Things that make you lose faith in humanity

[monta]

Not in the vocabulary where I come from XD. Besides that, is there any other word that basically sums up the anti-religious and anti-moral in one group?

Because you don't have a word to label your perception of a group of people you just randomly choose to co opt the word atheist ?

 

[Nepenthe]

Never heard of that, I'll check out the link.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure =O. I was a friend with an atheist in high school, actually, and he was an ok guy. Had some interesting conversations with him.
I notice that he was definitely more sexually active than any Christian I've ever seen (his first sexual encouter was at 6 years old according to him)...

Words. Fail. Me....
All I can say is that your friend's atheism has little to do with atheists anywhere else. Atheism is such a bare bones basic thing it really isn't much more complicated than the lack of a belief in God(s). That's it. Any moral or ethical or ideological structure is independent.

... that he was a bit of a slacker (no interest in actually doing his homework or taking notes), and little things like that.
Besides him, though, most atheists I met were total jerks, and hence I never really got to know them too well. (For example, there was one girl I remember from middle school who got in my face and told me I believed in a "santa claus story."

Yes, well, most people can be jerks regardless their religious or non-religious beliefs.

Which was of course taken as an insult, since santa is an anti-Christian false god invented by capitalism to encourage children to be materialistic.)

I'm still waiting for my talking Elmo doll!

I'm not quite sure what morals atheists break, I just know from what I hear them saying that they don't care for morals .

Aha... well, this atheist does have morals, and this atheist has arrived at these morals exclusive from religious arguments.

Not in the vocabulary where I come from XD. Besides that, is there any other word that basically sums up the anti-religious and anti-moral in one group?

Atheism has nothing to do with anti-religion or lack of morals or Republicanism or Socialism or Thatcherites or furries or _________.
You'd have to use a few words to describe someone who's anti-religious and anti-moral. Or a sentence. Or a paragraph.

 

[T-Dawg]

Because you don't have a word to label your perception of a group of people you just randomly choose to co opt the word atheist ?

For a good chunk of my life, most of those people were atheist. The term stuck.

Yes, well, most people can be jerks regardless their religious or non-religious beliefs.

I've heard this concept before, but it gets harder to remember every time I hear an atheist intentionally associating a bad person's behavior with their religion (particularly if they claim to be Christian).

I'm still waiting for my talking Elmo doll!

Um... this is sarcasm, right?

this atheist has arrived at these morals exclusive from religious arguments.

Then where do your morals come from if not religion? All morals come from either religion or man, neither of which the indepentent, intellectual atheist would listen to.

You'd have to use a few words to describe someone who's anti-religious and anti-moral. Or a sentence. Or a paragraph.

Anti-moralist? Jerk? Donkey-hole? I guess another word would work .

Erm, wait, how is the discussion of the definition of atheism even remotely close to the originaly conversation (that I don't like atheist who are only atheist so they don't have to deal with morals)?

 

[Nepenthe]

Um... this is sarcasm, right?

I'm deadly serious about muppets.

Then where do your morals come from if not religion? All morals come from either religion or man, neither of which the indepentent, intellectual atheist would listen to.
...
Erm, wait, how is the discussion of the definition of atheism even remotely close to the originaly conversation (that I don't like atheist who are only atheist so they don't have to deal with morals)?

Then back to atheism, theism and morality.
If God(s) are necessary to establish moral guidelines, we are compelled to obey Her moral edicts because she is omnipotent and omniscient. If that's the case, then Her morality is independent of anything "good"; the morals exist solely as a might-makes-right propositions and they have no objective validity.That deity's morality is similar to a dictator's and I may arrive at my secular morals to avoid the cruel and inhumane even if that cruelty is commanded by that particular God.

Or do we obey Her morals since She is intrinsically good? The problem with that is we'd have to derive what is good and not-good separately from God. We'd have to arrive at our own opinion of what constitutes morality as it would be based on our own experiences. And where is the room for God's morality in that scenario?

 

[T-Dawg]

the morals exist solely as a might-makes-right propositions and they have no objective validity.

What ISN'T a might makes right proposition? Everything I see is about might, including secular morals - for instance, culture says that stealing is wrong, but just to be extra sure no one gets away with stealing, they threaten to throw you in prison if you steal. I'm not disagreeing that stealing is wrong, but that is an example of using force to enforce one's morals. Why is it any different when God uses his power to tell us what our morals should be?

The problem with that is we'd have to derive what is good and not-good separately from God.

Why do we have to derive good and not good separately from God? I'm not particularly good in this area, but many people can gather all of their opinions and ideas of good and evil from their god(s).

We'd have to arrive at our own opinion of what constitutes morality as it would be based on our own experiences.

Ah, so that's where morals come from outside of religion. Experiences. So for example, I try to be nice to someone, and they start verbally using me, and I decide that it must be bad to try being nice? Or did you mean some different kind of experience?

 

[blackout]

Faith in humanity to do what?

I have total faith that humanity will keep on doing exacly what it's always done.

 

[Nepenthe]

What ISN'T a might makes right proposition? Everything I see is about might, including secular morals - for instance, culture says that stealing is wrong, but just to be extra sure no one gets away with stealing, they threaten to throw you in prison if you steal. I'm not disagreeing that stealing is wrong, but that is an example of using force to enforce one's morals. Why is it any different when God uses his power to tell us what our morals should be?

Of course a threat of punishment is an incentive to act morally, but the origin of that morality is what's in question. Say you accidentally wandered into a department store employee lounge and there was no one around, no security guards, no security cameras, and there was someone's open purse and wallet visible on a table. How would you react? Would you require God's morality to stop you from stealing the wallet and/or purse? I wouldn't- it's called a conscience. My actions may impact others in a negative manner, and it's in everyone's best interest to abstain from infringing on other's property. To act contrary to this morality is to threaten basic social and cultural cohesion. I'm an atheist, my morals are the product of reasoning and a conscience that was likely hardwired through millions of years of evolution. Altruism has a long history of study amongst anthropologists; altruism is present in many animal species, and is particularly evident in humans even when in conflict with kin selection.

Why do we have to derive good and not good separately from God? I'm not particularly good in this area, but many people can gather all of their opinions and ideas of good and evil from their god(s).

I'll quote Bertrand Russell since he said it better than I ever could:

"If you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, you are then in the situation: is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for god Himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that god is good. If you are going to say, as theologians do, that God is good, you must then say that right and wrong have some meaning which is independent of God's fiat, because God's fiat's are good and not bad independent of the mere fact that He made them. If you are going to say that, you will then have to say that it is not only through God that right and wrong came into being, but that they are in their essence logically anterior to God." ​

Ah, so that's where morals come from outside of religion. Experiences. So for example, I try to be nice to someone, and they start verbally using me, and I decide that it must be bad to try being nice? Or did you mean some different kind of experience?

I mean historical experience, cultural experiences that shape societies and morality, and evolutionary reasons that have resulted in the complexities of human morality.

Think of morality this way: if you were to change your mind and became an atheist, wahtever the circumstances, you were no longer a theist. Do you actually think you'd just throw away your moral foundations even though you no longer believed they were God given? Wouldn't you pretty much live your life as you always have? Morals are independent of theism and don't require religion at all.

 

[T-Dawg]

Say you accidentally wandered into a department store employee lounge and there was no one around, no security guards, no security cameras, and there was someone's open purse and wallet visible on a table. How would you react?

What was I doing in the employee lounge?

I wouldn't- it's called a conscience.

From my experience (and from what common sense tells me), most people don't have a conscience. Conscience is to me as God is to atheist. It's not real. The only thing standing in between you and bad deeds is God, law enforcement, and the morals adults (usually parents) ingrain into you from birth.

"If you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, you are then in the situation: is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for god Himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that god is good. If you are going to say, as theologians do, that God is good, you must then say that right and wrong have some meaning which is independent of God's fiat, because God's fiat's are good and not bad independent of the mere fact that He made them. If you are going to say that, you will then have to say that it is not only through God that right and wrong came into being, but that they are in their essence logically anterior to God."

I have no idea what you just said . Could you rephrase that or something please?

Do you actually think you'd just throw away your moral foundations even though you no longer believed they were God given?

Some of them. But probably not most of the foundations, it's too ingrained in there. I simply can't comprehend the purpose of, say, stealing or lying. A person could walk up and tell me about how they shoplifted some great new electronic device the other day, and I'd just look at them like they're crazy (because they are) - "What's the point? Why would you steal it when you could just buy it? Or why would you want it at all? What's wrong with the material possessions I already have?" Or someone could describe their sexual life, and I would think "What the heck is wrong with this person? Why do they want to have kids at such a young age?"
So yeh, I doubt my moral foundations would be very shaken, although I doubt I can speak for most Christians. Most if not all people (particularly those constrained by the Social Hive Mind) don't have a conscience.

 

[Nepenthe]

What was I doing in the employee lounge?

I don't know, but I'm calling security!

From my experience (and from what common sense tells me), most people don't have a conscience. Conscience is to me as God is to atheist. It's not real. The only thing standing in between you and bad deeds is God, law enforcement, and the morals adults (usually parents) ingrain into you from birth.

I can attest from my personal life and that of the non-theists around me that a conscience is quite real. Also, I can simply point to the prison population as evidence that atheists are not particularly abundant there, and that theists make up the majority of criminals.

I have no idea what you just said . Could you rephrase that or something please?

Bertrand Russell said it not I!
If you believe there is a right and there's a wrong then the question is whether that is determined by God or not.
If God is responsible for what's right and wrong then for God there can't be a difference between right and wrong; morals are separate from God and God cannot be considered good.
If God is considered good, then morals have to exist independent of God's will because God's morality is good independent of the fact She made morals.

Kai Nielsen has written extensively on ethics without God, though he's not necessarily an easy into' to the subject. Here's a good debate where he discusses how religion isn't necessary for morality.

Some of them. But probably not most of the foundations, it's too ingrained in there. I simply can't comprehend the purpose of, say, stealing or lying. A person could walk up and tell me about how they shoplifted some great new electronic device the other day, and I'd just look at them like they're crazy (because they are) - "What's the point? Why would you steal it when you could just buy it? Or why would you want it at all? What's wrong with the material possessions I already have?" Or someone could describe their sexual life, and I would think "What the heck is wrong with this person? Why do they want to have kids at such a young age?"
So yeh, I doubt my moral foundations would be very shaken, although I doubt I can speak for most Christians. Most if not all people (particularly those constrained by the Social Hive Mind) don't have a conscience.

See? That's how the godless are capable of morality as well.

 

[Lisa S]

Then where do your morals come from if not religion? All morals come from either religion or man, neither of which the indepentent, intellectual atheist would listen to.

I don't like atheist who are only atheist so they don't have to deal with morals)?

I doubt even your own morals come from religion. Almost all Xians pick and chose the parts of their religion they follow. Many Xians decry homosexuality because it's called an abomination in the bible, but then so is shellfish and no Xians care about that. 'Honoring the Sabbath' is a commandment but no one takes that serious anymore, yet murder was outlawed by every society for much of our recent history. So how do you pick and choose which parts are important? Clearly it's not from 'god' but from our own morals and societal standards.

I have a rather hard time believing anyone ever said that to you. If you can honestly say you can't understand why someone would refrain from murder and rape without the fear of gods, then I find the prospect that if you ever have doubts about your god you might kill someone rather frighting.

I find it rather insulting the number of times I have heard Xians say "if you don't believe in god why aren't you out raping and stealing?" Maybe because personal responsibility tends to be a pretty big thing thing with most nonbelievers. You might be able to ask your invisible overseer to forgive the horrible things you do and then declare that nothing is your fault because 'it's all gods will', but me, I have to answer for my actions.

 

[T-Dawg]

Also, I can simply point to the prison population as evidence that atheists are not particularly abundant there, and that theists make up the majority of criminals.

Last I checked, most atheists also contended that the majority of America (about 80%) is Christian. Maybe there's more theists in prison because there are more theists in general, at least according to what the government tells us?

See? That's how the godless are capable of morality as well.

But most people don't have that, especially if they weren't raised in religious homes. If your parents aren't bent on beating certain morals into your brain at a very young age, they won't stick there.

I doubt even your own morals come from religion. Almost all Xians pick and chose the parts of their religion they follow. Many Xians decry homosexuality because it's called an abomination in the bible, but then so is shellfish and no Xians care about that. 'Honoring the Sabbath' is a commandment but no one takes that serious anymore, yet murder was outlawed by every society for much of our recent history. So how do you pick and choose which parts are important? Clearly it's not from 'god' but from our own morals and societal standards.

Never thought about it that way. I try to follow everything the Bible says, but usually I fail miserably (I fail particuarly with the Sabbath. Admittedly, I have a tendency to switch between Sunday being the Sabbath and Saturday being the Sabbath depending on which is more convenient at the time.). Er, one question though...

but then so is shellfish and no Xians care about that.

Er... there's a passage in the Bible stating that eating shellfish is an abomination? Good thing I don't like seafood... (or was that a type and you meant to say "selfish"?)

I find it rather insulting the number of times I have heard Xians say "if you don't believe in god why aren't you out raping and stealing?"

I did not say this nor was I trying to, and nor have I heard any other Christian say anything like that. My original statement was that I do not like atheists who are only atheists so that they don't have to deal with morals. It had nothing to do with atheists being inherently anti-moral, I don't even remember where that debate came from .

You might be able to ask your invisible overseer to forgive the horrible things you do and then declare that nothing is your fault because 'it's all gods will',

Those that do this are not showing true repentance, and thus will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God only responds to authentic repentance (this is a fact that many people, including Christians, seem to forget all too often).

but me, I have to answer for my actions.

To whom will you answer to? I'm confused at this part .

 

[Nepenthe]

Also, I can simply point to the prison population as evidence that atheists are not particularly abundant there, and that theists make up the majority of criminals.

Last I checked, most atheists also contended that the majority of America (about 80%) is Christian. Maybe there's more theists in prison because there are more theists in general, at least according to what the government tells us?

Sure, but the point is that if morality is intrinsically tied to religion then the prison population should have a disproportionate number of atheists. And it doesn't: 3% to 8% of Americans describe themselves as non-theists/atheists, while only 0.1% in prison are identified as non-theists/atheists.

See? That's how the godless are capable of morality as well.

But most people don't have that, especially if they weren't raised in religious homes. If your parents aren't bent on beating certain morals into your brain at a very young age, they won't stick there.

But regardless the manner those morals are instilled, the point is that it doesn't require a deity to do so. Again, if being raised in a non-religious environment meant a greater chance of immoral behavior it would be reflected statistically. And it isn't.

The rest of your post was addressing someone else so I'll stop here.

 

[blackout]

I find it rather insulting the number of times I have heard Xians say "if you don't believe in god why aren't you out raping and stealing?" Maybe because personal responsibility tends to be a pretty big thing thing with most nonbelievers. You might be able to ask your invisible overseer to forgive the horrible things you do and then declare that nothing is your fault because 'it's all gods will', but me, I have to answer for my actions.

lol. That is a really weird thing to say.

 

[J Bryson]

My response in my atheist days was "So you're saying that if there was no God, you'd be out raping and stealing?"

 

[monta]

But regardless the manner those morals are instilled, the point is that it doesn't require a deity to do so. Again, if being raised in a non-religious environment meant a greater chance of immoral behavior it would be reflected statistically. And it isn't.

I agree with you, but I would say that with my limited knowledge of the american prison system,( I saw shawshank redemption twice) if I was incarcerated I would definitely be I<3 Jesus, why paint a target on yourself?

 

[Nepenthe]

I agree with you, but I would say that with my limited knowledge of the american prison system,( I saw shawshank redemption twice) if I was incarcerated I would definitely be I<3 Jesus, why paint a target on yourself?

Well, I guess Shawshank' is pretty close.
The statistics as to the religious/non-religious affliation of prisoners is gathered before incarceration and anonymously, so I think the numbers may certainly be skewed for those who want to avoid problems, but not as much as if the info' were gathered after they were already in.

If jailed, I'd claim to be a Scientologist if only 'cause I live in S. Cali. I want my one call to Jenna Elfman!!!!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

1. What made you lose faith in humanity?

This site, often and regularly.

 

[Breathe]

This site, often and regularly.

Somebody needs a hug!
Feel better now?

 

[Erebus]

Plenty of things make me lose faith in humanity. On a macro scale, events such as the holocaust, terrorism, propaganda, bigotry, cattle mentality and X Factor make me sick to the stomach. On a micro scale I find cowardice, backstabbing, rudeness, arrogance and tracksuits will quickly put me off individuals. Some specific events get to me as well, things like all the jokes and supposedly humorous pictures about the columbine massacre or the murder of Sophie Lancaster. They really annoy me.
On the other hand I find that all it takes to restore my faith in humans is something as small as kindness from a stranger or those odd occasions when somebody you know shows that they are capable of truly honourable deeds. It doesn't happen often unfortunately, but it's always pleasant when it does happen.

On a related note, I will be willing to forgive humanity any of it's flaws if Gerard Way, Simon Cowell, Britney Spears, David Walliams and virtually all rappers are executed on live TV. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Although I am constantly let down by the inhumane practices and willful ignorance and stupidity of many in the human race,
I have never lost hope in humanity as a whole.

Tumbleweed,
The eternally optimistic hippie.