"Think of the wives!"

[Aquitaine]

Sounds like they must feel like they cant trust their husbands which is unfortunate.But their personal problem not yours.

Exactly. After all, isn't trust supposed to be a vital part of any relationship?

Alceste, I hope you do kick-*** with it and end up running the show.

 

[Alceste]

In my last position before I retired all the best departmental managers were women as were the administrators. ( my opinion , and excluding myself)
To balance things one of the worst was also a woman.
After I left the Principal was sacked, when the finances went pear shaped, and a woman was appointed in his place. The turn round has been swift, complete and astonishing in its depth.

The unions in the UK are almost wimps these days, and have lost the ability to win most of their petty battles.

However even when women get powerful positions and do a good job, they are almost never paid the top rate.

I have no Idea what you are doing... but in most respects we all have to do the job and to keep our heads down till we have established a power base, that applies to both men and women in almost any capacity.

Well, that's the perk of being in the union - assuming you can get them to let you in without a penis, everybody gets paid the same rate for the same job.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm pretty hot, and I'm also really nice. Some guys assume that's a sexual invitation and are outraged to find out it isn't.

I'm afraid this just isn't clear enough without pics. "Hot" is a pretty subjective term. You're going to at least have to provide more details about your appearance before I can determing whether you are truly being judged on your appearance or it's all in your head and you really do just suck at your job.........

 

[lewisnotmiller]

My experience are that ********* are the loudest, and there are a lot of sheep in the world. So it's pretty common to get environments where the ********* can make you believe the world is FULL of *********. But my experience is that the world is NOT full of *********. At least, not completely.

And gender barriers in any direction will NEVER be broken down without some people being willing to ignore the *********, and maybe convince one or two sheep not to be sheep.

For some reason, in my head, this is reminding me of Team America and the chat about *******, c*cks and ********...

*shrugs*

Best take it with a grain of salt, that being the case.
And...erm...hoping this is legible despite the auto-censor.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well, that's the perk of being in the union - assuming you can get them to let you in without a penis, everybody gets paid the same rate for the same job.

I was never in a union. I always negotiated my own pay and conditions.
No doubt I always benefited from what had gone before, and the struggles others have had, and won.

However union Demarcation of Jobs kept womens pay far lower than that of men for very many years. And established a trend that still exists today. in reality what is perceived as womens jobs are paid less.

In my last position I had every job in my department regraded upward during my first two years. This was not always popular when some position held by women ended up on the higher grades. Fortunately the college union rep was in my department and as a female was one of the beneficiaries.

 

[Alceste]

I was never in a union. I always negotiated my own pay and conditions.
No doubt I always benefited from what had gone before, and the struggles others have had, and won.

However union Demarcation of Jobs kept womens pay far lower than that of men for very many years. And established a trend that still exists today. in reality what is perceived as womens jobs are paid less.

In my last position I had every job in my department regraded upward during my first two years. This was not always popular when some position held by women ended up on the higher grades. Fortunately the college union rep was in my department and as a female was one of the beneficiaries.

Yeah, that still happens to some extent. Some jobs pay around 10 bucks an hour, and you find a lot of women in those jobs, and others pay 30-35 per hour - mostly going to men. But the people in each job, regardless of gender, are earning the same dough.

 

[DallasApple]

Yeah, that's what I think too. I can empathize with her position - she used to do similar work and has been a stay-at-home mom running a craft business on the side for about ten years. She's not very happy with her situation and her self esteem has taken a big hit since she stopped working, IMO.

Well I was "hell on wheels" too before SAHM..But being a SAHM besides being COMPLETELY marginalized and unappreciated??(and made fun of) ..If my husband cheated on me was HIS fault..

If he cant keep his dick in his pants its not her fault .Its not my fault either its his.As far as I'm concerned .Keep your promise or don't.Stop blaming one woman or the other ..Step up be accountable.

Im sick of this Eve ****.."she drove me to it" and the other one "tempted me" .

Stop saying you are "da man" when you claim you have very little control over who you insert your penis in or not based on wemins....Its getting old..I have a 17 year old son more mature than that.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well I was "hell on wheels" too before SAHM..But being a SAHM besides being COMPLETELY marginalized and unappreciated??(and made fun of) ..If my husband cheated on me was HIS fault..

If he cant keep his dick in his pants its not her fault .Its not my fault either its his.As far as I'm concerned .Keep your promise or don't.Stop blaming one woman or the other ..Step up be accountable.

Im sick of this Eve ****.."she drove me to it" and the other one "tempted me" .

Stop saying you are "da man" when you claim you have very little control over who you insert your penis in or not based on wemins....Its getting old..I have a 17 year old son more mature than that.

This might be a little off-topic here, but I liked the way you referred to the Adam & Eve story which - when you think of it - is actually a "she made me do it/the woman tempted me" story to it's core.

 

[DallasApple]

This might be a little off-topic here, but I liked the way you referred to the Adam & Eve story which - when you think of it - is actually a "she made me do it/the woman tempted me" story to it's core.

I think its at "root".And I don't think its "off topic".Old ?Yes ..but not off topic..I think that "thinking' survived and thrived...:yes:

 

[Alceste]

This might be a little off-topic here, but I liked the way you referred to the Adam & Eve story which - when you think of it - is actually a "she made me do it/the woman tempted me" story to it's core.

Ain't that the truth! What an insidious myth that is!

I've NEVER understood why the (ostensibly) cuckolded partner always blames the (alleged) mistress.

News flash: If your partner is banging other people and lying to you about it, THEY'RE A LIAR. If they're not honest with you - their primary partner - do you really think they're going to be honest with their bit on the side?

Of course not. They're going to say whatever is needed to close the deal. Half of the time, that involves a lot of malicious and fallacious whining about YOU, if it's known by the object of your affection that you're married. Oh, s/he doesn't understand me. S/he's abusive. Our relationship is on the rocks. Bla bla bla. Or it's an open relationship. Or there is no relationship. Or whatever.

 

[DallasApple]

Ain't that the truth! What an insidious myth that is!

I've NEVER understood why the (ostensibly) cuckolded partner always blames the (alleged) mistress.

News flash: If your partner is banging other people and lying to you about it, THEY'RE A LIAR. If they're not honest with you - their primary partner - do you really think they're going to be honest with their bit on the side?

Of course not. They're going to say whatever is needed to close the deal. Half of the time, that involves a lot of malicious and fallacious whining about YOU, if it's known by the object of your affection that you're married. Oh, s/he doesn't understand me. S/he's abusive. Our relationship is on the rocks. Bla bla bla. Or it's an open relationship. Or there is no relationship. Or whatever.

Yeah I doubt many "alleged' mistresses are going to be to keen on having an affair with a married man that goes on about how great his wife is and what a great marriage he has . How he is looking forward to growing old with her and is just looking for something strange on the side.That happens I just think its less common than the liars.

I'm in a marriage in name only(even though he is still having sex with his wife)..we are staying together until the kids leave ...I'm going to leave her eventually..etc.

My understanding is the majority of men who have affairs never leave their wives for a mistress.Of those who do divorce and marry her..the divorce rate is 90%.Hes more likely to end the affair once the OW starts to question his intentions / starts to feel used/pressures him to leave /is jealous of the wife etc.. And that's NO FUN for him!He was trying to get away from "complicated".. He now has a "nagging" mistress AND a 'nagging" wife.Or the wife finds out . threatens divorce he drops the mistress and goes crawling back to wifey. The wife forgives him and the mistress is demonized as a home wrecker...she is never forgiven.

I think women are more likely to be "done" with the marriage if she has an affair. I have seen it too many times.The same story .She tells the husband (out of the blue of course) I love you but Im not IN love with you anymore.Stops having sex with him ..Says she is 'not sure' if she wants to be married anymore.But doesn't want to go to counseling.Denies there is another man..and within 6 months she files for divorce and the whole time she was in fact seeing another man.

Not every woman of course that says I love you but Im not in love with you anymore and divorces has another man. Usually if that is the case there are other signs.Like a new look and a sudden interest going to the gym etc..

That the other thing..would anyone ask a man to not work in an industry/ environment with mostly women because 'what about the husbands?"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That the other thing..would anyone ask a man to not work in an industry/ environment with mostly women because 'what about the husbands?"

Well...to be honest it would be more likely that disparaging remarks about his manhood/sexuality Would be made.

 

[DallasApple]

Well...to be honest it would be more likely that disparaging remarks about his manhood/sexuality Would be made.

What do you mean?Like his weeny was to small?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What do you mean?Like his weeny was to small?

Probably not quite that specific, although I'm sure that happens. Just that he wasn't a real man, or that he should get a real job, etc. And that he must be gay.
That type of stuff.

 

[Penumbra]

Some men can't accept being told what to do by a woman.

I'm a project lead in my engineering organization so there are a lot of moments where I direct other engineers and technicians to get a project done.

But it's more egalitarian than hierarchical, because even though I'm the project lead for this unit, if I'm in between projects I'll often help out another engineer with a side project and if it's something he knows more about than I do like for example one of the mechanical engineers doing a mechanical thing, I just ask how I can help him and we do it. Even the manager sometimes comes out on Friday afternoons with his shirt and tie and gets his hands dirty and asks his engineers what needs to be done and how he can help. So it's pretty rare to speak like, "do this" or "do that". When I'm in charge of a project I mainly state things as though they were suggestions, like, "Okay I'll work on this part, so if you can get that part done by Tuesday when we can see if we can get it all set up for testing on Wednesday, sound doable?"

So it all works well for most people. But there is this one technician that, for some reason I can't identify other than perhaps a gender thing, just really hates it when I give him directions. I even give him cool projects, like, "Can you design a solution for such and such? I'm thinking along these lines- could you draw up a plan and we'll go over it?" But he gets visibly angry and defensive when I ask him to do stuff, even though his specific job is to do things for the engineers and especially the project lead. It doesn't matter how politely I phrase it, or how wide of a space I give him to take ownership to design his part of the project and treat him as I do any full engineer, he gets upset. So, I have to use finesse to get him to do things, which is not efficient. I have to go to a male engineer (usually the same guy each time, we're close friends), and then ask him to ask the technician to do the task. Basically I have to structure the project group so that the technician is taking directions from another engineer, who is taking directions from me. Then the technician happily does it, even though we all know it was my direction. As long as I'm not the one that directly asks him to do something, it all works.

Whatever. :sarcastic

 

[BSM1]

What do you mean?Like his weeny was to small?

You, of course, are referring to those little party weenies the guy brought to work for lunch.

 

[DallasApple]

You, of course, are referring to those little party weenies the guy brought to work for lunch.

You mean like Vienna sausages in barbeque sauce?

 

[Koldo]

But there is this one technician that, for some reason I can't identify other than perhaps a gender thing, just really hates it when I give him directions. I even give him cool projects, like, "Can you design a solution for such and such? I'm thinking along these lines- could you draw up a plan and we'll go over it?" But he gets visibly angry and defensive when I ask him to do stuff, even though his specific job is to do things for the engineers and especially the project lead. It doesn't matter how politely I phrase it, or how wide of a space I give him to take ownership to design his part of the project and treat him as I do any full engineer, he gets upset.

What if he says : No, i can't design a solution for such and such.
Or: No, I can't draw up a plan.
Or even: No, I don't want to go over it with you.

What happens then?

So, I have to use finesse to get him to do things, which is not efficient.

What happens if you use no finesse at all?
What happens if you are simply succinct such as: Do X, Y and Z. ?

 

[Penumbra]

What if he says : No, i can't design a solution for such and such.
Or: No, I can't draw up a plan.
Or even: No, I don't want to go over it with you.

What happens then?

He won't say no to me. That would cross the line and directly put his job at risk. Instead, he'll complain about it, make sarcastic remarks, argue that a trivial side task is more important than the assigned task and so the assigned task has to wait, and watch anime on his computer and click away from it to hide it when I walk by or come to visit him. He'll skirt the line to avoid hard proof to the manager that he is doing something wrong.

What happens if you use no finesse at all?
What happens if you are simply succinct such as: Do X, Y and Z. ?

I tried that early on when I was a new project lead and asking politely didn't work for him as it does for others. When I get direct and authoritative, he gets passive aggressive and depressed and mopes around and co-workers make fun of him behind his back. He starts saying self-deprecating things, gets all moody, and it's kind of sad to watch. We had a giant struggle about a part with a deadline and he eventually did it weeks late with a variety of excuses as to why it wasn't being done after I repeatedly told him to do it.

Our manager is the very embodiment of the Peter Principle. He was a ridiculously good engineer that was promoted to manager decades ago, and is not a good manager because he is afraid of confrontation and not good with economics. Yet, he is the only one with the official authority to make hiring and firing decisions for this business unit, although for hiring decisions I make the decision and then he approves it. He avoids firing people whenever possible and is afraid to confront people even though he admits to me that he is dissatisfied with an employee and doesn't know what to do. I only ever got one employee in trouble and that was when there were no other options.

So, given plenty of cooperative co-worker engineers and technicians, a technically excellent but managerially weak boss, and one problematic technician in my group that can be given direction from men but not women, I work within the system. I learned what sets him off, what makes him productive, and filter my directions through a man so that he does what needs to be done. So he's nice to my face, engineers and technicians consider him hard to work with and see the problem from my point of view and help make it work, and we meet deadlines.

 

[Aquitaine]

He won't say no to me. That would cross the line and directly put his job at risk. Instead, he'll complain about it, make sarcastic remarks, argue that a trivial side task is more important than the assigned task and so the assigned task has to wait, and watch anime on his computer and click away from it to hide it when I walk by or come to visit him. He'll skirt the line to avoid hard proof to the manager that he is doing something wrong.

I tried that early on when I was a new project lead and asking politely didn't work for him as it does for others. When I get direct and authoritative, he gets passive aggressive and depressed and mopes around and co-workers make fun of him behind his back. He starts saying self-deprecating things, gets all moody, and it's kind of sad to watch. We had a giant struggle about a part with a deadline and he eventually did it weeks late with a variety of excuses as to why it wasn't being done after I repeatedly told him to do it.

Our manager is the very embodiment of the Peter Principle. He was a ridiculously good engineer that was promoted to manager decades ago, and is not a good manager because he is afraid of confrontation and not good with economics. Yet, he is the only one with the official authority to make hiring and firing decisions for this business unit, although for hiring decisions I make the decision and then he approves it. He avoids firing people whenever possible and is afraid to confront people even though he admits to me that he is dissatisfied with an employee and doesn't know what to do. I only ever got one employee in trouble and that was when there were no other options.

So, given plenty of cooperative co-worker engineers and technicians, a technically excellent but managerially weak boss, and one problematic technician in my group that can be given direction from men but not women, I work within the system. I learned what sets him off, what makes him productive, and filter my directions through a man so that he does what needs to be done. So he's nice to my face, engineers and technicians consider him hard to work with and see the problem from my point of view and help make it work, and we meet deadlines.

What an insightful post into your ability to make enduring compromises. Methinks perhaps you should be the Manager. :yes: