This is why Black Lives SHOULD Matter

[Aštra’el]

How much of it is really the police though?

I mean, how much of the whole “getting shot while resisting arrest after committing a felony” part is a cultural issue/ lack of discipline/ poor choices on the part of the “victim”?

 

[Friend of Mara]

How much of it is really the police though?

I mean, how much of the whole “getting shot while resisting arrest after committing a felony” part is a cultural issue/ lack of discipline/ poor choices on the part of the “victim”?

Every person shot by police is innocent.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Every person shot by police is innocent.

 

[Revoltingest]

Every person shot by police is innocent.

Technically, having not yet been convicted of anything.
But we shouldn't ignore circumstances where it's appropriate
for cops to shoot people. The trick is to ensure that cops
conduct themselves accordingly....no wrongful shootings
or beatings.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Due process. Every person is innocent until proven guilty. If a person has not received a trial and verdict they are innocent. The police are not extrajudicial executioners. They do not have that power. Even with their own guidelines they are only allowed to use lethality when there is danger of bodily harm or death to themselves or others. Fleeing from the police is not grounds to shoot a suspect after the Edward Garner case in 1974. Though the supreme court decision in 1985 changed something significant. It was a sort of catch all that any case involving police shootings should be seen through the lens of "heat of the moment" rather than hindsight. Thus this is what has caused the justification of nearly any police action that was either thrown out or exonerated in court.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Technically, having not yet been convicted of anything.
But we shouldn't ignore circumstances where it's appropriate
for cops to shoot people. The trick is to ensure that cops
conduct themselves accordingly....no wrongful shootings
or beatings.

yeah. In my other response I went into more detail. Though the point I was making is that you cannot make a moral argument that "they deserved it anyway". That is the slippery slope that everyone always falls down. It more often than not seems to be character assassination rather than justification. The George Zimmerman case comes to mind.

The other more important point I probably should have made astreal is "no" its not that America is just a hive of belligerent cop fighters compared to other countries that have far fewer people killed by police each year. And the logical next step to his point was that "is the black community just a belligerent lawless people that need to be put down by police from time to time". This is explicitly false.

 

[Revoltingest]

And the logical next step to his point was that "is the black community just a belligerent lawless people that need to be put down by police from time to time". This is explicitly false.

Whose point?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Whose point?

post #61

 

[Epic Beard Man]

At ease comrade. You have misunderstood my post. I was talking to him about the gun thing because I know who he is and his stance on guns. It was an angle of discussion made specifically for that conversation. It wasn't in response to your original post. I agreed with it and the thoughts that I would have added have already been said in earlier comments.

To clarify, police violence is a problem. Race is a multiplier of that problem. AA are 2x as likely to be killed by a cop than white people. That is a problem. But I ALSO have a problem with the number of white people being killed. Even if all AA deaths were equal to white deaths it would still be a MASSIVE problem. This isn't about the POC community having guns but the fact that this whole country is inundated with guns.

I'm not saying we should ignore the racial aspect of it. Far from it. Police brutality on minority communities is but a single part of a much larger whole of institutional racism. These are systems that can be changed. Even if we can fix "racism" entirely the number of people being killed by police is too high in this country. If a town is flooded everyone is in danger. The people living on lower ground are in more danger. But stopping the flood is still a good idea.

And to throw you for one last loop I am pro-gun ownership.

my apologies

 

[Epic Beard Man]

God this is nitpicky but whoever wrote that quote either didn't think or didn't take a statistics class. Its accurate. Its terrible. But what does the rate have to do with the percentage of the population? If its X out of every Y of Z group the percentage Z takes up of the whole doesn't matter. It almost sounded like a dogwhistle for a conservative talking point.

Well whites are the majority and blacks are the minority however despite being the minority the rate to which death occurs (or that which is reported) is higher despite being a minority.

 

[Revoltingest]

post #61

I don't see the poster making this point....

And the logical next step to his point was that "is the black community just a belligerent lawless people that need to be put down by police from time to time". This is explicitly false.

Instead, it's that some people act in a
manner that justifies shooting them.
Ref...

...how much of the whole “getting shot while resisting arrest after committing a felony” part is a cultural issue/ lack of discipline/ poor choices on the part of the “victim”?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Well whites are the majority and blacks are the minority however despite being the minority the rate to which death occurs (or that which is reported) is higher despite being a minority.

On average they are higher. The chances for a black man to be killed by police is about 2x as likely as a white man. Total deaths are higher for white people. The problem with this is a lot of conservatives like to talk about how whites are killed more than blacks. This is a harmful distinction that ignores the only stat that actually matters which is the percentage of each.

The reason why I had to double take is because the first half of the sentence made me think they were gonna state the 13:50 stat. Another statistic while technically true is not accounted for my various other factors that don't support the conservative position. Maybe it was just an unintentional wording but it made my dogwhistle sense go off.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I don't see the poster making this point....

Did they block you? Can you even block people here?

Instead, it's that some people act in a
manner that justifies shooting them.
Ref...

While that does happen it doesn't account for the statistics. Unless we are saying Americans just act dozens of times more violently than comparable nations.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

On average they are higher. The chances for a black man to be killed by police is about 2x as likely as a white man. Total deaths are higher for white people. The problem with this is a lot of conservatives like to talk about how whites are killed more than blacks. This is a harmful distinction that ignores the only stat that actually matters which is the percentage of each.

The reason why I had to double take is because the first half of the sentence made me think they were gonna state the 13:50 stat. Another statistic while technically true is not accounted for my various other factors that don't support the conservative position. Maybe it was just an unintentional wording but it made my dogwhistle sense go off.

Bingo...all facts

 

[Revoltingest]

Did they block you? Can you even block people here?

Posters can be placed on <ignore>.
I don't do that.
I see the post, but don't see your inference derived from it.

While that does happen it doesn't account for the statistics. Unless we are saying Americans just act dozens of times more violently than comparable nations.

There is this study...
6 Facts From New Study Finding NO RACIAL BIAS Against Blacks In Police Shootings | The Daily Wire
Interesting...R Fryer is black.
Other researchers disagree, so there is less than full consensus.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Did they block you? Can you even block people here?

While that does happen it doesn't account for the statistics. Unless we are saying Americans just act dozens of times more violently than comparable nations.

Probably talking about me. I'm not going to entertain his conservative BS. Ya'll seen the video the cop was guilty but his conservatism can't keep him from being empathetic to black people. Quite frankly he has racial prejudices.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem with this is a lot of conservatives like to talk about how whites are killed more than blacks. This is a harmful distinction that ignores the only stat that actually matters which is the percentage of each.

Matters to whom? The twice as large number of white
victims, their friends, & families would disagree.
To those of us who look at the larger picture of all wrongful
police shootings, the total numbers should guide the design
of solutions.
As I said before, it would be a terrible failure if blacks were
killed at the same rates that whites currently are. That's
not nearly good enuf.

 

[Revoltingest]

Probably talking about me. I'm not going to entertain his conservative BS. Ya'll seen the video the cop was guilty but his conservatism can't keep him from being empathetic to black people. Quite frankly he has racial prejudices.

Not enuf clarity in this thread about who's addressing whom.
It appears that you're addressing me.
If not, then good.

Spoiler: If so, then I'd post this in response....

 

[Friend of Mara]

Posters can be placed on <ignore>.
I don't do that.
I see the post, but don't see your inference derived from it.

"Its not the police that are in the wrong."
"It is the people that are in the wrong."
|"America has the highest lethality of police interactions of any developed nations"
"Therefore America is proportionally more deserving of lethal police interactions."
Sub points
"Black Americans suffer at a disproportionately higher rate compared to the general public in police lethality"
"Therefore Black Americans are more deserving of lethal interactions with police."
That is the breakdown as I concluded from that post.

There is this study...
6 Facts From New Study Finding NO RACIAL BIAS Against Blacks In Police Shootings | The Daily Wire
Interesting...R Fryer is black.
Other researchers disagree, so there is less than full consensus.

It is an interesting article. I might try to look at the study if it is publicly available. I'm not taking as the be all end all when we have many other sources that contradict it but I still want to read it.

Though the only thing that made me hesitant about it was the "digging deeper to make sure we are comparing apples to apples". When we start mixing multiple and sometimes arbitrary variables it becomes easy to make the numbers say whatever we want. And at the end of the day we have the solid number that black men are twice as likely to be killed by police officers than white men. So that is the starting point. "Why?" is the next step.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Its not the police that are in the wrong."
"It is the people that are in the wrong."
|"America has the highest lethality of police interactions of any developed nations"
"Therefore America is proportionally more deserving of lethal police interactions."
Sub points
"Black Americans suffer at a disproportionately higher rate compared to the general public in police lethality"
"Therefore Black Americans are more deserving of lethal interactions with police."
That is the breakdown as I concluded from that post.

It is an interesting article. I might try to look at the study if it is publicly available. I'm not taking as the be all end all when we have many other sources that contradict it but I still want to read it.

Though the only thing that made me hesitant about it was the "digging deeper to make sure we are comparing apples to apples". When we start mixing multiple and sometimes arbitrary variables it becomes easy to make the numbers say whatever we want. And at the end of the day we have the solid number that black men are twice as likely to be killed by police officers than white men. So that is the starting point. "Why?" is the next step.

It's confusing to use quotation marks for text that isn't
actually in the post. I've given up trying to sort that out.

What I inferred is that there could be social factors that
result in disparate effects over & above those due to police
racism. This will make many uncomfortable, but it's a
reasonable speculation. And the one research link I
provided comports with this.
No individuals deserve to be shot or abused because
they belong to this or that group.

What do you think of the male/female ration of 20/1
shootings? Is that due to misandry or could social
factors leading to partial justification be at work?