These answers to the problem of evil are unsatisfactory to me

[Trailblazer]

Huh?

I say that having the power to stop suffering and not stopping the suffering is evil.
I have no idea what you are on about...

I say that expecting God to stop suffering just because God has the power to do so is illogical and unreasonable.
Just because you and others don't like suffering that is no reason for God to put an end to it.

I guess it never even occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit.
Do you think you know more than the all-knowing God who created us about what is good for us?

Because god is evil.

Maybe that would be true if suffering has no benefits, but you do not know that.
I don't like suffering any more than the next person but I can look at it objectively and try to understand the reason for it.

You really should pay better attention.

I think you should too. I can see both sides of the coin because I have been where you are at. In fact, I hated God for nearly 10 years.
I am still not God's best fan but at least I don't hate Him and blame Him anymore.
My life is still hard but my life started to turn around after I started to turn to God instead of away.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, however, none of the questions this thread hopes to answer is even a question if one supposes there is no such thing as a personal, triple-O God. No answers needed at all.

You might want answers but you are not going to get answers.
Even if God is a personal triple-O God I don't think these questions are answerable, not without the religious apologetic.
You can count me out on that one.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because god is evil.

You really should pay better attention.

I sure hope God isn't paying attention.

 

[McBell]

I say that expecting God to stop suffering just because God has the power to do so is illogical and unreasonable.

You "say" a great many things.
But then claim that nothing you say is a claim.
I will still ask it you figure it is illogical?
How is it unreasonable?

Just because you and others don't like suffering that is no reason for God to put an end to it.

When did I make this claim?
Or are you merely making assumptions that best fit your own narrative?

I guess it never even occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit.

You are rather quick to making assumptions based on...Well, I do not have a clue what you are basing this latest assumption on.

Do you think you know more than the all-knowing God who created us about what is good for us?

Actually, I do in fact think I know better than an imaginary story character.

Maybe that would be true if suffering has no benefits, but you do not know that.

Maybe that would be true if suffering had benefits.
But then, you do not know that any more than I do.

I don't like suffering any more than the next person but I can look at it objectively and try to understand the reason for it.

Sweet.
So what is the reason for suffering?

I think you should too.

I am not the one dancing around god being evil.

I can see both sides of the coin because I have been where you are at.

WTF are you talking about?
You have no idea "where I am at".
This is simply more of your baseless assumptions that you think support your favoured narrative.

In fact, I hated God for nearly 10 years.

And?

If you think I hate a story book character you are sadly mistaken.
Funny as hell, but still flat out wrong.

I am still not God's best fan but at least I don't hate Him and blame Him anymore.

And?

My life is still hard but my life started to turn around after I started to turn to God instead of away.

Um...
Congratulations?
Happy Birthday?

 

[McBell]

I sure hope God isn't paying attention.

No worries.
He ain't.

 

[Alien826]

Let's rewind to when there was no creation, only God. God decides to make a universe and everything in it. He has various options, and has the ability to know how each will turn out. One of the options has a lot of suffering, much of it not particularly helpful to the sufferer. There are other options. He chooses the one with a lot of suffering.

So what do you deduce about his motivation?

- He doesn't particularly care about the suffering of the creatures he has created, he just likes pretty galaxies and stuff.
- He actively enjoys watching suffering.
- There is some higher purpose that justifies the suffering.

The last option makes logical sense but we have no way of knowing if it is true. The others fit a somewhat human picture of God, but don't include any benevolence.

Fortunately, an atheistic view of the universe doesn't have this problem. The universe simply is the way it is.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You might want answers but you are not going to get answers.
Even if God is a personal triple-O God I don't think these questions are answerable, not without the religious apologetic.
You can count me out on that one.

That's the thing -- what makes me an atheist is I don't want answers. I accept a natural explanation. It is only when one posits a non-natural explanation that such questions arise and need answering.

 

[firedragon]

These answers to the problem of evil are unsatisfactory to me​

What is the problem of evil? Could you try and put it in a premise by premise argument?

 

[Trailblazer]

You "say" a great many things.
But then claim that nothing you say is a claim.
I will still ask it you figure it is illogical?
How is it unreasonable?

Nothing I have been saying is a claim, it is only my opinion which is based upon my beliefs.

It is illogical and unreasonable to expect God to do anything, just because God has the power to do anything.
From my point of view, that is backwards, since God is all-knowing and all-wise, so God knows what He is doing and why...
Since no human is either all-knowing or all-wise, humans should not put themselves in a position of expecting God to do anything.

I asked you before:
Why would not stopping suffering just because you have the ability to stop suffering be evil?

You never answered.

When did I make this claim?
Or are you merely making assumptions that best fit your own narrative?

Fair enough, you did not make this claim, but if it is not because you don't like suffering why do you think that God should put an end to suffering?

You are rather quick to making assumptions based on...Well, I do not have a clue what you are basing this latest assumption on.

I said I guess, I did not I assume I know.
I said: "I guess it never even occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit."

So, has it occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit?

Actually, I do in fact think I know better than an imaginary story character.

That is called deflection. We are not talking about an imaginary story character.

If an all-knowing God who created us exists, do you think you would know more than that God?

Maybe that would be true if suffering had benefits.
But then, you do not know that any more than I do.

I do know that suffering has been beneficial for me, and there are plenty of people who have suffered, so you can ask them if it has been beneficial for them.

Sweet.
So what is the reason for suffering?

does suffering have benefits - Google Search

www.google.com

I am not the one dancing around god being evil.

I am not dancing around that. I am flat out saying that God is not evil, God is good.

WTF are you talking about?
You have no idea "where I am at".
This is simply more of your baseless assumptions that you think support your favoured narrative.

Okay let me rephrase that. One side of the coin is that God is evil. The other side of the coin is that God is good.
I have seen both sides of the coin because I used to think God is evil because I suffered, but now I know that God is not evil just because I suffered.

And?

If you think I hate a story book character you are sadly mistaken.
Funny as hell, but still flat out wrong.

I did not say that YOU hated God, I said that I hated God.

And?

And nothing.

Um...
Congratulations?
Happy Birthday?

I thought I could have a serious discussion with you but I guess I was wrong.
You have turned this discussion into a dog and pony show.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what do you deduce about his motivation?

- He doesn't particularly care about the suffering of the creatures he has created, he just likes pretty galaxies and stuff.
- He actively enjoys watching suffering.
- There is some higher purpose that justifies the suffering.

The last option makes logical sense but we have no way of knowing if it is true. The others fit a somewhat human picture of God, but don't include any benevolence.

Yes, the last option makes logical sense, but we have no way of knowing if it is true.
The only way we can know if suffering has been beneficial for people is by asking them, but even if they say yes, does that justify the suffering?

Fortunately, an atheistic view of the universe doesn't have this problem. The universe simply is the way it is.

That's so much easier, not having to be thinking what God is doing or not doing.
I'll meet you at the atheist kiosk in the mall.

 

[McBell]

Nothing I have been saying is a claim, it is only my opinion which is based upon my beliefs.

Exactly.
You claim your claims are not claims.
I do not subscribe to that particular train of thought.

It is illogical and unreasonable to expect God to do anything, just because God has the power to do anything.

Merely repeating the same claim does in no way support said claim.

From my point of view, that is backwards, since God is all-knowing and all-wise, so God knows what He is doing and why...
Since no human is either all-knowing or all-wise, humans should not put themselves in a position of expecting God to do anything.

Fair enough.
BUt you still have not explained why it is illogical or unreasonable.

I asked you before:
Why would not stopping suffering just because you have the ability to stop suffering be evil?

Actually, you have not asked me that before.
At least not in this thread.

You never answered.

You never asked it in this thread.

Fair enough, you did not make this claim, but if it is not because you don't like suffering why do you think that God should put an end to suffering?

Because to not end suffering when has the power to end suffering is evil.

I said I guess, I did not I assume I know.
I said: "I guess it never even occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit."

So, has it occurred to you that there could be a reason for suffering, a benefit?

Yes.
There could very well be.
Not that anyone would know what it is.
Thus meaning for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

That is called deflection. We are not talking about an imaginary story character.

I'm sorry.
I thought this thread was about god...

If an all-knowing God who created us exists, do you think you would know more than that God?

I suppose it would depend on the restriction said god was under.
I notice that theists do not hesitate to limit their deities power, so it makes sense the do the same with their deities knowledge.

I do know that suffering has been beneficial for me, and there are plenty of people who have suffered, so you can ask them if it has been beneficial for them.

does suffering have benefits - Google Search

www.google.com

Counting the hits and ignoring the misses does not actually help your position.

That some people can benefit from suffering does not make suffering ok when there is a supposed entity that can end suffering.

I am not dancing around that. I am flat out saying that God is not evil, God is good.

Yes, you are dancing around the evil perpetuated by god in order to maintain your "god is good" mantra.

Okay let me rephrase that. One side of the coin is that God is evil. The other side of the coin is that God is good.
I have seen both sides of the coin because I used to think God is evil because I suffered, but now I know that God is not evil just because I suffered.

It is two sides of one coin.
So it appears to me that your analogy actually supports my position and not so much yours.

I thought I could have a serious discussion with you but I guess I was wrong.
You have turned this discussion into a dog and pony show.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly.
You claim your claims are not claims.
I do not subscribe to that particular train of thought.

Merely repeating the same claim does in no way support said claim.

I make no claims. I only have beliefs and opinions.

Fair enough.
BUt you still have not explained why it is illogical or unreasonable.

I just explained it.
God is all-knowing and all-wise, so God knows what He is doing and why...
Since no human is either all-knowing or all-wise, it is illogical and unreasonable for humans to put themselves in a position of expecting God to do anything.

Actually, you have not asked me that before.
At least not in this thread.

#12

You never asked it in this thread.

#12

Because to not end suffering when has the power to end suffering is evil.

Talk about claims, you are the one with the claims. All I have are beliefs and opinions.

But why is it evil? that is the hundred-dollar question you have yet to answer.

Yes.
There could very well be.
Not that anyone would know what it is.
Thus meaning for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

Plenty of people know what the benefits to suffering are. They are posted all over the internet.

does suffering have benefits - Google Search

I'm sorry.
I thought this thread was about god...

It is about God, not about an imaginary story character.

I suppose it would depend on the restriction said god was under.
I notice that theists do not hesitate to limit their deities power, so it makes sense the do the same with their deities knowledge.

God is under no restrictions since God is unlimited in power and knowledge.

Counting the hits and ignoring the misses does not actually help your position.

Go ahead and look on the internet for people who say that they have not benefited from suffering. I am all ears.

That some people can benefit from suffering does not make suffering ok when there is a supposed entity that can end suffering.

If people are benefiting from suffering why would God put an end to suffering? That makes no sense.

Yes, you are dancing around the evil perpetuated by god in order to maintain your "god is good" mantra.

God commits no evil. Only humans do evil things which are a result of breaking God's law.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

It is two sides of one coin.
So it appears to me that your analogy actually supports my position and not so much yours.

No, it does not support your position. I used to think God is evil because I suffered, but now I know that God is not evil just because I suffered.

 

[McBell]

I make no claims. I only have beliefs and opinions.

See.
You keep claiming your claims are not claims.
Perhaps if you repeat it enough you might actually believe it.
I have already stated that I will not.

I just explained it.
God is all-knowing and all-wise, so God knows what He is doing and why...
Since no human is either all-knowing or all-wise, it is illogical and unreasonable for humans to put themselves in a position of expecting God to do anything.

Like I said, you have not explained how it is illogical or unreasonable.
You merely present more claims...

#12

#12

#18

Talk about claims, you are the one with the claims. All I have are beliefs and opinions.

Nope.
Claiming your claims are not claims does not make your claims not claims.

But why is it evil? that is the hundred-dollar question you have yet to answer.

Because it is the opposite of good.
Hells bells, why are witches given more mercy than cancer patients?

Plenty of people know what the benefits to suffering are. They are posted all over the internet.

does suffering have benefits - Google Search

Which does not address in the slightest your gods free pass....

It is about God, not about an imaginary story character.

So you claim.

God is under no restrictions since God is unlimited in power and knowledge.

Except that there is a long list of things theists claim god can not do...

Go ahead and look on the internet for people who say that they have not benefited from suffering. I am all ears.

If people are benefiting from suffering why would God put an end to suffering? That makes no sense.

Now you are merely chasing your tail in a sad attempt to distract from your failing to support your claim.

God commits no evil. Only humans do evil things which are a result of breaking God's law.

Once again with your "god is good" mantra.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

No, it does not support your position. I used to think God is evil because I suffered, but now I know that God is not evil just because I suffered.

three claims in one sentence.
You really are good at making claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like I said, you have not explained how it is illogical or unreasonable.

It's been done twice already.

#18

Me #12: Why would not stopping suffering just because you have the ability to stop suffering be evil?
You #18: I say that having the power to stop suffering and not stopping the suffering is evil.

#18 is a claim if I have ever heard one. Can you support that claim? If you can't, it is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

Because it is the opposite of good.
Hells bells, why are witches given more mercy than cancer patients?

You: Because to not end suffering when has the power to end suffering is evil.
Me: But why is it evil? that is the hundred-dollar question you have yet to answer.

"Because it is the opposite of good" is not an answer. We all know that evil is the opposite of good.

Which does not address in the slightest your gods free pass....

God has a free pass to do or not do anything He wants to do or not do.
God is not answerable to any human, it is the other way around.

Except that there is a long list of things theists claim god can not do...

Nobody knows what God can do except God. I have no list.

Now you are merely chasing your tail in a sad attempt to distract from your failing to support your claim.

You are deflecting again because you cannot answer my question.
I said:
Go ahead and look on the internet for people who say that they have not benefited from suffering. I am all ears.
If people are benefiting from suffering why would God put an end to suffering? That makes no sense.


You are the one who cannot support your claim that having the power to stop suffering and not stopping the suffering is evil.

I am still waiting.

Once again with your "god is good" mantra.

I believe God commits no evil. You claim that God commits evil. Prove it.

three claims in one sentence.
You really are good at making claims.

That was not a claim I made. That was a scripture quote. You can call it a claim if you want to, I don't care.
It does not matter if it is a claim, it only matters if it is true.

 

[Brian2]

How do you explain the existence of evil, despite God being almighty, and all knowing, and perfect love?

How do you forum posters explain that evil exists despite God being, all powerful, all knowing and all love? Why does God permit or create evil? Or did God not want it for anything? Is evil and illusion? Why did Jesus create the situation of the crucifixion and go through that? Why does the...

www.christianforums.com

We are moral beings and that means that God has given us the choice to go against His will and do evil. This is how evil came into the world with help from Satan who put the idea into Adam and Eve that God was not good and that He lied to them.
God already had a way to deal with evil but as we live in time, this way is not instantaneous but works itself out over time.

 

[McBell]

It's been done twice already.

Me #12: Why would not stopping suffering just because you have the ability to stop suffering be evil?
You #18: I say that having the power to stop suffering and not stopping the suffering is evil.

#18 is a claim if I have ever heard one. Can you support that claim? If you can't, it is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

You: Because to not end suffering when has the power to end suffering is evil.
Me: But why is it evil? that is the hundred-dollar question you have yet to answer.

"Because it is the opposite of good" is not an answer. We all know that evil is the opposite of good.

God has a free pass to do or not do anything He wants to do or not do.
God is not answerable to any human, it is the other way around.

Nobody knows what God can do except God. I have no list.

You are deflecting again because you cannot answer my question.
I said:
Go ahead and look on the internet for people who say that they have not benefited from suffering. I am all ears.
If people are benefiting from suffering why would God put an end to suffering? That makes no sense.


You are the one who cannot support your claim that having the power to stop suffering and not stopping the suffering is evil.

I am still waiting.

I believe God commits no evil. You claim that God commits evil. Prove it.

That was not a claim I made. That was a scripture quote. You can call it a claim if you want to, I don't care.
It does not matter if it is a claim, it only matters if it is true.

For this thread I will join you in hiding behind the "my claims are not claims" mantra....

​

**twiddles thumbs**​

​

**taps foot**​

​

**hums softly to self**​

Now what?

 

[1213]

How do you explain the existence of evil, despite God being almighty, and all knowing, and perfect love?

How do you forum posters explain that evil exists despite God being, all powerful, all knowing and all love? Why does God permit or create evil? Or did God not want it for anything? Is evil and illusion? Why did Jesus create the situation of the crucifixion and go through that? Why does the...

www.christianforums.com

Why is the evil problem? In the beginning people wanted to know evil, and therefore were expelled to this first death where we can learn what evil means. In a way this world is like the Matrix, a virtual reality, where we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily nothing of this world can destroy our soul, which is the important part and those who learn well and become righteous, can go back to life.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Audie]

No, it is not the same at all.
Allowing suffering to exist is not the same as causing suffering.

So...if you see a helpless child suffering,
you could easily help, but you just walk by?

If you'd help you are more moral than any
"God".

If you created something over which you
have not just total control, bur foresight to
know exactly what it will do- cause immense
suffering-but you make it anyway, then stand by
as it rips people to pieces*, you'd have to be a
psychopath.

Again, higher standards of decency for people
than for "god".

Of course, the christian god values suffering.
Nothing else satisfies it.

* and blame the victims

 

[Audie]

We are moral beings and that means that God has given us the choice to go against His will and do evil. This is how evil came into the world with help from Satan who put the idea into Adam and Eve that God was not good and that He lied to them.
God already had a way to deal with evil but as we live in time, this way is not instantaneous but works itself out over time.

So god created evil, knew what would happen, but did it anyway.

 

[Link]

God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself. My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates: Salam Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned. Suffering by humans to...

www.religiousforums.com

That's my response to the problem of evil.