himself without a doubt, like suddenly appeared in human form to have coffee with us. We chatted for a couple of hours then he left? Going forward you would still need to be lead in spirit and you would be just as unable to prove your experience with God to others.

You are talking logic and reason but don't expect it to stick....
I have been trying that for five years to no avail.

 

[Revoltingest]

God does work in mysterious ways, but that does not explain why God doesn't answer prayers.
I just explained why God does not answer all our prayers in post #225

It's just an answer, not an explanation (IMO).

 

[Revoltingest]

More like the perfect copout, no offense.

I'm not at all offended....yet.

When anything in the Bible gets to convoluted or contradictory or, let's face it...ridiculous, then it's always "Ohhhhhh, God works in mysterious ways, don'tcha know? His ways are so much higher than our ways." Well, if God is going to be SO cryptic and mysterious when bad things happen that he leaves us believing that no God worth a damn would be pulling such juvenile stunts, then it's no wonder people are simply dropping him like a hot potato and leaving the faith. "You're too far out, God. Frankly I think you're nuts so I'm turning in my membership card." If that's what God wants, then we might as well just give it to him.

Nope, still not offended.

 

[Thrillobyte]

A lie repeated remains a lie, albeit a less compelling one.

(I sense a "No True Scotsman" fallacy about to erupt onto the scene. Wait for it ...)​

The outside sources say there is no evidence for the Jesus of the gospels, sorry. Read it for yourself.

“In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references! In other words, there is no non-Christian evidence from the first century of a “historical Jesus.” ” Bart Ehrman

 

[Trailblazer]

His ways are so much higher than our ways.

That is one thing that Christians are right about. How could God's ways NOT be higher than our ways if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise?

Well, if God is going to be SO cryptic and mysterious when bad things happen that he leaves us believing that no God worth a damn would be pulling such juvenile stunts, then it's no wonder people are simply dropping him like a hot potato and leaving the faith. "You're too far out, God. Frankly I think you're nuts so I'm turning in my membership card." If that's what God wants, then we might as well just give it to him.

Although there are some explanations in scripture, we don't always know why 'what we consider bad things' happen since that is not for us to know.
If we are believers we take it on faith that everything that happens is ultimately for our own good, because God wants what is best for us.

Most people who drop out of Christianity don't do so because thye did not get what they wanted from God. They drop out because they finally come to the conclusion that the Christian doctrines make no sense at all and/or they realize that the Bible is not what they thought it was.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The outside sources say there is no evidence for the Jesus of the gospels, sorry. Read it for yourself.

“In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references! In other words, there is no non-Christian evidence from the first century of a “historical Jesus.” ” Bart Ehrman

Yeah, that is all fine and well. But it won't stop some people in effect believing in it anyway.

 

[Thrillobyte]

No. Not true at all, on almost every point above. Not even most fundamentalists believe that everyone has to believe everything exactly the same ways. The only groups I've ever seen that demand everything think identically on all matters of faith are authoritarian led cults which are way out there on the fringes, typically dangerous and unhealthy groups which drink the kool-aid when dear leader goes over the edge because they have given over all control of independent thoughts to them.

From such an extreme at one end there is a wide spectrum of views away from that point which can be called Christian faith. Being united in faith, is not the same thing as being of one "belief", which is how you put it above. There is a difference between faith and belief. Beliefs are ideas of the mind. Faith is a confidence of the heart, or a gut feeling. Beliefs are mental in nature. Faith is visceral in nature. Different, albeight interrelated and interconnected domains.

So first from above, "the one true religion". Not all Christians imagine Christianity as exclusive in that way, that unless someone converts to the religion and adopts Christian symbols and rites, that they are lost on on their way to hell. Certainly there are those who do believe that. And there are those who do not believe that. A "true religion" really means an authentic religion that brings about authentic, genuine spiritual transformation through its teachings and practices.

There can in fact be many true religions in this sense. Not just one to the exclusion of others. It is not seen as "If this is true, than everything else has to be false", mentality. That's binary black and white thinking. It is 'either/or' thinking. But there is the more realistic and rational understanding of a 'both/and' mentality, which sees that truth is not exclusive, but inclusive.

"Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at its peak we all gaze at the single bright moon", said the Zen poet. That reflects my view on these things.

Now, as far as the "unifying power of the Holy Spirit", I would agree that is the factor that can and does unite disparate views and personalities, and cutures, and beliefs. But NOT at all in the sense of a common ideaology or belief system. The exact opposite of that. There is a massive difference between uniformity and unity. Unity requires diversity. Sameness of ideas and views creates weakness. It's all the grains running the same direction. Whereas a woven material of criss-crossing patterns is far more strong. That unity is LOVE, not beliefs.

In this sense, it is the mystical heart of all religions, that unifies them in a common connection. It is a spiritual unity, of the heart, of the soul, not of our ideas about things that is considered the "Spirit". Unitive Consciousness, is another way to think about that. It's our connection of the heart that unites, not our agreement of our ideas.

And this too is a view that is found not only in Christianity, but also all religions at the deeper realization of the nature of what a "true religion" is about. Which is the mystical heart of faith itself, which transcends religions.

I pride myself on the fact that I NEVER tell a lie or falsehood to further my position. I'd be happy to debate you on every single point you claim I am wrong on.

Let's start with this:

There is NO secular historical evidence for Jesus, son of God or the apostles, period.

My source:

Scholar Bart D. Ehrman says there is no record of Jesus having lived in these sources. In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence zero, zip references. In other words, there is no non-Christian evidence from the first century of a “historical Jesus.”

Are you going to dispute a renowned scholar with impeccable credentials?

 

[Thrillobyte]

No. Not true at all, on almost every point above. Not even most fundamentalists believe that everyone has to believe everything exactly the same ways. The only groups I've ever seen that demand everything think identically on all matters of faith are authoritarian led cults which are way out there on the fringes, typically dangerous and unhealthy groups which drink the kool-aid when dear leader goes over the edge because they have given over all control of independent thoughts to them.

From such an extreme at one end there is a wide spectrum of views away from that point which can be called Christian faith. Being united in faith, is not the same thing as being of one "belief", which is how you put it above. There is a difference between faith and belief. Beliefs are ideas of the mind. Faith is a confidence of the heart, or a gut feeling. Beliefs are mental in nature. Faith is visceral in nature. Different, albeight interrelated and interconnected domains.

So first from above, "the one true religion". Not all Christians imagine Christianity as exclusive in that way, that unless someone converts to the religion and adopts Christian symbols and rites, that they are lost on on their way to hell. Certainly there are those who do believe that. And there are those who do not believe that. A "true religion" really means an authentic religion that brings about authentic, genuine spiritual transformation through its teachings and practices.

There can in fact be many true religions in this sense. Not just one to the exclusion of others. It is not seen as "If this is true, than everything else has to be false", mentality. That's binary black and white thinking. It is 'either/or' thinking. But there is the more realistic and rational understanding of a 'both/and' mentality, which sees that truth is not exclusive, but inclusive.

"Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at its peak we all gaze at the single bright moon", said the Zen poet. That reflects my view on these things.

Now, as far as the "unifying power of the Holy Spirit", I would agree that is the factor that can and does unite disparate views and personalities, and cutures, and beliefs. But NOT at all in the sense of a common ideaology or belief system. The exact opposite of that. There is a massive difference between uniformity and unity. Unity requires diversity. Sameness of ideas and views creates weakness. It's all the grains running the same direction. Whereas a woven material of criss-crossing patterns is far more strong. That unity is LOVE, not beliefs.

In this sense, it is the mystical heart of all religions, that unifies them in a common connection. It is a spiritual unity, of the heart, of the soul, not of our ideas about things that is considered the "Spirit". Unitive Consciousness, is another way to think about that. It's our connection of the heart that unites, not our agreement of our ideas.

And this too is a view that is found not only in Christianity, but also all religions at the deeper realization of the nature of what a "true religion" is about. Which is the mystical heart of faith itself, which transcends religions.

An apology is in order. I jumped the gun and thought you were referring to my OP. But let's take what you post here and examine it.

Unity requires diversity. Sameness of ideas and views creates weakness. It's all the grains running the same direction.

I couldn't disagree more. Even Paul is wise enough to say that a Christian should never marry a non-Christian. He was wise enough realize that was like mixing oil and water in a pan over a flame. The definition of unity is:
a) the quality or state of not being multiple : oneness
Similar words; accord; to be consistent or in harmony : agree

None of this sounds like diversity to me, walker.

 

[Audie]

Those who frenetically reject historicity as a valid case on inference to the best explanation should explain ...

• Acts,
• the Epistles,
• Josephus on James, and
• the apparent absence of a mythicist polemic against nascent Christianity,

that is not at heart a tortured conspiracy theory, i.e., they're all fabrications and those insidious Christians destroyed all evidence found to be problematic.

You got it backwards

 

[Audie]

Making Paul a false apostle in Bible lore.


Matthew 24:23

"At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it".

His snakebite story sure is phony

 

[Twilight Hue]

God does work in mysterious ways, but that does not explain why God doesn't answer prayers.
I just explained why God does not answer all our prayers in post #225

It's just to accommodate the odds game with these kind of things. Hit and miss stuff.

If it works, then one can say, "See, God answers prayer".

If it dosent, then one could say , "God has his reasons".

It's kind of a convenient all around approach that dosent really do anything at all.