They went out from us

[savagewind]

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They are decribed as antichrists in verse 18 which means either one who puts himself in the place of, or the enemy (opponent) of the Messiah.

What does "they went out from us" mean? Who are they (or us) that anyone went out from? John the apostle, isn't it who said it? Verse three of 1 John chapter one says; We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. So the us at 1 John 2:19 is the body, not the ekklēsian or congregation. as in Ephesians 2:10 in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Maybe you do not know Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the ones who go out from them never belonged to them and they use the scripture at 1 John 2:19 to prove it.

 

[outhouse]

First Epistle of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If you read it all, it should give you a better grasp on its context

 

[savagewind]

First Epistle of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If you read it all, it should give you a better grasp on its context

OK The question was not about the context of 1 John. It is about the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses who say that anyone who has left the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses was never really a Jehovah's Witness. JWs say if they had been truely dedicated to God for the Jehovha's Witnesses they would not have left. I am sure John has not answered it in any of his writings so I could read John a thousand times and I would know nothing more about Jehovah's Witnesses belief about what constitutes "us".

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not JW but do have an opinion to offer on this, too. Chapter two verses 28 & 29 advises we, dear children, to 'continue in him' and that 'everyone who does what is right has been born of him'. This is the thing which the anti-christs do not accept. They don't accept that everyone who does right has been born of him, so they do not recognize the body of Christ in which the Son is tabernacle'd (gospel of John 1:14 same author). Doing right isn't enough for them, so they go off in various directions preaching division of Christ's body. These are the ones who won't take communion with those who disagree with themselves.

Sadly this includes those Christians who insist you must pray a particular prayer to invite Jesus into your heart or must say a 'Confession of faith', not understanding that the confession is not a matter of saying 'I am a sinner' but of saying 'I am a liar before God'. This includes many non-denominational groups, charismatics, holy-rollers, southern baptist convention members, church of Christ and many others. All of these won't recognize the body of Christ is composed of those who do right. Instead they make up rules which they presume are formulated in the Bible but that are not actually formulated anywhere. For them doing right isn't enough to be considered part of the body of Christ. Their confession is a confession of words only while their pride strikes God in the face as they grind their fellow servants faces into the ground.

Sounds harsh? Its the way things are.

 

[savagewind]

I'm not JW but do have an opinion to offer on this, too. Chapter two verses 28 & 29 advises we, dear children, to 'continue in him' and that 'everyone who does what is right has been born of him'. This is the thing which the anti-christs do not accept. They don't accept that everyone who does right has been born of him, so they do not recognize the body of Christ in which the Son is tabernacle'd (gospel of John 1:14 same author). Doing right isn't enough for them, so they go off in various directions preaching division of Christ's body. These are the ones who won't take communion with those who disagree with themselves.

Sadly this includes those Christians who insist you must pray a particular prayer to invite Jesus into your heart or must say a 'Confession of faith', not understanding that the confession is not a matter of saying 'I am a sinner' but of saying 'I am a liar before God'. This includes many non-denominational groups, charismatics, holy-rollers, southern baptist convention members, church of Christ and many others. All of these won't recognize the body of Christ is composed of those who do right. Instead they make up rules which they presume are formulated in the Bible but that are not actually formulated anywhere. For them doing right isn't enough to be considered part of the body of Christ. Their confession is a confession of words only while their pride strikes God in the face as they grind their fellow servants faces into the ground.

Sounds harsh? Its the way things are.

I have nothing worthy to say about that but wow what insight! I think you have painted a true picture. Thank you for commenting.

 

[outhouse]

. I am sure John has not answered it in any of his writings so I could read John a thousand times and I would know nothing more about Jehovah's Witnesses belief about what constitutes "us".

Correct.

The verse was taken by JWs and perverted from its original meaning to fit their personal needs. Nothing more.


It was talking of the wide diversity of the first century movement beofre christianity was anywhere near orthodox, and those who thought different from the Johaninne community, which was different from those reading mark matthew and luke.

They would have been outsiders back then.

 

[savagewind]

The congregation of God has always been comprised of believers and those who were not.

Genesis 31:30 Now you have gone off because you longed to return to your father's household. But why did you steal my gods?"

Exodus 20:21,22 Moses agreed to stay with the man, who gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses in marriage. Zipporah gave birth to a son, and Moses named him Gershom, saying, "I have become a foreigner in a foreign land."

Numbers 10:29-33 ...If you come with us, [said to the Midianite, the father-in0law of Moses) we will share with you whatever good things the LORD gives us." If you come with us, we will share with you whatever good things the LORD gives us."...

Exodus 12:37,38 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.

Ezra 9:1,2 1Now when these things had been completed, the princes approached me, saying, "The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, according to their abominations, those of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites. 2"For they have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has intermingled with the peoples of the lands; indeed, the hands of the princes and the rulers have been foremost in this unfaithfulness."…

Leviticus 25:47 47'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him,…

Leviticus 19:34 The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you as the native-born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you lived as foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh your God.

Exodus 22:21 "Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

There is no bad light shed on these except for the account in Ezra. But it wasn't the foreign wives who were faulted. It was the Levites.

The congregation is different than the body of Christ.

 

[outhouse]

The congregation of God has always been comprised of believers and those who were not.

Genesis 31:30 Now you have gone off because you longed to return to your father's household. But why did you steal my gods?"

Exodus 20:21,22 Moses agreed to stay with the man, who gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses in marriage. Zipporah gave birth to a son, and Moses named him Gershom, saying, "I have become a foreigner in a foreign land."

Numbers 10:29-33 ...If you come with us, [said to the Midianite, the father-in0law of Moses) we will share with you whatever good things the LORD gives us." If you come with us, we will share with you whatever good things the LORD gives us."...

Exodus 12:37,38 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.

Ezra 9:1,2 1Now when these things had been completed, the princes approached me, saying, "The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, according to their abominations, those of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites. 2"For they have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has intermingled with the peoples of the lands; indeed, the hands of the princes and the rulers have been foremost in this unfaithfulness."…

Leviticus 25:47 47'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him,…

Leviticus 19:34 The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you as the native-born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you lived as foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh your God.

Exodus 22:21 "Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

There is no bad light shed on these except for the account in Ezra. But it wasn't the foreign wives who were faulted. It was the Levites.

The congregation is different than the body of Christ.

You cannot use the OT to justify a personal interpretation of the NT

The context is different.

 

[savagewind]

You cannot use the OT to justify a personal interpretation of the NT

The context is different.

If I can't they should not be able, but they do. I think it's called fighting fire with fire. Ever hear of it?:slap:

 

[psychoslice]

For me going out from us is those who are not Self Realized or life in the Christ Consciousness, it doesn't mean those who leave the church, because within the church there are many who are not Self Realized, its simply Consciousness speaking through the words, its your inner Self speaking to you, you must always bring scripture back to your self and your self only.

 

[savagewind]

For me going out from us is those who are not Self Realized or life in the Christ Consciousness, it doesn't mean those who leave the church, because within the church there are many who are not Self Realized, its simply Consciousness speaking through the words, its your inner Self speaking to you, you must always bring scripture back to your self and your self only.

I understand this. Nobody can know God for us. And YHVH speaks to us through the scriptures. Is that correct?

 

[Pegg]

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They are decribed as antichrists in verse 18 which means either one who puts himself in the place of, or the enemy (opponent) of the Messiah.

What does "they went out from us" mean? Who are they (or us) that anyone went out from? John the apostle, isn't it who said it? Verse three of 1 John chapter one says; We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. So the us at 1 John 2:19 is the body, not the ekklēsian or congregation. as in Ephesians 2:10 in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Maybe you do not know Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the ones who go out from them never belonged to them and they use the scripture at 1 John 2:19 to prove it.

Would you like to know what we 'actually' teach?

John is prophesying the coming of the AntiChrist. His subject is the antichrist, not individual christians who may come and go from the congregation.

1John 2:18*Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19*They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort. 20*And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. 21*I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth.

The cross reference in our bible at the phrase takes us to Pauls words in Acts 20:30.
"and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves


And here are a list of WT references on Johns phrase 'went out from among us'
IT-1 p116
John specifically mentions apostates as among those of the antichrist by referring to those who “went out from us,” abandoning the Christian congregation. (1Jo 2:18,*19) It therefore includes “the man of lawlessness” or “son of destruction” described by Paul, as well as the “false teachers” Peter denounces for forming destructive sects and who “disown even the owner that bought them.”—2Th 2:3-5; 2Pe 2:1


IT-2p95-96
Regarding the antichrist, he spoke very plainly. He said: “These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you.” (1Jo 2:26) These men were denying that Jesus Christ was the Son of God that had come in the flesh. He explained that they were once with the congregation but had gone out in order that it might be shown that they were not of “our sort.” (2:19) They were not the loyal, loving sort that “have faith to the preserving alive of the soul” but were the sort “that shrink back to destruction.”—Heb 10:39.


WT 1986 p13-14
Guard Against Apostasy
20 John now warns against antichrists. (Read 1*John 2:18,*19.) He reminds fellow believers that from the apostles they “heard that antichrist is coming.” The appearance of “many antichrists” proved that it was the “last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period. Although those ‘against Christ’ formed a composite “antichrist,” many individual antichrists pretended to worship God but “were not of our sort” and abandoned true Christianity. We are glad that the departure or expulsion of such ones today prevents corruption of the congregation.


When a christian leaves the organization and joins another, they are choosing not to be associated with Jehovahs Witnesses. They are not assumed to be part of the antichrist though. We simply view them no longer as one of us because they have disassociated themselves from the congregation by their own choice.
There is always room for such a person to return, but an anti christ would not return, so there is a difference between them on that count.

 

[savagewind]

Would you like to know what we 'actually' teach?

John is prophesying the coming of the AntiChrist. The antichrist, not individual christians who may come and go from the congregation.

1John 2:18*Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19*They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort. 20*And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. 21*I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth.


And here are a list of references on the phrase 'went out from among us'


IT-1 p116
John specifically mentions apostates as among those of the antichrist by referring to those who “went out from us,” abandoning the Christian congregation. (1Jo 2:18,*19) It therefore includes “the man of lawlessness” or “son of destruction” described by Paul, as well as the “false teachers” Peter denounces for forming destructive sects and who “disown even the owner that bought them.”—2Th 2:3-5; 2Pe 2:1


IT-2p95-96
Regarding the antichrist, he spoke very plainly. He said: “These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you.” (1Jo 2:26) These men were denying that Jesus Christ was the Son of God that had come in the flesh. He explained that they were once with the congregation but had gone out in order that it might be shown that they were not of “our sort.” (2:19) They were not the loyal, loving sort that “have faith to the preserving alive of the soul” but were the sort “that shrink back to destruction.”—Heb 10:39.


WT 1986 p13-14
Guard Against Apostasy
20 John now warns against antichrists. (Read 1*John 2:18,*19.) He reminds fellow believers that from the apostles they “heard that antichrist is coming.” The appearance of “many antichrists” proved that it was the “last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period. Although those ‘against Christ’ formed a composite “antichrist,” many individual antichrists pretended to worship God but “were not of our sort” and abandoned true Christianity. We are glad that the departure or expulsion of such ones today prevents corruption of the congregation.


When a christian leaves the organization and joins another, they are choosing not to be associated with Jehovahs Witnesses. They are not assumed to be part of the antichrist though. We simply view them no longer as one of us because they have disassociated themselves from the congregation by their own choice.
There is always room for such a person to return, but an anti christ would not return, so there is a difference between them on that count.

Thank you Pegg. I seem to have read it is also used for people who leave and speak contrary to the governing body. Has 1 John 2:19 never been used to describe people like that?

 

[psychoslice]

I understand this. Nobody can know God for us. And YHVH speaks to us through the scriptures. Is that correct?

Yes that's it, most go to church and listen to the sermons and just belivevwhqt is said to them, but most won't go beyond the sermon or evn the words from scripture. Its a known fact that scripture has been manipulated over many years, for this reason we need to be spiritually decerned, we heed to meditate on the words and let the words be interpreted from within, this is true religion. But sadly those who do go within are seen by other members as being under Satan's spell, when in truth they are the ones under his spell, Satan of course meaning their own ego's.

 

[Pegg]

Thank you Pegg. I seem to have read it is also used for people who leave and speak contrary to the governing body. Has 1 John 2:19 never been used to describe people like that?

the verse is describing 'apostates'

those who were once taught by the apostles but who then twisted the meaning of scripture and began to form their own sects within christianity....and there are over 30,000 of them today!

Acts 20:28*Pay attention to yourselves (teachers of the congregation, ie apostles/eders/annointed) and to all the flock (christians of the congregation), among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. 29*I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30*and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.


So the verse applies to apostates who were appointed men within the congregations, but who rejected the apostles teachings and formed their own twisted teachings in order to draw christians away from the truth.

A christian who is not an overseer can also do this. But someone who decides to leave the congregation is not necessarily an apostate as i've said previously.

 

[savagewind]

The us as in "they went out from us" are all those who trust God alone for their salvation. One God. One salvation. It is what being a virgin means regarding Rev 14:4.

 

[savagewind]

Jehovah's Witnesses teach many salvations. There is the salvation the ancient Israelites enjoyed. There is the salvation of Christ through Israel. There is the salvation through man (Noah and others) There is the salvation which results from baptism. There is salvation through knowledge and understanding. There is the salvation through the word of scripture. There is salvation by the calling out of Babylon the Great (this occured for the Bible Students from whom the JWs came). There is salvation by being chosen by Jesus for a special work. And now there is salvation by believing in the faithful and discreet slave. Did I miss any?

But really there is only one salvation. It is YHVH. One God. One salvation.

 

[Pegg]

Jehovah's Witnesses teach many salvations. There is the salvation the ancient Israelites enjoyed. There is the salvation of Christ through Israel. There is the salvation through man (Noah and others) There is the salvation which results from baptism. There is salvation through knowledge and understanding. There is the salvation through the word of scripture. There is salvation by the calling out of Babylon the Great (this occured for the Bible Students from whom the JWs came). There is salvation by being chosen by Jesus for a special work. And now there is salvation by believing in the faithful and discreet slave. Did I miss any?

But really there is only one salvation. It is YHVH. One God. One salvation.

it was God who made all the above (and more) salvations possible.

 

[savagewind]

it was God who made all the above (and more) salvations possible.

I think it was God Who made everything possible. So you are admitting there are many salvations?

 

[savagewind]

Yehoshua meaning YHVH is salvation. One God. One Lord. One salvation. Believing in many salvations is like the Hindu belief in many gods I think.

Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life. He didn't say he is one way. He said the way, meaning there is only one way, according to him.

You believe the faithful and discreet slave who dispenses food is the way. But there are many scriptures that make it clear it is NOT about food. Food nowhere in scripture equals salvation.