This Is What You Get From Those Without Experience Or Thinking The Issue Through

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can Ukraine keep the lights on?

So far Ukraine has managed to keep its power grid operating despite Russian attacks, but it desperately needs electrical equipment from the U.S. and other countries.

www.nbcnews.com

So, how you going to charge your EV tank....solar panels...not going to work.

By the same token, ask all those Russian tank crews in the Ukraine that have been overrun after running out of fuel how well it's worked for them to be dependent on tanker truck convoys.

 

[fantome profane]

Well to start with... an electric cars weighs around 4 tons. A tank weighs around 55 tons.

How much do you think that thing weights?

Caterpillar (CAT) advances sustainable mining with first battery electric 793 large truck

The leading construction and mining equipment manufacturer, Caterpillar (CAT), is plowing ahead with plans to advance sustainable mining. Caterpillar successfully...

electrek.co

 

[We Never Know]

View attachment 75935

How much do you think that thing weights?

Caterpillar (CAT) advances sustainable mining with first battery electric 793 large truck

The leading construction and mining equipment manufacturer, Caterpillar (CAT), is plowing ahead with plans to advance sustainable mining. Caterpillar successfully...

electrek.co

Guessing I would say 130 ton.

4.3 miles isn't that far. Why not do 10?
What's missing is how long it will go and how long for it to charge(unless I missed it)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have to say: who would have thought that here on this tiny corner of the internet that we would be able to hear the opinions of people who know better than the Pentagon about how to equip a military and wage a war?

@esmith - I think I speak for all of us when I say that it's an honour.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’ll take your word for it lol
Still sooner or later we will have to face a reality without fossil fuel.
That’s just inevitable. I mean fuel isn’t exactly a renewable resource

Perhaps a half and half approach for now?

Fossil fuel will never run out. It will simply become
spendier to mine & process it than alternatives.
I expect that the superior operating characteristics
of fossil fuels will relegate them to high value uses,
eg, military aircraft. Phase out of fossil fuel for the
military shouldn't be on an arbitrary schedule cuz
it would risk compromising preparedness.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well if there is a poster on RF who might know, I suppose it would be you. And I am at the mercy of your expertise here.

I'm no expert in anything. But I've broad experience in transportation
(GM Truck & Bus) & aerospace (Northrop & others). It's a
useful broad perspective, despite my lack of expertise.

A couple of thoughts:
1) if we were able to send rockets to the moon with just electricity, Tesla would be all over it. So I acknowledge that combustion can provide much more energy. But the question here is whether we can provide adequate energy. Your post would seem to answer this with a no. And perhaps I should take and accept just that. But knowing what you do in both engineering and working with defense contracts is this the end of the discussion?

I simply advise making progress in EVs, & then
applying the technology wherever it makes sense.

2) Is it possible you have been out of the game long enough or worked in a sector removed enough to not answer this with such certainty?

As I said, I'm no expert in anything. And I've long
been out of the industries. However, the basics of
logistics remain the same. Ya gotta get the soldiers
& materiel where needed, with proper support.
I find the argument for all EVs on a strict schedule
to be a fantasy. It's public knowledge that we'd
need a huge change in battery, electricity generation,
infrastructure, & experience first. Those are so far
off that any estimates would be unreliable.

3) I have heard tales of military proving math equations years before the public sector provided solutions. If this is true of math, how true is it of various technologies?

I've not heard of that. But math is merely tool to
model the real world. The quality of the results
is limited by the quality of the assumptions.
And those are currently vaporware...so to speak.

4) Also of note, when we land on a way to do something that works well enough, it starts to carve a path where future innovation utilizes past solutions and leaves other paths, which would perhaps lead to equally effective or in some cases more efficient solutions, untrodden. Is it possible something like this has occurred with the combustion engine?

There's also room for improving IC engines, eg,
adiabatic (almost) engines using more ceramic
components. Technology should advance on
parallel paths, with results guiding change.

5) your assessment seems to indicate where potential pitfalls reside, but doesn’t explain why these pitfalls cannot be surmounted.

Parallel research programs to see where they lead.
EV & hybrid tech has great potential for civilian &
non-combat vehicles. That should & will expand.

 

[Audie]

Fossil fuel will never run out. It will simply become
spendier to mine & process it than alternatives.
I expect that the superior operating characteristics
of fossil fuels will relegate them to high value uses,
eg, military aircraft. Phase out of fossil fuel for the
military shouldn't be on an arbitrary schedule cuz
it would risk compromising preparedness.

True as anyone even modestly skilled in the
art knows. Oil will get more and more expensive
but it's impossible to run out.

 

[SomeRandom]

Fossil fuel will never run out. It will simply become
spendier to mine & process it than alternatives.
I expect that the superior operating characteristics
of fossil fuels will relegate them to high value uses,
eg, military aircraft. Phase out of fossil fuel for the
military shouldn't be on an arbitrary schedule cuz
it would risk compromising preparedness.

Perhaps you’re right. But fuel isn’t a renewable resource, so it will run out eventually. Maybe not for another 100 years or so.
I don’t know. I’m not too versed in such matters
This is what I’ve found

When will fossil fuels run out?

When will fossil fuels run out and how will countries prepare for this situation? Natural gas, coal, and oil reserves will be empty by 2060.

group.met.com

Sooner or later we need to face the fact that we’ve mined resources too much and have to rely on something else. That’s inevitable. We’ve been warned about that since kindergarten age. At least in my country and we love fuel here

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps you’re right. But fuel isn’t a renewable resource, so it will run out eventually. Maybe not for another 100 years or so.
I don’t know. I’m not too versed in such matters
This is what I’ve found

When will fossil fuels run out?

When will fossil fuels run out and how will countries prepare for this situation? Natural gas, coal, and oil reserves will be empty by 2060.

group.met.com

Sooner or later we need to face the fact that we’ve mined resources too much and have to rely on something else. That’s inevitable. We’ve been warned about that since kindergarten age. At least in my country and we love fuel here

Biological & synthetic fuel sources will increasingly replace fossil fuels.

 

[SomeRandom]

Biological & synthetic fuel sources will increasingly replace fossil fuels.

Yeah you’re probably right

 

[F1fan]

Not only that, fuel dependence is a strategic military weakness to begin with.

It's why Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, dragging the US into the war (and ultimately leading to Japan's defeat). In Europe, fuel shortages were a key factor in Germany's defeat.

Gas- and diesel-fueled combat vehicles have to be resupplied with fuel. This fuel has to be brought to those vehicles in tanker trucks or by airlift. Reducing fuel usage means reducing the number of vulnerable convoys you have to run, which reduces the number of convoys that are attacked by ambush or IEDs.

The Battle of the Bulge failed in part due to the German tanks and vehicles running out of gas. One aim of the plan was to capture an Allied fuel depot. Many of the King Tigers that are in war musems are because they ran out of gas and the Allies captured them intact.

 

[esmith]

I have to say: who would have thought that here on this tiny corner of the internet that we would be able to hear the opinions of people who know better than the Pentagon about how to equip a military and wage a war?

@esmith - I think I speak for all of us when I say that it's an honour.

You do realize don't you that it is the civilians in the Pentagon that want all military vehicles including the mechanized infantry and main battle tanks to be fully EV's with the current technology.
You still haven't given a solution on how to get them charged on the battle field in a resonable time.

 

[esmith]

The Battle of the Bulge failed in part due to the German tanks and vehicles running out of gas. One aim of the plan was to capture an Allied fuel depot. Many of the King Tigers that are in war musems are because they ran out of gas and the Allies captured them intact.

That is because Germany had a major issue in acquiring the necessary fuel.
See https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1020261.pdf for a study on Germany's fuel problems from 1917-1945

 

[Revoltingest]

You do realize don't you that it is the civilians in the Pentagon that want all military vehicles including the mechanized infantry and main battle tanks to be fully EV's with the current technology.
You still haven't given a solution on how to get them charged on the battle field in a resonable time.

But Kennedy said we needed 10 years to put men on the Moon.
(It'll take longer for women.) And it happened.
Government can make anything happen. Just pass a law.
No need to consider hurdles or how.
(Blame any problem on those evil corporations.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do realize don't you that it is the civilians in the Pentagon that want all military vehicles including the mechanized infantry and main battle tanks to be fully EV's with the current technology.

And who exactly is it calling for all military vehicles to stay gas- and diesel-fueled forever except armchair "experts" on the internet?

You still haven't given a solution on how to get them charged on the battle field in a resonable time.

That's true. Make whatever hay you want of someone with no relevant expertise not having a solution to that particular technical problem.

I also don't have a solution to the problem of how to protect long convoys of tanker trucks needed to allow diesel-powered tanks to get refuelled on the battlefield. If you care about my opinion on the one issue, I trust you'll care about my opinion on the other.

 

[F1fan]

That is because Germany had a major issue in acquiring the necessary fuel.
See https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1020261.pdf for a study on Germany's fuel problems from 1917-1945

The heavy reliance on oil and gas meant Germans had to use horse-drawn carts as the war wen't on. The US military under conservatives (who resist change and progress) can always rely on horses as well.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most military vehicles aren't combat vehicles.

The vehicle needs of a big military base are pretty similar to the vehicle needs of a big college campus. The tanks are the most spectacular part of the fleet, but they're a small part of it.

Even in-theatre in wartime, the stat I remember is that for every 1 front-line soldier engaging in actual combat, there are about 7 other personnel in support roles: logistics, maintenance, medical, etc., etc., not counting the support personnel back home.

Yup. That's why out of all the military people I've known only three of them had a combat position. The rest medics, mechanics, a sonar tech, non-combat pilots, even a janitory.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I worry people with no experiencei in warfare, making war machines.

What could go wrong?

You mean like how non-military Reps ans Cons screams queers must nit be allowed to serve despite the military saying they can't find a reason against them serving? Or that bit of a military research suggesting the replace yes sir/maam with the rank/title of the one being addressed to help clarify amd reduce confusing and enhance compliance being met with opposition from Reps and Cons saying that's a horrible idea and insisting it's actually part of a queer liberal agenda related to transgender people and just trying to make things confusing?

 

[Twilight Hue]

You do realize don't you that it is the civilians in the Pentagon that want all military vehicles including the mechanized infantry and main battle tanks to be fully EV's with the current technology.
You still haven't given a solution on how to get them charged on the battle field in a resonable time.

I'dike to see an ev battery move a 60 ton battle tank across a theater with multiple elevated and rough terrain during a protracted conflict that can span months to years in remote isolated areas traversing hundreds to thousand of miles.

 

[Revoltingest]

The heavy reliance on oil and gas meant Germans had to use horse-drawn carts as the war wen't on. The US military under conservatives (who resist change and progress) can always rely on horses as well.

To ditch fossil fuels, there must be a viable alternative.
EVs are increasingly practical, but not there yet for many
kinds of military vehicles. (Note that military electrical
power generators use fossil fuels.)
An arbitrary schedule to go all EV is impractical. It would
be modified or abandoned as it becomes clear that
military preparedness would suffer.
A better goal is to increase EVs wherever practical ASAP.
This would be so for REMF applications, eg, operating
on bases & in civilian infrastructure.
Don't let obsession with perfection be the enemy of good.