This is why Black Lives SHOULD Matter

[Jose Fly]

How come when conservative right-wingers come in they don't watch the video? They chime in with stupid pictures

Honestly, in many cases I get the sense that the conservatives aren't really even trying.

 

[Stevicus]

Reactionary left-wingers have their issues too.
- They're unaware that more whites are shot by cops than
blacks (who are only shot in a greater percentage of their
population). This is something I've had to correct, even on
RF.

As a reactionary left-winger, I can assure you that I was aware of this fact.

- Another is that they make the problem solely about racism
of white cops. Yet racism towards blacks is exhibited by black
cops too (research I heard in a Hidden Brain podcast.) Diversity
hires can be useful, but won't fix that problem.

I try to look at it more as "cop vs. citizen." If it's a white cop harassing (or even shooting) a white citizen, then it's looked upon that way. It's expected that the legal authorities would honor the rights of citizens and investigate police shootings and/or complaints against police honestly and objectively. If the police get out of line, white people have a greater chance of being heard by higher authority and gaining satisfaction that justice will be done. So, it's not really just a matter about cops, but also about the civil and political authorities who are above the cops. Citizens of color aren't as likely to be heard by higher authority or get the satisfaction that a white citizen might get when mistreated by the police.

I took note of the fact that, when the Rodney King video was broadcast, things still remained relatively calm - until the "not guilty" verdict of the police officers was announced, which is when the L.A. riots broke out.

That's the thing. They can't control the actions of every single police officer, but they can take swift action and make sure justice is done if and when an officer does get out of line. The people run this country, not the police.

- Their excessive demonization of cops is making the problem
worse by making it difficult to retain & hire cops...even good ones.

Yes, that appears to be a problem as of late. It's not the reactionary left-wingers who are the cause of it, though. You speak of "excessive demonization of cops," but it seems to me that Derek Chauvin played a major role in forming the public's perception of the police. Although police officers such as the one mentioned in the OP of this thread is another factor, along with every other incident of violence, brutality, and/or murder by police which have been reported to the public. (And how much of it went on in the days before cellphone cameras, body cams, and surveillance cams were so widespread?)

Then there are the police unions who are also a part of the problem, along with the politicians and judges who could have ensured that justice was done, yet didn't.

They demonize themselves. It's really that simple. Can't blame the lefties for that.

 

[Lyndon]

Honestly, in many cases I get the sense that the conservatives aren't really even trying.

a lot of their responses seem to be based in racist attitudes IMHO For instance they'll tell you that more whites are shot by cops ( they only amount for about 50% of police shootings, while they are a much higher percent of the population), not that Blacks are 3 times more likely to be shot by cops, which is the fact.

 

[Revoltingest]

How come when conservative right-wingers come in they don't watch the video? They chime in with stupid pictures

How come liberal left wingers expect us all to watch
potentially stupid videos instead of writing a cogent
argument of their own?

Notice:
This post is harsher than normal cuz it apes
the style of the one quoted. Now, back to our
regularly scheduled more pleasant discourse.

 

[Lyndon]

How come liberal left wingers expect us all to watch
potentially stupid videos instead of writing a cogent
argument of their own?

Notice:
This post is harsher than normal cuz it apes
the style of the one quoted. Now, back to our
regularly scheduled more pleasant discourse.

So now you're calling the video stupid, what a stupid comment.

 

[Revoltingest]

As a reactionary left-winger, I can assure you that I was aware of this fact.

I know that some are woke.
This is good.
But I've had to enlighten a few of them.

I try to look at it more as "cop vs. citizen." If it's a white cop harassing (or even shooting) a white citizen, then it's looked upon that way. It's expected that the legal authorities would honor the rights of citizens and investigate police shootings and/or complaints against police honestly and objectively. If the police get out of line, white people have a greater chance of being heard by higher authority and gaining satisfaction that justice will be done. So, it's not really just a matter about cops, but also about the civil and political authorities who are above the cops. Citizens of color aren't as likely to be heard by higher authority or get the satisfaction that a white citizen might get when mistreated by the police.

I've reviewed many wrongful shootings of white folk.
Results are poor....as they are for all races.

I took note of the fact that, when the Rodney King video was broadcast, things still remained relatively calm - until the "not guilty" verdict of the police officers was announced, which is when the L.A. riots broke out.

That's the thing. They can't control the actions of every single police officer, but they can take swift action and make sure justice is done if and when an officer does get out of line. The people run this country, not the police.

I urge the people to demand better policing.
But this must be done in a more productive manner.
(I've made proposals before.)

Yes, that appears to be a problem as of late. It's not the reactionary left-wingers who are the cause of it, though. You speak of "excessive demonization of cops," but it seems to me that Derek Chauvin played a major role in forming the public's perception of the police. Although police officers such as the one mentioned in the OP of this thread is another factor, along with every other incident of violence, brutality, and/or murder by police which have been reported to the public. (And how much of it went on in the days before cellphone cameras, body cams, and surveillance cams were so widespread?)

As bad as Chauvin is, we must be careful about
reacting in a manner that drives away good cops.
(There are some.)

Then there are the police unions who are also a part of the problem, along with the politicians and judges who could have ensured that justice was done, yet didn't.

I agree about cop unions being among the corrupt influences.

They demonize themselves. It's really that simple. Can't blame the lefties for that.

Think of it as not being about blaming this side or that
side exclusively. Search for merit in both, & criticize
wrongheadedness where found in both.

 

[Revoltingest]

So now you're calling the video stupid, what a stupid comment.

You left out "potentially" between "video" & "stupid".
People always be wanting me to watch their videos
in lieu of a succinct post that I can quickly read & grok.
But so often it disappoints, & I want those minutes of
my life back.
Note also that I responded in kind to a jab.
The style of a message is itself a message, eh.

I know it's easier to rant against a restated claim,
one that changes the meaning so something is more
attackable. But rants don't inspire conversation...if
that is what you want. Is it?

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly, in many cases I get the sense that the conservatives aren't really even trying.

The conservatives seem to thrive on fear-mongering, and it seems to have escalated in recent times. I listen to the local Fox News affiliate when I'm driving to and from work. They've been harping a lot on the so-called "election fraud," but lately it seems that's gone to the back burner in favor of Critical Race Theory. They see it as some kind of Marxist/Communist indoctrination. They see the country on the verge of a commie takeover. (As much as I would like that to be true, it won't ever be true, not in my lifetime.)

It's a modernized version of McCarthyism.

In fairness, though, it's not just the conservatives who aren't trying. Liberals and progressives could try harder to communicate with "Middle America" (for lack of a better term) in terms they can understand. A lot of people are just plain scared, and people in that state of mind are easier for political opportunists to manipulate.

 

[Revoltingest]

The conservatives seem to thrive on fear-mongering, and it seems to have escalated in recent times. I listen to the local Fox News affiliate when I'm driving to and from work. They've been harping a lot on the so-called "election fraud," but lately it seems that's gone to the back burner in favor of Critical Race Theory. They see it as some kind of Marxist/Communist indoctrination.

I recommend watching OAN...with a gorillas in the mist perspective.
Get a real feel for the pulse of this crowd by seeing their news.

 

[Stevicus]

I know that some are woke.
This is good.
But I've had to enlighten a few of them.

I've reviewed many wrongful shootings of white folk.
Results are poor....as they are for all races.

Well, class also makes a big difference. Lower class whites are less likely to get justice than wealthy whites. But that's all the more reason why working class whites would do well to not get suckered in to all this BS going on lately.

I urge the people to demand better policing.
But this must be done in a more productive manner.
(I've made proposals before.)

Yes, as have I. Everyone makes proposals, but actually putting a plan into action and making it work - that's the tough part.

As bad as Chauvin is, we must be careful about
reacting in a manner that drives away good cops.
(There are some.)

I once seriously considered becoming a cop. My mother talked me out of it, and no one else in my family thought it was a good idea. And I had a few friends who said they would disown me if I ever became a police officer with the power of arrest.

But I think my point still stands. I think potential police recruits would more likely be driven away by stories of bad cops than any leftist attempts to demonize the cops. Consider the famous story of Frank Serpico, who was pressured and threatened by his fellow police officers, who were corrupt and criminal. I think the idea that cops pressure other cops to go along with bad conduct and other mischief would be a much stronger deterrent to attracting and keeping good cops. Only the bad cops would remain in that kind of culture, which only makes it worse. If the political leadership is also corrupt, then it has the makings for a pretty bad situation.

I agree about cop unions being among the corrupt influences.

Think of it as not being about blaming this side or that
side exclusively. Search for merit in both, & criticize
wrongheadedness where found in both.

I'm not really thinking about blame. I think it's more about identifying the kind of wrong-headed thinking that leads to incidents of police misconduct, brutality, or wrongful shootings. We don't have to blame people, except for those who are proven guilty. But we can look at what mistakes were made, but in doing so, it should be looked upon as constructive criticism, not "demonization."

Cops should at least be willing to accept honest criticism. If they're unable to do so without going berserk, then that illustrates the main part of the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, class also makes a big difference. Lower class whites are less likely to get justice than wealthy whites. But that's all the more reason why working class whites would do well to not get suckered in to all this BS going on lately.

Considering Bill Cosby's recent result, wealthy blacks can do well too.

Yes, as have I. Everyone makes proposals, but actually putting a plan into action and making it work - that's the tough part.

All that we (the slobbering masses) can do is advocate.

I once seriously considered becoming a cop. My mother talked me out of it, and no one else in my family thought it was a good idea. And I had a few friends who said they would disown me if I ever became a police officer with the power of arrest.

But I think my point still stands. I think potential police recruits would more likely be driven away by stories of bad cops than any leftist attempts to demonize the cops. Consider the famous story of Frank Serpico, who was pressured and threatened by his fellow police officers, who were corrupt and criminal. I think the idea that cops pressure other cops to go along with bad conduct and other mischief would be a much stronger deterrent to attracting and keeping good cops. Only the bad cops would remain in that kind of culture, which only makes it worse. If the political leadership is also corrupt, then it has the makings for a pretty bad situation.



I'm not really thinking about blame. I think it's more about identifying the kind of wrong-headed thinking that leads to incidents of police misconduct, brutality, or wrongful shootings. We don't have to blame people, except for those who are proven guilty. But we can look at what mistakes were made, but in doing so, it should be looked upon as constructive criticism, not "demonization."

Cops should at least be willing to accept honest criticism. If they're unable to do so without going berserk, then that illustrates the main part of the problem.

No argument here.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It also relates to the issue of police acquiring military equipment. Much of the public debate and discussion is over how police departments get this equipment, but rarely is it about why they do so. As one officer put it to me.....Look at the equipment and weapons that militia groups all have. If they go off, the police are going to need a lot more than bulletproof vests and 9mm handguns to take them down. So as long as that sort of weaponry is out in the streets, police will always need whatever it takes to overcome it.

If they go off, a lot of cops have strong ties to them. Like a sheriff in Michigan who said he wasn't sure if those guys who planned on abducting the mayor where breaking the law and saying they may even have more Constitutional authority than the agencies who arrested them.
And, while it is true America is awash with guns, lots and lots and lots of Americans don't have or don't carry them. What drives the average up is handfuls of individuals who hoard them. And while they are scared of guns, by leaps and bounds covid killed more cops than anything else, but lots of cops refused to enforcement covid restrictions. Their job consistently isn't even one of the top 10 most deadly. But with things like no knock warrants the police potentially pose a severe threat to any of us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Considering Bill Cosby's recent result, wealthy blacks can do well too.

And OJ.
Justice may be blind, but she's also a diseased prostitute.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Not necessary. In the bigger scheme of things, what I described were minor annoying inconveniences and were in no way meant to be comparable to the tragedy of the OP. I was responding to the notion that small town police are less corrupt than their urban counterparts.

I see

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Honestly, in many cases I get the sense that the conservatives aren't really even trying.

I was talking about folks I have blocked who I had the unfortunate privilege see their post prior to signing in

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, class also makes a big difference. Lower class whites are less likely to get justice than wealthy whites. But that's all the more reason why working class whites would do well to not get suckered in to all this BS going on lately.

Let us not forget what LBJ said especially when some whites bring up discrimination comparable to African-Americans:

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

FACT CHECK: Did LBJ Advocate: 'Convince the Lowest White Man He's Better Than the Best Colored Man'?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I am also not a law study, however my opinion is that juries ought to be running trials, ought to be selecting prosecutors and judges. The juries are weak and unable to do much about injustices.

Per the video because of his plea he wont even face trial which he can get more years.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The main reason that the US has such a problem with police killing citizens is the pervasiveness of guns in our society.

Wrong. Guns aren't the issue:

"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups."

"We estimate the risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race, and sex."

See (Figure 1)

The aspect of race is amplified through this. I don't see police violence as a specifically black issue but it is worse in black communities.

Holy crap you don't see the disparity with police encounters/killings among African-Americans? Wow such blindness on your part:

Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

"Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

I guess we also have plenty to talk about with respect to people who obviously were not threats and lethal force was used anyway. But I feel like reducing the lethality of the police can't even really start to be considered till the previous issue is dealt with.

I feel like when people reduce the problem of African-Americans (and other members of color) being disproportionately stopped by police (e.g. Stop and Frisk) as not being a statistical issue, it is a problem, not guns. Obviously you didn't even attentively listen to the cop charged with manslaughter who he himself before the mother ripped him a new one, exclaimed about police reform.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Wrong. Guns aren't the issue:

"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups."

"We estimate the risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race, and sex."

See (Figure 1)

Holy crap you don't see the disparity with police encounters/killings among African-Americans? Wow such blindness on your part:

Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

"Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/



I feel like when people reduce the problem of African-Americans (and other members of color) being disproportionately stopped by police (e.g. Stop and Frisk) as not being a statistical issue, it is a problem, not guns. Obviously you didn't even attentively listen to the cop charged with manslaughter who he himself before the mother ripped him a new one, exclaimed about police reform.

At ease comrade. You have misunderstood my post. I was talking to him about the gun thing because I know who he is and his stance on guns. It was an angle of discussion made specifically for that conversation. It wasn't in response to your original post. I agreed with it and the thoughts that I would have added have already been said in earlier comments.

To clarify, police violence is a problem. Race is a multiplier of that problem. AA are 2x as likely to be killed by a cop than white people. That is a problem. But I ALSO have a problem with the number of white people being killed. Even if all AA deaths were equal to white deaths it would still be a MASSIVE problem. This isn't about the POC community having guns but the fact that this whole country is inundated with guns.

I'm not saying we should ignore the racial aspect of it. Far from it. Police brutality on minority communities is but a single part of a much larger whole of institutional racism. These are systems that can be changed. Even if we can fix "racism" entirely the number of people being killed by police is too high in this country. If a town is flooded everyone is in danger. The people living on lower ground are in more danger. But stopping the flood is still a good idea.

And to throw you for one last loop I am pro-gun ownership.

 

[Friend of Mara]

"Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate."

God this is nitpicky but whoever wrote that quote either didn't think or didn't take a statistics class. Its accurate. Its terrible. But what does the rate have to do with the percentage of the population? If its X out of every Y of Z group the percentage Z takes up of the whole doesn't matter. It almost sounded like a dogwhistle for a conservative talking point.