Think ahead 25 years - Fourth Wave Feminism?

[MysticSang'ha]

You just hopped out of your time machine in the year 2038. There's rumblings of a Fourth Wave by feminist writers here and there. Some Third Wavers are shaking their heads saying the talking points are merely extensions of Third Wave.

What do you predict will be the issues a Fourth Wave might tackle?

 

[Sunstone]

Perhaps a Fourth Wave might, among other things, tackle the biological and other differences between men and women that either naturally result -- or, at least, strongly encourage -- inequalities in the treatment of men and women.

That is, in my opinion, absolute equality between men and women in every respect fails to take into account such things as men and women make unequal contributions to reproduction. Women must invest more time and resources into reproduction than men. So, is it really fair to say that the sexes are, or ought to be, absolutely equal when it comes to reproductive matters? I think not. But that raises the question of how one decides what inequalities are fair, and what inequalities are not.

In other words, I would suggest that a Fourth Wave might move beyond equality to fairness. Of course, many Third Wave Feminists might say this was already being dealt with in Third Wave Feminism. But I'm not so sure, myself.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Perhaps a Fourth Wave might, among other things, tackle the biological and other differences between men and women that either naturally result -- or, at least, strongly encourage -- inequalities in the treatment of men and women.

That is, in my opinion, absolute equality between men and women in every respect fails to take into account such things as men and women make unequal contributions to reproduction. Women must invest more time and resources into reproduction than men. So, is it really fair to say that the sexes are, or ought to be, absolutely equal when it comes to reproductive matters? I think not. But that raises the question of how one decides what inequalities are fair, and what inequalities are not.

In other words, I would suggest that a Fourth Wave might move beyond equality to fairness. Of course, many Third Wave Feminists might say this was already being dealt with in Third Wave Feminism. But I'm not so sure, myself.

I think this is a fair bet, Phil. When it comes to reproductive health, breast cancer in men (and they do occur, but unfortunately horribly stigmatized), breastfeeding right now debated on whether it's a right or a privilege, and the presence of babies and dependents in the workplace. There are certain functional differences when it comes to the reproductive organs themselves that I can foresee being examined more closely and the ethical framework of what is fair. Men overall are not directly imacted by uterine and cervical health in the way women are impacted. Women are not directly impacted by prostate and testicular health in the way men are impacted.

Also consider the awareness campaigns that hopefully will continue to increase benefit and protection for transgendered individuals. I remember even some Third Wave feminists who balk at the notion that a transgendered woman is not considered a "real woman", in spite of her gender identity and feeling trapped in a man's body with male genitalia. I think the introduction of queer rights as an important overlap of feminism with GLTBQIs rights forces feminism to give ample consideration on gender fluidity with the transgendered and intersexed individuals.

I predict in time we will see a portion of transgendered feminist writers who will be part of the pioneers of Fourth Wave. As the introduction of lesbian and bisexual female writers, the riot grrrl movement, globalism, and ecofeminism as distinctive of Third Wave, my first guess is listening to the observations of feminism and what it means through the lens of the transgendered. Perhaps continuing to break down stereotypical and oppressive gender roles can we continue progressing forward toward equality....or as you mentioned....fairness.

 

[Sunstone]

I think you touch on something that will be quite important to Fourth Wave Feminism -- and that is taking the message global. I recently read that the best way to lift a whole family out of poverty is to empower women. If there's any truth to that, then the world is ripe for a feminist movement that has as one of its directions the world wide liberation of women and families from poverty.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think you touch on something that will be quite important to Fourth Wave Feminism -- and that is taking the message global. I recently read that the best way to lift a whole family out of poverty is to empower women. If there's any truth to that, then the world is ripe for a feminist movement that has as one of its directions the world wide liberation of women and families from poverty.

I know I'd posted it before, but I'm a fan for The Girl Effect. I think the organization (which I believe was founded by Warren Buffett) introduces another aspect to the globalization of feminism. It touches on a nerve and a recent history of our own country. Many women in my grandparents generation got married at 13 and began having children shortly after.

Here is the link: The simple case for investing in girls

[youtube]1e8xgF0JtVg[/youtube]
The girl effect: The clock is ticking - YouTube

It's still a problem in many parts of the world, and we're beginning to see female empowerment and opportunity very differently now. Especially in regards to her health.

 

[Sunstone]

By the way, the original reason for the statutory rape laws in the US was to prevent girls from being married off at an early age -- at least, before they had completed high school. Just a point of trivia.

 

[BrokenHearted2]

Perhaps also there will be more opportunities for young boys and young men to experience an immersion into a female dominated work environment as part of a future awareness campaign. Going to nursing school in the 80's was a real eye opener to me. I went the year after high school and I carpooled to classes with a Grandmother of a friend. Hearing her and the rest of the class talk candidly about sex, husbands, men, dating, and other topics was a real eye opener. Years later I would work with a group of men building outreach centers and an orphanage in Mexico as a missionary. As I learned how to frame walls, mix concrete/mortar, etc. I realized that men have NO CLUE what women really think or talk about when men aren't around in any significant numbers.

There is an enlightenment most men are robbed of experiencing. Working for and along side a strong outspoken woman who commands the respect of doctors and other team members around them is a strong life lesson. Knowing that kind of strong, assertive, and smart woman has forever altered my concepts of beauty and personal attraction.

 

[Sunstone]

Perhaps also there will be more opportunities for young boys and young men to experience an immersion into a female dominated work environment as part of a future awareness campaign. Going to nursing school in the 80's was a real eye opener to me. I went the year after high school and I carpooled to classes with a Grandmother of a friend. Hearing her and the rest of the class talk candidly about sex, husbands, men, dating, and other topics was a real eye opener. Years later I would work with a group of men building outreach centers and an orphanage in Mexico as a missionary. As I learned how to frame walls, mix concrete/mortar, etc. I realized that men have NO CLUE what women really think or talk about when men aren't around in any significant numbers.

There is an enlightenment most men are robbed of experiencing. Working for and along side a strong outspoken woman who commands the respect of doctors and other team members around them is a strong life lesson. Knowing that kind of strong, assertive, and smart woman has forever altered my concepts of beauty and personal attraction.

Excellent post!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Perhaps also there will be more opportunities for young boys and young men to experience an immersion into a female dominated work environment as part of a future awareness campaign. Going to nursing school in the 80's was a real eye opener to me. I went the year after high school and I carpooled to classes with a Grandmother of a friend. Hearing her and the rest of the class talk candidly about sex, husbands, men, dating, and other topics was a real eye opener. Years later I would work with a group of men building outreach centers and an orphanage in Mexico as a missionary. As I learned how to frame walls, mix concrete/mortar, etc. I realized that men have NO CLUE what women really think or talk about when men aren't around in any significant numbers.

There is an enlightenment most men are robbed of experiencing. Working for and along side a strong outspoken woman who commands the respect of doctors and other team members around them is a strong life lesson. Knowing that kind of strong, assertive, and smart woman has forever altered my concepts of beauty and personal attraction.

Thanks for posting that. Very enlightening.

Might I also add that more males who enter the workforce of traditionally female-dominated women will alter the stereotype of - what I've called recently - the male stoic Marlboro Man but overly sexualized horn-dog as the definition of masculinity. There are still discriminatory practices against males who apply for jobs in child care because the fear is that they're sexual predators. I've hired two males so far in our company in the dance studio. I cringe when I hear advice given by other studio owners that I should get background checks for them, but no mention of background checks of our female employees.

I usually bark back at them asking them what makes them think that female employees are magically less capable of abusing children than males? If I'm doing background checks, it's for everybody regardless of gender. They tend to shrug their shoulders and say that it's just the way it is, and I say it doesn't have to be. Sorry, but I don't play the game of bigotry if I can help it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I love the girl effect video! It's the main reason I'm a member of UNICEF

 

[Alceste]

Personally, I think the combined issues of climate change, peak oil and financial collapse that will dominate the political landscape for the rest of our natural lives will be prominent features of any upcoming wave of feminism. Perhaps the feminists of the future will (ironically) return to the idea that they are the glue that holds communities together and keeps them strong and well-fed. They will probably be transition town advocates and devout foodies, spending most of their time cooking and gardening. They will be more sensitive, compassionate, responsive, caring and family oriented due to their innate pragmatism. They will give their utmost care and consideration especially to children, who they will recognize as the lifeboats that will bear the responsibility of rescuing civilization from complete disintegration.

The big innovation will be that roughly half of them will be biologically male and nobody will notice or care.

 

[DallasApple]

Personally, I think the combined issues of climate change, peak oil and financial collapse that will dominate the political landscape for the rest of our natural lives will be prominent features of any upcoming wave of feminism. Perhaps the feminists of the future will (ironically) return to the idea that they are the glue that holds communities together and keeps them strong and well-fed. They will probably be transition town advocates and devout foodies, spending most of their time cooking and gardening. They will be more sensitive, compassionate, responsive, caring and family oriented due to their innate pragmatism. They will give their utmost care and consideration especially to children, who they will recognize as the lifeboats that will bear the responsibility of rescuing civilization from complete disintegration.

The big innovation will be that roughly half of them will be biologically male and nobody will notice or care.

HA HA HA!!!!!

But I agree.

Oh and POT!

 

[BrokenHearted2]

Excellent post!

Thank you Sunstone!!

Thanks for posting that. Very enlightening.

Might I also add that more males who enter the workforce of traditionally female-dominated women will alter the stereotype of - what I've called recently - the male stoic Marlboro Man but overly sexualized horn-dog as the definition of masculinity. There are still discriminatory practices against males who apply for jobs in child care because the fear is that they're sexual predators. I've hired two males so far in our company in the dance studio. I cringe when I hear advice given by other studio owners that I should get background checks for them, but no mention of background checks of our female employees.

I usually bark back at them asking them what makes them think that female employees are magically less capable of abusing children than males? If I'm doing background checks, it's for everybody regardless of gender. They tend to shrug their shoulders and say that it's just the way it is, and I say it doesn't have to be. Sorry, but I don't play the game of bigotry if I can help it.

Your thinking is right, my mother was the abusive person in our family's past.

Personally, I think the combined issues of climate change, peak oil and financial collapse that will dominate the political landscape for the rest of our natural lives will be prominent features of any upcoming wave of feminism. Perhaps the feminists of the future will (ironically) return to the idea that they are the glue that holds communities together and keeps them strong and well-fed. They will probably be transition town advocates and devout foodies, spending most of their time cooking and gardening. They will be more sensitive, compassionate, responsive, caring and family oriented due to their innate pragmatism. They will give their utmost care and consideration especially to children, who they will recognize as the lifeboats that will bear the responsibility of rescuing civilization from complete disintegration.

The big innovation will be that roughly half of them will be biologically male and nobody will notice or care.

You have drawn the perfect picture of my Kentucky Grandmother. She is outspoken, strong willed and spent a lot of time hunting, canning and gardening. At 5' tall she's a force to be reckoned with. She was always a better shot than my Grandpa and let him know that often. Anyone from the south (the US south that is) knows what kind of woman I'm talking about. Perfectly capable of opening her own doors, yet every bit a lady who deserves to have the door opened for her out of respect.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Personally, I think the combined issues of climate change, peak oil and financial collapse that will dominate the political landscape for the rest of our natural lives will be prominent features of any upcoming wave of feminism. Perhaps the feminists of the future will (ironically) return to the idea that they are the glue that holds communities together and keeps them strong and well-fed. They will probably be transition town advocates and devout foodies, spending most of their time cooking and gardening. They will be more sensitive, compassionate, responsive, caring and family oriented due to their innate pragmatism. They will give their utmost care and consideration especially to children, who they will recognize as the lifeboats that will bear the responsibility of rescuing civilization from complete disintegration.

The big innovation will be that roughly half of them will be biologically male and nobody will notice or care.

Interesting!! A very good point that I hadn't considered in this discussion.

I'm wondering if writers like Sallie McFague will get more attention, or that ecofeminism will become more prominent as providing the fuel behind a Fourth Wave.

 

[Alceste]

Interesting!! A very good point that I hadn't considered in this discussion.

I'm wondering if writers like Sallie McFague will get more attention, or that ecofeminism will become more prominent as providing the fuel behind a Fourth Wave.

I think the transition movement is attracting quite a lot of environmentalists. We've basically given up trying to save the world on a large scale (it's too late) and are trying to figure out how our families and communities will survive in an increasingly hotter, more violent and less stable climate. Particularly without the advantage of fossil fuels and cheap credit.

Welcome | Transition Network

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think the transition movement is attracting quite a lot of environmentalists. We've basically given up trying to save the world on a large scale (it's too late) and are trying to figure out how our families and communities will survive in an increasingly hotter, more violent and less stable climate. Particularly without the advantage of fossil fuels and cheap credit.

Welcome | Transition Network

Ah yes. I checked into this organization a couple years ago - I think. I remember looking through the website and it seems to have expanded a bit. I like it.

 

[Alceste]

Ah yes. I checked into this organization a couple years ago - I think. I remember looking through the website and it seems to have expanded a bit. I like it.

Yeah, it's a movement I got involved with in the UK. We did food stuff, mainly. Over here it's harder to organize because these damn hippy organic farmers have been doing it already for decades. They don't even seem to know it's a "thing". Lol.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah, it's a movement I got involved with in the UK. We did food stuff, mainly. Over here it's harder to organize because these damn hippy organic farmers have been doing it already for decades. They don't even seem to know it's a "thing". Lol.

Around here, there are a few districts in St. Louis that are catching on to the idea. I go to the Grove on occasion, downtown is becoming much more loft-friendly for residents, some communities around here that have been vacant for a long time will rent very cheaply to local artists as live/work arrangements, many more bike paths are being built every year, and more districts are allowing for backyard chickens and ruminants.

One district in particular has Schlafly Bottleworks as it's centralized market. The brewery is a favorite in Maplewood, but of course the family itself has a history with feminism with their matriarch being Phyllis herself.

I swear, I have always wanted to meet that woman since her family is from the area and they contribute a LOT to the local economy. I keep thinking one of these days our paths will cross. She has no idea what kind of influence she's had in my life, but probably not the kind she might be favoring when it comes to feminism. LOL

 

[Penumbra]

You just hopped out of your time machine in the year 2038. There's rumblings of a Fourth Wave by feminist writers here and there. Some Third Wavers are shaking their heads saying the talking points are merely extensions of Third Wave.

What do you predict will be the issues a Fourth Wave might tackle?

I'm not really sure what the primary issues will be.

I do believe that the differences between waves will become less definable with each subsequent wave. Like if you drop an object into water, it may make a large wave followed by some smaller waves and then it sort of breaks down into just a cluster of motion compared to the original stillness of the water surface.

If first wave was about a gross inequality in political rights centered around the right to vote, and second wave was about a few topics like improvements in women entering the workforce and reproductive rights (a less focused wave than the first one), and third wave was about focusing more on women of color and other demographics, focusing more on including GLBTQ people, being more open to the idea of seeing femininity as a source of power rather than something artificial, and being more aware due to the effects of globalization that women in difference places around the world are all on very different stages of attaining freedom (an even less focused and definable wave than the second one), then I'd imagine that fourth wave would be even less focused than the previous one. Each wave seems to multiply the focus, multiply the differences. As progress is made, the changes become finer.

I think ideas that people suggested so far are valid. The difference between equality and fairness is certainly a valid topic to consider, as well as ecological focuses, among some of the other ideas given. I'm doubtful that there would be a clearly defined difference, due to each wave being more complex and multifaceted than the previous one, due to having more sources and more areas of concern to build on.

 

[Penumbra]

I think this is a fair bet, Phil. When it comes to reproductive health, breast cancer in men (and they do occur, but unfortunately horribly stigmatized), breastfeeding right now debated on whether it's a right or a privilege, and the presence of babies and dependents in the workplace. There are certain functional differences when it comes to the reproductive organs themselves that I can foresee being examined more closely and the ethical framework of what is fair. Men overall are not directly imacted by uterine and cervical health in the way women are impacted. Women are not directly impacted by prostate and testicular health in the way men are impacted.

Also consider the awareness campaigns that hopefully will continue to increase benefit and protection for transgendered individuals. I remember even some Third Wave feminists who balk at the notion that a transgendered woman is not considered a "real woman", in spite of her gender identity and feeling trapped in a man's body with male genitalia. I think the introduction of queer rights as an important overlap of feminism with GLTBQIs rights forces feminism to give ample consideration on gender fluidity with the transgendered and intersexed individuals.

I predict in time we will see a portion of transgendered feminist writers who will be part of the pioneers of Fourth Wave. As the introduction of lesbian and bisexual female writers, the riot grrrl movement, globalism, and ecofeminism as distinctive of Third Wave, my first guess is listening to the observations of feminism and what it means through the lens of the transgendered. Perhaps continuing to break down stereotypical and oppressive gender roles can we continue progressing forward toward equality....or as you mentioned....fairness.

I view the alignment of GBLTQ rights and feminism as being a fairly definable difference between third and second wave. Much of the dislike of trans people by feminists seems to be contained within the second wave, with third wave being more comfortable with the idea.

There already do exist some transfeminist writers. I read some of the blogs at Freethought Blogs, a large multi-author site that tends to focus on the intersection of atheism/skepticism and feminism (I've gotta love that combination, right?), including dealing with sexism within atheist movements/organizations, among other types of intersections like the Black Skeptics blog on the site. At least two of the blogs there are by trans women, with one of them in particular writing a lot about the intersection of feminism and trans issues.

I think one of the most valuable perspectives that trans people can add to feminism is the fact that, if they transitioned from one role to another, they experienced life in the role of both sexes. Usually, women experience society only as women, and men experience society only as men, but trans people are like their own "control groups", where the same person can discuss how they personally were treated differently as they presented their self as one sex or the other.

For example, I've seen trans women describe how when they were presenting as male, women were more likely to view them as a subtle threat, and were much more open after the transition when the trans woman was presenting as female. Or how being male allowed them to easily be heard in conversations, but after transitioning to female, men as a general rule in a group conversation tend to view their opinion as less valuable in a conversation, or cut them off while speaking more, even though nothing about the person's knowledge or qualifications changed. Those are some unique perspectives, that basically include a control group of their own self, that only trans people can describe.

Trans children are also an interesting topic. Some old-school therapists are still basically in favor of reparative therapy; that a male child should be given traditionally male toys and instructed to play with boys, and vice versa, in order to try to avoid the outcome of transsexualism, while other thereapists are of course in favor of allowing the child to express herself or himself as the child wants, and letting the chips fall where they may. It's also observed that parents are more likely to bring gender non-conforming boys to therapy than gender non-conforming girls, because tomboyish behavior in girls is often viewed as acceptable, or even desirable, while feminine behavior in boys is often viewed as a downgrade, or grossly inappropriate. That in and of itself says something about how society views the value of stereotypical masculinity and femininity.