There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

[Left Coast]

I actually never made the statement that, "the Bible says it, I beleive it, that settles it." My statement was "If what you are saying is true the prove it from a Hebrew text w/o translation."

Replace "Bible" with "Tanakh" and they seem functionally identical to me.

You say the same for any text. For example, someone claims that the original tanscript of Romeo and Juliet the exact statement of, "Hey there very pretty lady come down here and let us ride in my BMW to Times Square," would have to pull out the original text to prove that the exact statement shows up there. Pulling out a translation would not cut it in such a situation. See how they are not the same?

I understand that someone would have to demonstrate that a text actually said "xyz" in the original language in order to reasonably claim that. I don't see that as ensuring doctrinal agreement, however, because even if we agree on what a text says, it does not ensure that we agree on what the text means. This happens all the time across all languages I'm aware of. Including Hebrew, given the various conflicting schools of thought within Judaism.

 

[Left Coast]

I find it quite ridiculous that something has to be the opinion of all Jews to be valid.
That sets an insane requirement which no group of people ever can meet.

I agree, which is why the original claim that, "if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate" seemed so obviously incorrect to me.

 

[Flankerl]

I agree, which is why the original claim that, "if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate" seemed so obviously incorrect to me.

What you fail to understand is that inner-Jewish disagreements are based on completely different topics and of far lesser importance than the Jewish-Christian divide of disagreements.

For example: The entire existence of the Reform Movement is not based on a theological dispute but on the idea of some Jews that if they would stop doing Jewish stuff their Christian neighbours would accept them as fellow men.

This is far different from the Misnagdim - Hasidim dispute.

 

[Brickjectivity]

There are a lot of people (non-Christian and non-Jewish) who are making the world a better place. There are Athiest who are making the world a better place, there are Animists who are making the world a better place, there are Wiccans who are making the world a better place, there are Buddhists who are making the world a good place, etc. According to Torath Mosheh no nation or earth has a patent on that one.

If that is the standard that is used by Christianity then Judaism and Christainity are definately not on the same page. It is clear in Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism that the world is filled with non-Jewish people doing good things and they don't have to be Jewish to do good things. In fact, [DRUM ROLL] Torath Mosheh teaches that a person can do good in the world and never beleive that Hashem is the source of creation.

Consider that Christians should easily be happy with their lives and beleifs w/o even considering that Jews exist. We are counting you out or in. We simply have no need to count at all. The only time we really have to even think about Christianity or even Jesus is when someone is either a) trying to misinform people about what we Jews are about or b) when someone is trying to convert a Jew to Christianity. If neither of these situations existed there would be a lot more Jews in the world who would not think about Christianity at all. I.e. it wouldn't be on our radar and it doesn't have to be.

Yes, there are lots of people doing so, and there need not be any losers for there to be winners. There also need be no missionaries from Christians to Jews, true.

...If that is the standard that is used by Christianity then Judaism and Christainity are definately not on the same page...

No, I also don't think there is a patent on it.

a) trying to misinform people about what we Jews are about or

That is something Christians should learn not to do and have not, generally. Sorry about that.

b) when someone is trying to convert a Jew to Christianity.

I think that is rare, but that it goes alone with your 'a': misinformation.

If neither of these situations existed there would be a lot more Jews in the world who would not think about Christianity at all. I.e. it wouldn't be on our radar and it doesn't have to be.

Its the same planet.

 

[Left Coast]

What you fail to understand is that inner-Jewish disagreements are based on completely different topics and of far lesser importance than the Jewish-Christian divide of disagreements.

For example: The entire existence of the Reform Movement is not based on a theological dispute but on the idea of some Jews that if they would stop doing Jewish stuff their Christian neighbours would accept them as fellow men.

This is far different from the Misnagdim - Hasidim dispute.

I have no doubt that Jewish groups have less disagreement with each other than they do with Christians. Christianity is a different religion, despite having Jewish origins.

What I questioned was the claim that if everyone could just read the Tanakh in Hebrew, disagreements about theology or textual interpretation would end. That seems obviously false.

If the claim is narrowed to just the idea that if Christians could read Hebrew, they wouldn't be Christians anymore...okay?

 

[74x12]

In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology.

According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity.

Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth religious debate is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if it were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes.

For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

• Messiah: Christian definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).

• messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)

Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: [fill in the blank]" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King" where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used w/o translation and basically be done with the whole thing quick and fast.

So you portray Judaism as being unconcerned with the gentile world ... God made us all fish or fowl right? But what about Noahide laws?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Incidentally, where does the Tanakh say that an understanding of the Tanakh is only legitimate if it is more than 300 years old?

It says it in the following places:

 

[Left Coast]

It says it in the following places:

View attachment 47634

View attachment 47635

I don't speak Hebrew, you'll have to translate it for me. If you claim any translation will make it less than clear that that's what it says...that's quite a problem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Its the same planet.

Exactly, and thus there is no need for Jews to even consider Christianity since it is not for us to consider and there are enough people in the world who are happy with being Christians. There is no Jewish desire to convince Christians to drop what makes them happy to go for something else.

Thus, if we all just accept that people have their ways and views then the world will work fine and there is no need for anyone missionizing the other. See, we are getting somewhere.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't speak Hebrew, you'll have to translate it for me. If you claim any translation will make it less than clear that that's what it says...that's quite a problem.

For us Jews it isn't a problem. You have to remember, I am not trying to convince you to believe me.

Besides, if you really want to know what it says I can arrange a Zoom - with someone who can confirm my ability to translate it. Remember what I said from the start - in Hebrew w/o translations. I.e. I tell everyone on this thread what is there and then they pull out a Christian translation to try and mis-translate it or mis-represent it. IF they really know what is in the Hebrew Tanakh they would see it posted here, w/o having the ability to google it, and know what it says. If they don't know what it says then they don't know what is in the Hebrew Tanakh.

I can guarentee you that a good number of Jews on RF who see what I posted will know what it says and where it comes from in the Tanakh - they can confirm that it provides a standard that hasn't been met by Christianity for a Torah based Jew to accept Christianity.

 

[Left Coast]

For us Jews it isn't a problem. You have to remember, I am not trying to convince you to believe me.

Besides, if you really want to know what it says I can arrange a Zoom - with someone who can confirm my ability to translate it. Remember what I said from the start - in Hebrew w/o translations. I.e. I tell everyone on this thread what is there and then they pull out a Christian translation to try and mis-translate it or mis-represent it. IF they really know what is in the Hebrew Tanakh they would see it posted here, w/o having the ability to google it, and know what it says. If they don't know what it says then they don't know what is in the Hebrew Tanakh.

I can guarentee you that a good number of Jews on RF who see what I posted will know what it says and where it comes from in the Tanakh - they can confirm that it provides a standard that hasn't been met by Christianity for a Torah based Jew to accept Christianity.

I have no doubt that Jews will agree with you that your understanding of the Tanakh precludes Christianity. If they didn't, they'd be Christians.

I also see no need for a Zoom call for me. Just translate the text you posted for me right here, yourself. You're clearly fluent in English. If any other bilingual Hebrew/English speakers identify an error in your translation, I trust them to point it out.

So what does the text say?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So you portray Judaism as being unconcerned with the gentile world ... God made us all fish or fowl right? But what about Noahide laws?

We are unconcerned about converting the non-Jewish world. We live on the same planet with all peoples and we have history of working with people who are not Jewish, just like all sane people should and do. There is no such thing as a "gentile world" since there is a world full of "human people/nations." PS for those who don't the term "gentile" is not a Jewish term. The words we have are (גוי גויים) or (נוכרי נוכרים). These words when translated properly just mean "nations/peoples."

In fact, I just finished being on a non-Jewish podcast w/o any problem. We Jews further have no concept of converting anyone not-Jewish to the Torah and no concept of forcing the Noachide laws on the world. Including missionizing things they don't want to hear.

I notice that seems to bother some people that we are not chasing them down to become Jewish.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have no doubt that Jews will agree with you that your understanding of the Tanakh precludes Christianity. If they didn't, they'd be Christians.

Maybe they be Buddhist instead of Christian. Let's be fare here. There are Jews who leave the Torah and become Buddhist.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You're clearly fluent in English. If any other bilingual Hebrew/English speakers identify an error in your translation, I trust them to point it out.

So what does the text say?

It essentially says that you have to go back through and prove something is ancient and is derived from ancient times, by way of our Jewish ancestors, to prove something. If that can't be done we Torath Moshe Jews/Orthodox Jews shouldn't listen to said person.

This is one I forgot to include with that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Christianity is a different religion.

Bingo. That is essentially what I wrote.

What I questioned was the claim that if everyone could just read the Tanakh in Hebrew, disagreements about theology or textual interpretation would end. That seems obviously false.

It is a good thing that I didn't write that anywhere.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I agree, which is why the original claim that, "if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate" seemed so obviously incorrect to me.

You may want go back and read what I wrote. Let's break this down like this.

1. Which "people" do you think I am talking about?
2. Which issue would no longer be of debate?
3. Hint, hint. I stated at the very beginning the the "people" are certain types of Christians. And the debate was about "the claim that those people have about what is Jewish, what Jews hold by, and what they claim is in the Hebrew Tanakh."

Thus, IF those claims by the types of people, described earlier and above, were taken through the Hebrew Tanakh - they would be squashed within 10 minutes. Jews who do this would not do so in order to convert a Christian. A Jew would simply do it to prove the point of why Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews are not Christians and should not be, based on the Hebrew Tanakh.

 

[Left Coast]

It essentially says that you have to go back through and prove something is ancient is derived from ancient times, by way of our Jewish ancestors, to prove something. If that can't be done we shouldn't listen to said person.

This is one I forgot to include with that.

View attachment 47636

What are you citing? Like, what passage?

And what is the actual translation?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What are you citing? Like, what passage?

And what is the actual translation?

I am citing statements made in the Tanakh. One from the Torah and two from different Nevi'im that in English are called prophets. Again, as I stated before a translation won't help you with this. Only the Hebrew text. I know this may seem like I am being dodgy but it actually proves the point I was making about the language in regards to claims made by Christians who state that what they hold by is found in the Hebrew Tanakh. It further proves who actually has the ability to read it and know what it is in.

If there is anyone Jewish who is viewing this thread feel free to verify if my short and to the point translation matches what is written in the sections of the Tankah I provided.

 

[Left Coast]

You may want go back and read what I wrote. Let's break this down like this.

1. Which "people" do you think I am talking about?
2. Which issue would no longer be of debate?
3. Hint, hint. I stated at the very beginning the the "people" are certain types of Christians. And the debate was about "the claim that those people have about what is Jewish, what Jews hold by, and what they claim is in the Hebrew Tanakh."

Thus, IF those claims by the types of people, described earlier and above, were taken through the Hebrew Tanakh - they would be squashed within 10 minutes. Jews who do this would not do so in order to convert a Christian. A Jew would simply do it to prove the point of why Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews are not Christians and should not be, based on the Hebrew Tanakh.

Got it! Okay, I misunderstood that piece, sorry.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What are you citing? Like, what passage?

And what is the actual translation?

I want to wait a bit before I put that information for, for the reasons mentioed in the OP. I will privately tell you outside of this thread.