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this is my first contribution....
- Thread starter mohammed_beiruti
- Start date
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
the answer in Qura'n surah 101 THE CALAMITY
1 The terrible calamity!
2 What is the terrible calamity!
3 And what will make you comprehend what the terrible calamity is?
4 The day on which men shall be as scattered moths,
5 And the mountains shall be as loosened wool.
6 Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy,
7 He shall live a pleasant life.
8 And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light,
9 His abode shall be the abyss.
10 And what will make you know what it is?
11 A burning fire.
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
I am asking you specifically about the muslims that Mohammad converted, after he died did they stay faithful to Islam out of sheer devotion to their new religion?of course am not the only muslim remained in the word
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
Who was faithful and honest remained faithful and honest.
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Herein lies one of my biggest problems with your religion, Allah seems to have little regard for his own laws. It seems that justice can be overlooked if your good deeds have outweighed your bad, it's as though on your day of judgement your life is taken to a market trader, put in the scales and the value of it decided. This makes his standard less than holy because he is willing to overlook acts of malice towards others if on the whole you have been a good enough person.
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
It is my understanding that after muhammeds death many tribes tried to leave Islam and refused to pay the due Zakat, Abu Bakr had other ideas and threatened serious consequences if the dissenting tribes did not submit, threats that he later carried out by waging war and being victorious.
This being the case, isn't it little wonder that Islam was able to grow, afterall the punishment for apostasy is and always has been execution. How can you know if the early muslims stayed muslims out of devotion or fear before the human nature of traditionalism and habit took a hold?
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
first of all , not all of the tribes refused to Pay Zakat (taxes) after the Death of Prophet PBUH Such tribes in Valley of Baca, Madina, Ta'ef, and bahreen.
There were political resons for these wars which happened after the death of prophet mohammed PBUH ,
Such as some tribes refused to pay zakat (taxes) to the islamic state although they consider them selves muslims
Some of them refused Abu Baker to be the Caliph (the prisedent) and they thought that loyality for the prophet was a personal thing , and won't continue after his death.
don't say that islam grew because muslims killed preople , it seems you are afected by crusaders wars history
the wars has nothing to do with preaching and to Spreading islam,
there were a mutiny against the caliph(predsident)
i advise you don't compare the Christianity history and islamic history , because they are not alike , the bloody crusaders wars - which killed many billions of innocent people to spread Christianity - did not take a place in islamic history
can you defened your self, I am ready to discuss the crusader wars
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*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Well, thanks for pointing that out but many does not mean all so if you re-read what I said you will find that I never said theu all refused to pay.
Why not? What I was saying is that you can never know for sure if people inititially stayed in Islam out of devotion or fear. When you have a death penalty for apostasy and a big example of it being carried out such as in the wars of apostasy how can you know for sure that they stayed muslim because of their love for mohammed and allah? I think people will say anything to save their necks.
Not at all, it has no part in my thinking.
That's true, in early Christianity it could cost you your life to become a Christian, in early Islam it could cost you your life not to.
To spread Christianity? These took place 1200+ years after the birth of Christianity, it had done enough spreading by then. Christianity was spread by the preaching of the gospel :
(God the Son became flesh whilst never ceasing to be God, He took on Himself the nature of man whilst not loosing His divine nature to live a life of perfect obedience to God's Law on our behalf, He took on Himself the punishment for our sins on the cross - there God poured out on Him His righteous wrath against sin so that we would not have to be punished for them. He bore our sins in His own body which was buried taking our sins with Him. He rose from the dead 3 days later victorious over death because death cannot hold him, He was seen alive by hundreds of people including His closest friends, He ascended into heaven, He is coming again, those who believe in Him have His righteousness credited to their account By God and He views them as not guilty and adopts them as His sons whom He will recieve to Himself at His coming, this is our great hope, He is coming soon)
They are not really relevant to our discussion but I can see why you would want to change the subject.can you defened your self, I am ready to discuss the crusader wars
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
Don't Ignore my important point, Those wars has nothing to do with preaching or spreading islam, those muslim citesins refused to pay Zakat(taxes) ,so the caliph "Abou Baker" wanted to punish the instigator for the mutiny .
You are just judging islam, you don't want to be subjective.
Just tell me how did country such as Malysia, Indonisia accepted islam ,
they Accepted islam because they found Muslims Merchants had a very good morals, they knew islam through those merchants ,
Nowadays,Islam still grow in Europe and America, islam considred to be one of the most growing relegions in the world.
The Ridda at that time was considered treason to the state. The Ridda that Abu Bakr fought was two types; complete Ridda; some tribes and people followed who claimed to be prophets and the other type; those who refused to pay Zakah. In the first case, it wasn't just few persons who left Islam but they had a sort of political authority so their people followed them (in a tribal sense). People of the second type claimed no Zakah should be payed after the Prophet's death. In both cases, it was rebellion against the government and the state. They collected their powers and thus Muslims had to fight them. In one of the battles ten thousands Muslims faced fourty thousands of the Murtaddeen. I am telling you this just to imagine the danger they represented to the Islamic state then.
It wasn't a matter of leaving the religion only but it was disloyalty to the state.
But if someone wants to leave Islam nowadays, there is no war or rebellion...etc; the circumstances now are different, then he is free to leave Islam without any penalty. Who cares if few persons left Islam (and they doesn't represent any danger) if they want to go to hell, who cares?!
I know that there is a traditinal thought that says the Murtadd should be killed. Some say the Murtadd should be warned first and give him appointed time to reconsider his decision...then if he refused to return back to Islam then the penalty should be carried out but I am of the other opinion that says that this contradicts the Qur'an and clear Qur'anic principles and Ayaat:
"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject (it)" (Qur'an, Al kahf)
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." Surat Al Baqara.
Islam granted freedom of belief. This was very clear through the Islamic history and in the different parts that Muslims opened. For example, when the Prophet opened Macca, no one was forced to believe and nothing was done to the people of Macca although they tortured Muslims over 13 years and fought them. The prophet then said "go, you are free".
What about the companions who were tortured to leave their new beliefs; their Islam, how come any one say how we can know if they were Muslims out of fear or out of their conviction!! The first Muslims who established the da'wa to this great religion at the expense of their money, homes, families, souls and then we come to ask how can we know?!! The Muslims who were ready to give their lives to defend this new message, then we ask how can we know?!!
Look at how the Christians were treated: Umar showed one of the greatest images of Muslims' tolerance and great and high manners when they opened Jerusalem.
Umar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAccording to both Muslim and Christian accounts, `Umar entered the city humbly, walking beside a donkey upon which his servant was sitting. He is said to have been given the keys to the city by the Orthodox Christian Patriarch Sophronius, after conducting the peace treaty known as the Treaty of Umar, the English translation of which is provided below:
“ In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Beneficent.
This is what the slave of Allah, Umar b.Al-Khattab, the Amir of the believers, has offered the people of Illyaa’[1] of security granting them Amaan (protection) for their selves, their money, their churches, their children, their lowly and their innocent, and the remainder of their people.
Their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed.
No Jews are to live with them in Illyaa’ and it is required of the people of Illyaa’ to pay the Jizya, like the people of the cities. It is also required of them to remove the Romans from the land; and whoever amongst the people of Illyaa’ that wishes to depart with their money together with the Romans, leaving their trading goods and children behind, then they selves, their trading goods and their children are secure until they reach their destination.
Upon what is in this book is the word of Allah, the covenant of His Messenger, of the Khulafaa’ and of the believers if they (the people of Illyaa’
And when the time of the prayer came, the Patriarch suggested on Umar to pray at the church but he refused,
Wikipedia said:
And after more than four centuries and half the Crusaders came to the same place, killed and treated Muslims in atrocious and barbaric way in the name of Christ.
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*Paul*
Jesus loves you
War on Imposters
It was now time to strike at the imposters. Usama's army had rested and was ready to go into action again. Abu Bakr marched the army about twelve miles along the road to Nejd. Here he divided it into eleven battalions. Each battalion was put under the command of an experienced commander. The commanders were then told to march against different imposters.
Before these armies left, a general warning was given to the imposters and their followers. They were assured of pardon if they came back to Islam. The Caliph gave the following instructions to his commanders:
"I request the soldiers of Islam to fear Allah, under all conditions. They should do their best to obey the commandments of Allah. They should fight against those who have left Islam and have fallen in the trap of the devil. But before taking out swords, they must declare the message of Islam. If the apostates accept it, they must at once hold back their hands. But if the message is rejected, they must attack and fight till these people give up disbelief. When the apostates re-enter the fold of Islam, the commander of the Muslim army must explain to them their rights and duties under Islam. They should be given their rights and should be made to do their duties. The commander should keep his men from hasty action and mischief. He should avoid a headlong plunge into enemy settlements. He should rather enter them after making sure of all precautions, lest Muslims suffer a loss. Whether he is on the march of in the camp, the commander should be kind and considerate towards his men. He should look to their comfort and should be gentle in speech."
The Caliph explained these instructions to the commanders. Then they led their battalions against the several imposters. Abu Bakr then came back to Medina. He had already forced the waverers among Muslims to pay Zakat (the poor-rate). Now he launched an all-out attack on imposters and their followers.
Abu Bakr Siddiq
The simple fact is that those who tried to leave Islam were given two choices, come back and submit to the laws of Islam or die.
Given this kind of compulsion in your religion and that it is still punishable by death to leave Islam in many places how can you know for sure if those first mulsims and many of todays muslims are muslims out of choice or because they had the misfortune of being born into it and have no other choice? You say it was all political but it clearly wasn't Islam is both a political and religious arrangement.
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No. In judgement day, all human beings, jinn, even animals will complain if any injustice happen to them and they will be able to get the good deeds from the offender for in that day there is no currency except deeds. Then when your good deeds are finished and people still have rights over you, then they will put over you some of their bad deeds.
Nevertheless, as long as we are in this life, we have the chance to repent and replace our bad deeds with good ones.
[114] And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things that are good remove those that are evil: be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord): (Quran 11:114)
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Is their any chance you can explain this a little more? I'm not entirely sure that I am fully comprehending this system.
In any case isn't the verse you posted saying that if you have done something bad you can make up for it by doing something good?
We can always stop doing bad things and repent to God, but the things which can't be forgiven are the bad things you do to people, because in this case, THEY have to forgive you, othewise, you won't be forgiven till judement day.
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Surely all the bad things we do are done to someone, if there is no victim or offended person then it wouldn't be a bad thing.... would it?