This is why Black Lives SHOULD Matter

[Friend of Mara]

Matters to whom? The twice as large number of white
victims, their friends, & families would disagree.
To those of us who look at the larger picture of all wrongful
police shootings, the total numbers should guide the design
of solutions.
As I said before, it would be a terrible failure if blacks were
killed at the same rates that whites currently are. That's
not nearly good enuf.

Agreed. As I stated in another post earlier I see them as two issues. Racism is an issue (institutional is the one I like to focus on). Police brutality is another issue. They intersect in an unfortunately volatile way. Though I suppose they still aren't totally separate as part of the founding of police duties was directly from a southern racist strategy after the civil war. But equally so they were after the Pickertons who were simply being the beast stick of those in power. So it is a complicated thing with a harry history. And whats worse is that during this long and difficult to follow history there has been an evolved façade made of justifications to mask hidden intent.

 

[Friend of Mara]

It's confusing to use quotation marks for text that isn't
actually in the post. I've given up trying to sort that out.

What I inferred is that there could be social factors that
result in disparate effects over & above those due to police
racism. This will make many uncomfortable, but it's a
reasonable speculation. And the one research link I
provided comports with this.

Perhaps I should use some other kind of notation. In logic or philosophy courses they break down specific points, sub-points and the relations. Normally marked with quotations. So in the past one I was just trying to make bullet points.

I think I agree to the bulk of what you are saying. I don't think a racist cop gets up in the morning, drinks his coffee, puts its pants on one leg at a time and looks in the mirror and decides to murder a black 13 year old. Its a systemic issue. Though direct racism plays a roll its not something we can really even fight. But the system is a thing. Its something we can change. So far in this thread we see the results and most of the arguing is about the cause.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps I should use some other kind of notation. In logic or philosophy courses they break down specific points, sub-points and the relations. Normally marked with quotations. So in the past one I was just trying to make bullet points.

I think I agree to the bulk of what you are saying. I don't think a racist cop gets up in the morning, drinks his coffee, puts its pants on one leg at a time and looks in the mirror and decides to murder a black 13 year old. Its a systemic issue. Though direct racism plays a roll its not something we can really even fight. But the system is a thing. Its something we can change. So far in this thread we see the results and most of the arguing is about the cause.

So many causes.
Some I can immediately think of....
- Racism towards minorities (by white & black cops).
- Cop culture: The blue wall. Feel superior to us. Impunity. Bullies.
- Court culture: Trust cops, & cut'm slack.
- Legislative culture: Cops are heroes. Protect them, & dis ordinary citizens.
- Media culture: Portray policing as far more dangerous than it is.
(Cops aren't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.)
This makes cops paranoid.
- Sexism: Males are more dangerous. Women are safer...& hotter.
So 20 times as many men are shot.
- Inadequate training.
- Pay is too low to attract the best candidates.
- Expecting cops to wear too many hats, ie, doing too many disparate
jobs, eg, law enforcement, mental health service, diffusing conflict.

 

[Friend of Mara]

So many causes.
Some I can immediately think of....
- Racism towards minorities (by white & black cops).
- Cop culture: The blue wall. Feel superior to us. Impunity. Bullies.
- Court culture: Trust cops, & cut'm slack.
- Legislative culture: Cops are heroes. Protect them, & dis ordinary citizens.
- Media culture: Portray policing as far more dangerous than it is.
(Cops aren't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.)
This makes cops paranoid.
- Sexism: Males are more dangerous. Women are safer...& hotter.

I would say all of these are true. I think the intentional disenfranchisement of minority communities that have forced them into poverty is also a large one. Then there is the drug war. The subsequent over policing of disenfranchised neighborhoods. May it be unconscious or conscious bias we have a disparity on not on the conviction rate but also the severity of sentencing for many minority groups.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would say all of these are true. I think the intentional disenfranchisement of minority communities that have forced them into poverty is also a large one. Then there is the drug war. The subsequent over policing of disenfranchised neighborhoods. May it be unconscious or conscious bias we have a disparity on not on the conviction rate but also the severity of sentencing for many minority groups.

I sense that even some Dems & Pubs are slightly coming
around to the Libertarian view...end the War On Drugs.
Providing help for those suffering from drug abuse is
better than massive incarceration.

 

[Revoltingest]

BTW, @Friend of Mara, you respond so quickly
that I'm still editing the posts you quote.
If this causes any confusion or consternation,
it's entirely my fault. But I can't stop.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I sense that even some Dems & Pubs are slightly coming
around to the Libertarian view...end the War On Drugs.
Providing help for those suffering from drug abuse is
better than massive incarceration.

I think a lot of Libertarian views are great views. The only problem is that I only agree with like...2/3 of it before I feel like it gets silly. Like we agree on guns, legality of drugs, ect but then someone is like "end public schooling" and I get a migraine.

BTW, @Friend of Mara, you respond so quickly
that I'm still editing the posts you quote.
If this causes any confusion or consternation,
it's entirely my fault. But I can't stop.

Its all good on my end so far. I'll see if I can space out my replies.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think a lot of Libertarian views are great views. The only problem is that I only agree with like...2/3 of it before I feel like it gets silly. Like we agree on guns, legality of drugs, ect but then someone is like "end public schooling" and I get a migraine.

I don't recall the party ever having
"end public schooling" in its platform.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I don't recall the party ever having
"end public schooling" in its platform.

Lol granted that one was from an internet thread. But I think you get my jist. Public healthcare and making college affordable are good examples of things I clash with.

Though perhaps at least they could find some middleground with me if I say that I want the government out of healthcare as much as possible and simply be involved with funding.

 

[danieldemol]

I'll admit that I know nothing of the inner workings of the law, but I was frankly shocked to hear that this officer only got three years for shooting the lady's son in the back. I'm honestly not surprised that she is angry.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

My curiosity for the nonsensical got the best of me so in the following I'm responding to posts that I had missed from a "certain individual" that I'll be addressing here in the following:

It would be a darn shame if police treatment of blacks
rose only to the level of their treatment of whites.

#12Revoltingest, Yesterday at 9:20 AM

Ah yes, the fallacious "Trumpian" logic reminds me of the following:

"Why are African Americans still dying at the hands of law enforcement in this country?" Herridge asked.

"So are white people. So are white people," Trump replied. "What a terrible question to ask. So are white people. More white people, by the way. More white people."

I don't want to regurgitate the truth again, but according to USA Today:

"Black people are killed in police encounters at higher rates than white people, multiple studies have confirmed. Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men, according to a University of Michigan, Rutgers University and Washington University study released last year. The study found that about 100 Black men and boys per 100,000, and 39 white men and boys per 100,000, are killed by police during their lifetimes."

Reference:Trump: 'More white people' killed by police, Confederate flag is free speech

Or if you don't want to believe the presumed "liberal USA Today" you can also see the following:

See:Infographic: Black Americans 2.5X More Likely Than Whites to Be Killed By Police

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Don't get me wrong; yes I agree that there are problems in certain areas, but not all areas of the country that exhibit anomisity or prejudice against blakcs.
However, what I do not see is the outcry against what, for example, went on in Chicago over the 4th of July holiday period, or the problems in New York City and lthe majority of large cities in the country.
In the words of VP Harris....what is the root cause.
The idea that it is a "gun" problem is nothing more than a defelection; guns don't walk around and shoot people...people shoot people. Yes, there is an issue of guns in the wrong hands; but you have to look beyond the easy explaination.

esmith, Yesterday at 9:18 AM

This whole entire post smells of deflection. When we complain about police violence people point to troubled areas like Chicago, New York, etc. Unless you understand the nature of inner-city violence you can never this as an argument against speaking out against police violence against people of color.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Reactionary left-wingers have their issues too. (Oh this is rich!)
- They're unaware that more whites are shot by cops than
blacks (who are only shot in a greater percentage of their
population). This is something I've had to correct, even on
RF.

EBM: Whites are approximately 60% in the United States (Until 2040 haha) so obviously more whites mean more encounters with the police mean more likelihood of more death based on the population but I believe if we are talking about the rate of death. Per my aforementioned statistical graph. Also, another deflection made by conservative whites regarding police encounters again with the supposed "black on black" killings. I wish right-wingers address the disparities and debate in logic fashion not deflect.

- Another is that they make the problem solely about racism
of white cops. Yet racism towards blacks is exhibited by black
cops too (research I heard in a Hidden Brain podcast.) Diversity
hires can be useful, but won't fix that problem.

EBM: Who is "they?" As far as racial bias in policing is concerned let us address the following:

Racial/Ethnic Disparities In Enforcement Remain Similar Post-Training

In 2018, post-training enforcement behavior was similar to pre-training behavior. More than half of all people stopped were Black, and about 30% were Hispanic. In contrast, the overall population of New York City is 24% Black and 29% Hispanic.

Reference:NYPD Study: Implicit Bias Training Changes Minds, Not Necessarily Behavior

As with regard for using black officers apparently, you don't even know what racism is. If I, a black man, have a negative interaction with a black police officer, it is not racism it is my reaction with that police officer and the type of encounter I have with him/her. That type of logic you used is similar to the same idiotic logic I've seen conservatives make such as "it's racism to talk about racism."


- Their excessive demonization of cops is making the problem
worse by making it difficult to retain & hire cops...even good ones.

Just say "African-Americans" or black people instead of codifying your prejudices using covert dialectical means to reference my demographic. The demonization of cops stems from systemic racism and years of corruption. Apparently you're not aware of the implicit racial bias cops have exhibited for years in fact policing can be traced back to the slave patrols so let us not assume the foundation of police work is grounded upon some solid morals.



- This attitude....

Revoltingest, Yesterday at 4:52 PM

You ignorantly used the picture of a black man whose posture you might deem has attitude, but upon looking at his shirt the message is clear. Until All lives truly matter, BLACK LIVES MUST MATTER.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

"How come liberal left wingers expect us all to watch
potentially stupid videos instead of writing a cogent
argument of their own?"
Revoltingest, Yesterday at 6:43 PM

I don't expect you to do anything except continue to parrot the idiotic narrative your overlord Trump has instilled in your ilk. I wanted to post the video as a means to show the poignant and emotional aspect of police misconduct and the disparities of policing. Many professors and scholars have often explained the concept of Black Lives Matter (or even in recent Critical Race Theory), but far too often conservative cognition can never grasp the logic of clear explanation, and because conservatives especially those who watch Fox News love to show videos of African-American "hostility," then it would be best to show a video of a mother's grief which encapsulates the anger in the black community when it comes to disparities in police conduct.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

"People always be wanting me to watch their videos."
Revoltingest, Yesterday at 6:56 PM
Last edited: Yesterday at 7:30 PM

As @Lyndon said what a stupid comment. I don't make posts for you to participate in, in fact, I rather you avoid whatever I post altogether because, you know, the block feature works just fine.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lol granted that one was from an internet thread. But I think you get my jist. Public healthcare and making college affordable are good examples of things I clash with.

One will always find something to clash with in any party.
But where does one feel most at home?
Where can one be most useful to effect good policy?

Though perhaps at least they could find some middleground with me if I say that I want the government out of healthcare as much as possible and simply be involved with funding.

My party membership hasn't been revoked for agreeing
with you, ie, government funded privately supplied health
care for all.

 

[Jose Fly]

a lot of their responses seem to be based in racist attitudes IMHO For instance they'll tell you that more whites are shot by cops ( they only amount for about 50% of police shootings, while they are a much higher percent of the population), not that Blacks are 3 times more likely to be shot by cops, which is the fact.

I see too many post bland replies that are little more than "Yeah well I disagree". Not much one can do with that.

 

[Jose Fly]

The conservatives seem to thrive on fear-mongering, and it seems to have escalated in recent times. I listen to the local Fox News affiliate when I'm driving to and from work. They've been harping a lot on the so-called "election fraud," but lately it seems that's gone to the back burner in favor of Critical Race Theory. They see it as some kind of Marxist/Communist indoctrination. They see the country on the verge of a commie takeover. (As much as I would like that to be true, it won't ever be true, not in my lifetime.)

It's a modernized version of McCarthyism.

I frequent right-wing news sites and listen to conservative Christian radio a fair bit, and one thing that's become abundantly clear is that they feel threatened. From their POV, their status and place in America is slipping away as the country moves away from Christianity, becomes more ethnically diverse, and tolerates LGBTQs more. Recently I saw an analysis that showed many of the Jan. 6 insurrectionists were from parts of the country that used to be white conservative Christian strongholds, but are becoming more diverse and liberal.

From what I can tell, all of those things together both frighten them and make them extremely angry. As we all saw, Trump tapped directly into all that, fanned the flames, and told them they had to fight against it all. It'll be interesting to say the least to see where this all goes.

In fairness, though, it's not just the conservatives who aren't trying. Liberals and progressives could try harder to communicate with "Middle America" (for lack of a better term) in terms they can understand. A lot of people are just plain scared, and people in that state of mind are easier for political opportunists to manipulate.

That's true, but surveys show the things those middle Americans are concerned about are not things Democrats can really connect with them on. They're not about to speak to, and connect with, their racial anxieties, hatred of LGBTQs, and theocratic wishes.

 

[Jose Fly]

If they go off, a lot of cops have strong ties to them. Like a sheriff in Michigan who said he wasn't sure if those guys who planned on abducting the mayor where breaking the law and saying they may even have more Constitutional authority than the agencies who arrested them.

That is certainly true.

And, while it is true America is awash with guns, lots and lots and lots of Americans don't have or don't carry them. What drives the average up is handfuls of individuals who hoard them.

Yep, very true.

And while they are scared of guns, by leaps and bounds covid killed more cops than anything else, but lots of cops refused to enforcement covid restrictions. Their job consistently isn't even one of the top 10 most deadly. But with things like no knock warrants the police potentially pose a severe threat to any of us.

That's one of the reasons I tell my kids, both of whom want to move to a different state, to be sure to pick their state wisely.

 

[Jose Fly]

How much of it is really the police though?

I mean, how much of the whole “getting shot while resisting arrest after committing a felony” part is a cultural issue/ lack of discipline/ poor choices on the part of the “victim”?

You should read this study: Body cams reveal U.S. police use less respectful language with black drivers | Science | AAAS (sciencemag.org)

My own experiences confirm this. I've had very different experiences with police when I was pulled over while with my black friends than when I was with my white friends.