There is no Proof that God Exists

[Azekual]

Before you start raining hellfire and brimstone, there is no proof against God either. Confused about where this is going? Let me explain.

Before we go any further, let me make something clear:

Belief/faith =/= to know

A lot of people believe they're interchangeable, when in reality they are not.

noun verb (used with object) 1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.

2. to have established or fixed in the mind or memory: to know a poem by heart; Do you know the way to the park from here?

3. to be cognizant or aware of: I know it.

4. be acquainted with (a thing, place, person, etc.), as by sight, experience, or report: to know the mayor.

5. to understand from experience or attainment (usually followed by how before an infinitive): to know how to make gingerbread.

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.

2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Christianity is a Faith based religion. You Choose to Believe that God exists and obtain Salvation. Faith means you Choose to believe in God without proof. If irrefutable proof (the kind that makes nearly everyone agree about it) ever arose for or against God's existence, two big things would happen:
1) Faith would become knowledge, rendering salvation null and void.

2) When you have Knowledge of God, you no longer have a choice to believe. It's a worship or risk ******* him off scenario (you know he exists, thus are expected to Worship). With the inverse: God doesn't exist so any worship is pointless.

If God does exist ( I personally believe he does), he's not going to give proof of his existence until He decides to begin the Rapture and Tribulation, and proof against his existence will never come.

If he doesn't exist, then proof for his existence will never come and proof against it may or may not pop up eventually.

In the end, no proof of his existence/nonexistence is currently available, hopefully this will end all arguments (knowing my luck it will start a whole new one).

Why does everyone take religion so seriously? Believe if you want and if you don't want to then more power to your elbow. It's really that simple.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Before you start raining hellfire and brimstone, there is no proof against God either.

Aside from logical paradoxes involving omnipotence, omniscience and free will, omnibenevolence and evil, etc.

 

[Azekual]

Aside from logical paradoxes involving omnipotence, omniscience and free will, omnibenevolence and evil, etc.

The paradoxes a debatable at best and leave room for interpretation.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The paradoxes a debatable at best and leave room for interpretation.

If you say so...

 

[Azekual]

Omniscience and free will:
God may know all that will happen but is not required to act upon said knowledge, thus sustaining free will
Omnibenevolence and evil:
God is the source of all that is good. Evil exists only because God allows us free Will to choose good or evil. I'm sure he doesn't enjoy it, but free will forces him to accept it.
Create an object He can't move:
This one I can't explain without my quantum physics book

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Omniscience and free will:
God may know all that will happen but is not required to act upon said knowledge, thus sustaining free will

Merely the illusion of free will then.

Omnibenevolence and evil:
God is the source of all that is good. Evil exists only because God allows us free Will to choose good or evil. I'm sure he doesn't enjoy it, but free will forces him to accept it.

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

 

[Azekual]

Merely the illusion of free will then.

How so? Knowing our next 100 moves does not interfere with Free Will unless He acts upon that knowledge by altering our decision in our head or other underhanded tricks.

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

And? How is disaster evil? Disaster may kill people but disaster (on a much larger scale) is good. Disaster promotes evolution, growth, and keeps the world from becoming stagnant.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How so? Knowing our next 100 moves does not interfere with Free Will unless He acts upon that knowledge by altering our decision in our head or other underhanded tricks.

Knowing your actions EXACTLY AS THEY WILL OCCUR invalidates free will. If it will always play out that way, then there never was a true choice. It's all an illusion.

And? How is disaster evil? Disaster may kill people but disaster (on a much larger scale) is good. Disaster promotes evolution, growth, and keeps the world from becoming stagnant.

Disaster kills many innocent people. One of the ten commandments, specifically chosen by God, states "You shall not kill". Apparently God doesn't play by his own rules.

 

[Azekual]

Knowing your actions EXACTLY AS THEY WILL OCCUR invalidates free will. If it will always play out that way, then there never was a true choice. It's all an illusion.

Maybe it just appears to be an illusion? Or maybe it really is an illusion. However, God does occasionally nudge you in one direction or another, making you pause and think about your decision.
Maybe his knowledge is dynamic:
He may see all of your possible options and their outcomes but doesn't know for sure the route you will take until you decide.
That would preserve free will

Disaster kills many innocent people. One of the ten commandments, specifically chosen by God, states "You shall not kill". Apparently God doesn't play by his own rules.

More recent translations of the bible have established it's meant to be translated as "Thou shalt not commit Murder" Which is defined as killing without a justifiable cause. Killing people to keep the world dynamic and bring their souls "Home" sounds like it could be justified.

Plus, the Ten Commandments were only meant to apply to humans. If God can commit adultery, then we have bigger problems than him breaking the ten commandments

 

[K.Venugopal]

What constitutes proof?

 

[methylatedghosts]

Knowing your actions EXACTLY AS THEY WILL OCCUR invalidates free will. If it will always play out that way, then there never was a true choice. It's all an illusion.

Try to imagine it this way.

This morning, I woke up. I got up to make breakfast. Before me lie two paths. The first path is the one where I have a bowl of cereal with yoghurt. The second path is the one where I have toast with jam. I imagine that God can see these two paths. I imagine that God can also see waaaaayyy further down these paths, and where they branch off where there are new choices to make. I imagine that god can probably see down all of those paths as well, into foreverty, splitting infinitely into different paths. I imagine that God can see every single choice. The choice that WE see, is the path we walk down, the path we put our conscious effort into. Back to breakfast, I chose to have cereal with yoghurt. At least, that's how it seems. I just chose to put my conscious effort, and walk down the path of cereal with yoghurt.

Toast path still exists, it's still there. I just haven't put my own conscious effort into that path, but that doesn't stop it from existing. Each choice that is made, each act in consciousness creates the reality you are currently in. You put your self there. The "other" paths are still there, and are just as valid, and are happening right now. God can see all of these things happening at once. God is seeing every single choice you are making. Free will is the freedom to focus your will down whatever path you choose. It is not God knowing that I will choose cereal, and then my choosing cereal. God knows I will choose cereal and God knows I will choose toast. The free will bit is where I put my self. I may very well be eating toast right now in some other parallel existence.

At least... that's what my thoughts are. Thats how I like to pretend God and Free Will can co-exist.

 

[Azekual]

What constitutes proof?

For God's existence:
His name being ****** into an Iceberg from above the clouds
or Him coming down to this planet and proclaiming he's God in some flagrant display of power that would convince the world (nullifying gravity would be sufficient) he's God. Basically something unanimously described as impossible

Against:
I have no clue what could irrefutably disprove God's existence, almost everything I can think of can be countered.
Recreating the big bang would be a heavy blow to fundamentalists but as I see it God could have easily used the mechanics of the universe to assist in creation.

you have any ideas?

 

[Azekual]

Try to imagine it this way.

This morning, I woke up. I got up to make breakfast. Before me lie two paths. The first path is the one where I have a bowl of cereal with yoghurt. The second path is the one where I have toast with jam. I imagine that God can see these two paths. I imagine that God can also see waaaaayyy further down these paths, and where they branch off where there are new choices to make. I imagine that god can probably see down all of those paths as well, into foreverty, splitting infinitely into different paths. I imagine that God can see every single choice. The choice that WE see, is the path we walk down, the path we put our conscious effort into. Back to breakfast, I chose to have cereal with yoghurt. At least, that's how it seems. I just chose to put my conscious effort, and walk down the path of cereal with yoghurt.

Toast path still exists, it's still there. I just haven't put my own conscious effort into that path, but that doesn't stop it from existing. Each choice that is made, each act in consciousness creates the reality you are currently in. You put your self there. The "other" paths are still there, and are just as valid, and are happening right now. God can see all of these things happening at once. God is seeing every single choice you are making. Free will is the freedom to focus your will down whatever path you choose. It is not God knowing that I will choose cereal, and then my choosing cereal. God knows I will choose cereal and God knows I will choose toast. The free will bit is where I put my self. I may very well be eating toast right now in some other parallel existence.

At least... that's what my thoughts are. Thats how I like to pretend God and Free Will can co-exist.

I like the way you think. You've done some heavy exploring with your faith havent you?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Try to imagine it this way.

This morning, I woke up. I got up to make breakfast. Before me lie two paths. The first path is the one where I have a bowl of cereal with yoghurt. The second path is the one where I have toast with jam. I imagine that God can see these two paths. I imagine that God can also see waaaaayyy further down these paths, and where they branch off where there are new choices to make. I imagine that god can probably see down all of those paths as well, into foreverty, splitting infinitely into different paths. I imagine that God can see every single choice. The choice that WE see, is the path we walk down, the path we put our conscious effort into. Back to breakfast, I chose to have cereal with yoghurt. At least, that's how it seems. I just chose to put my conscious effort, and walk down the path of cereal with yoghurt.

Toast path still exists, it's still there. I just haven't put my own conscious effort into that path, but that doesn't stop it from existing. Each choice that is made, each act in consciousness creates the reality you are currently in. You put your self there. The "other" paths are still there, and are just as valid, and are happening right now. God can see all of these things happening at once. God is seeing every single choice you are making. Free will is the freedom to focus your will down whatever path you choose. It is not God knowing that I will choose cereal, and then my choosing cereal. God knows I will choose cereal and God knows I will choose toast. The free will bit is where I put my self. I may very well be eating toast right now in some other parallel existence.

At least... that's what my thoughts are. Thats how I like to pretend God and Free Will can co-exist.

So either God knows for certain what you choose and you're lying to yourself, or you have the choice and God doesn't know the actual outcome. I see no solution to the paradox here.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I like the way you think. You've done some heavy exploring with your faith havent you?

Lots and lots of reading

 

[Azekual]

So either God knows for certain what you choose and you're lying to yourself, or you have the choice and God doesn't know the actual outcome. I see no solution to the paradox here.

Why not?
If God doesn't know where he will apply his consciousness until he does it, that preserves free will.

 

[methylatedghosts]

So either God knows for certain what you choose and you're lying to yourself, or you have the choice and God doesn't know the actual outcome. I see no solution to the paradox here.

Not quite. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.

God knows all choices. All choices are made, and all results exist. This morning I ate cereal. This morning I ate toast. Where I put my conscious thought into was the cereal eating path. The toast path that I essentially chose to ignore, is still happening, just not where "I" am. Perhaps a parallel existence, perhaps in my imagination. Perhaps it's both. Perhaps my imagination IS the parallel existence. Perhaps it's happening some"where" else completely. If God is to exist, I imagine it to be from such a perspective that all those things can be seen. I imagine that God's vantage point would be from someplace outside of the confines of physical existence.

Lets say that because of the flavours of my breakfast, I want something to drink, and there would be two more choices to make.

If cereal, then choose between coffee and tea.
If toast, then orange juice or water.

From god's perspective there would be 4 different realities, all as valid and as real as each other.

In the first, I would be eating cereal and drinking coffee.
In the second, I would be eating cereal and drinking tea.
In the third, I would be eating toast and drinking orange juice.
In the fourth, I would be eating toast and drinking water.

The free will is the part I focus on. The free will is the path I consciously take. The others are still happening, and are still existing, but I'm not consciously a part of them. It's still "me", but in a parallel existence. My current focus, happens to be that I ate cereal and drank tea.

Does God know for certain what you will choose? Yes - God knows you will choose reality 1, 2, 3, AND 4.

EDIT: Lying to myself? I do it just as much as you. I lie to myself about the existence and validity of the other realities all the time. I lie to myself, and tell my self that they don't exist. It would be rather impossible to do the simplest tasks, if I had to spread my conscious thought into limitless other realities. The "me" in those other realities will also be lying to themselves, to stop confusing "me over there" with "me over here".

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Not quite. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.

God knows all choices. All choices are made, and all results exist. This morning I ate cereal. This morning I ate toast. Where I put my conscious thought into was the cereal eating path. The toast path that I essentially chose to ignore, is still happening, just not where "I" am. Perhaps a parallel existence, perhaps in my imagination. Perhaps it's both. Perhaps my imagination IS the parallel existence. Perhaps it's happening some"where" else completely. If God is to exist, I imagine it to be from such a perspective that all those things can be seen. I imagine that God's vantage point would be from someplace outside of the confines of physical existence.

Lets say that because of the flavours of my breakfast, I want something to drink, and there would be two more choices to make.

If cereal, then choose between coffee and tea.
If toast, then orange juice or water.

From god's perspective there would be 4 different realities, all as valid and as real as each other.

In the first, I would be eating cereal and drinking coffee.
In the second, I would be eating cereal and drinking tea.
In the third, I would be eating toast and drinking orange juice.
In the fourth, I would be eating toast and drinking water.

The free will is the part I focus on. The free will is the path I consciously take. The others are still happening, and are still existing, but I'm not consciously a part of them. It's still "me", but in a parallel existence. My current focus, happens to be that I ate cereal and drank tea.

Does God know for certain what you will choose? Yes - God knows you will choose reality 1, 2, 3, AND 4.

Then what's the point of free will if you take all the paths anyway? Unless will is somehow outside of physical reality, there isn't an equal 25% chance of taking each outcome. The mind is not a random number generator running on arbitrary percentages. It has favorites, preconceptions, desires, disgusts, etc. In the end it's never going to be a truly random decision to take any outcome. It's going to be a mentally calculated (usually subconsciously) choice to take one over another, thus eliminating the idea of "I chose this in a parallel reality".

You could easily say "In a parallel universe, I chose to murder everyone within a 5 mile radius on a whim". Would you choose that? Are you a murderer? Probably not, meaning you would never choose that path, eliminating that choice from possibility and therefore that person murdering in a parallel reality is not you. You don't take every path, because that path is not your will (or possibly just never comes to mind), meaning there is only one true path, meaning there is only one true outcome.

 

[Azekual]

Then what's the point of free will if you take all the paths anyway? Unless will is somehow outside of physical reality, there isn't an equal 25% chance of taking each outcome. The mind is not a random number generator running on arbitrary percentages. It has favorites, preconceptions, desires, disgusts, etc. In the end it's never going to be a truly random decision to take any outcome. It's going to be a mentally calculated (usually subconsciously) choice to take one over another, thus eliminating the idea of "I chose this in a parallel reality".

You could easily say "In a parallel universe, I chose to murder everyone within a 5 mile radius on a whim". Would you choose that? Are you a murderer? Probably not, meaning you would never choose that path, eliminating that choice from possibility and therefore that person murdering in a parallel reality is not you. You don't take every path, because that path is not your will (or possibly just never comes to mind), meaning there is only one true path, meaning there is only one true outcome.

Your idea narrows down the choices (in reaction to any stimuli a person can react with any response physically or mentally available to him/her) but if that response is not with in that person's nature, that person does not exist in that option's reality.
But I still think there would be multiple realities, some occupied, some not.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Then what's the point of free will if you take all the paths anyway? Unless will is somehow outside of physical reality, there isn't an equal 25% chance of taking each outcome. The mind is not a random number generator running on arbitrary percentages. It has favorites, preconceptions, desires, disgusts, etc. In the end it's never going to be a truly random decision to take any outcome. It's going to be a mentally calculated (usually subconsciously) choice to take one over another, thus eliminating the idea of "I chose this in a parallel reality".

I was just using the breakfast/drink choices for the sake of simplicity. No doubt there are always other contributing factors, some so subtle you don't even notice. And I never said that it was a random process. The fact remains though, that there are always choices to be made, however influenced or uninfluenced they are. All those preconceptions, desires and disgusts exist from previous choices and the path you've previously taken. In an alternate reality though, those preconceptions, desires and disgusts would be different. In an alternate reality, I am not the same me as in this one.

You could easily say "In a parallel universe, I chose to murder everyone within a 5 mile radius on a whim". Would you choose that? Are you a murderer? Probably not, meaning you would never choose that path, eliminating that choice from possibility and therefore that person murdering in a parallel reality is not you. You don't take every path, because that path is not your will (or possibly just never comes to mind), meaning there is only one true path, meaning there is only one true outcome.

In a parallel universe, "I" may very well have gone on a murdering rampage. The "me" in that existence would be very different to the "me" in this one. As to why I would choose to do so, I don't know. Lets say that at 16 years old I was faced with a choice to go to a party or not. Lets say that I chose to not go, and life continued as normal and here I am today. At that time, in another reality, I would have gone, and perhaps something happened there, that years later resulted in my going on a murderous rampage this Friday. That "me" is not this "me". If I'm wrong, correct me here, but isn't it generally accepted that who you are is the culmination of your experiences, your thoughts and perceptions, in a highly complex cause and effect sort of way?

Take a picture of yourself as a child. You can tell people that this child is you. But what makes the child you? To connect you to the child in the picture, you have to tell a story, "This is me, when I was 7, I was attending such-and-such a school, my best friend was Paul, I later moved across the country, etc etc etc and here I am!" There is nothing else that can really connect you to the child in the picture (unless you happen to have a DNA sample from that time ). You're not even in the same body - none of the cells in that child's body still exist in your own now. To connect you to the child, you have to describe your path. Your path defines who you are right now. In another reality, the paths are different. You are different. The choice to live with Dad across the country, or with Mum in the town you've always been created 2 parallel existences, and you exist in both. The paths since then have been very different to one another, and the you in that one, will be very different to the you in this one.

What's the point of free will if I take all paths anyway?
I think perhaps that the point of free will in this case is part of the great illusion that life is. It's about being ok with making mistakes. It's about creating the reality that you want. For this life, the path I've chosen so far, and the paths that will present themselves, it's about knowing that there are always other options. That just because I've chosen something in the past, doesn't mean I need to choose it again. That I can always choose differently. I fully understand that these conclusions can also be reached in other ways but this, for me at least, is getting into a whole other discussion about "why we are here", which might be better saved till later or for another thread.

EDIT: Thought I'd better make it clear, that I'm not saying that this in any way is a proof for God. Neither am I saying that this IS the way it all is. This is just what I've come to after a fair bit of thought, and a lot of reading. I generally find definitions of God to be lacking, and rather flawed. I figure though, that just because a definition of God is flawed, doesn't mean it exists under other definitions. I am neither saying God exists or it doesn't, because we may have entirely different ideas about what it is.