This thread is so gay

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since when did homosexuals get ownership over the word gay? If I say something is "so gay," the context has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Unless you're describing someone who's really, really happy, then the context is derived from homosexuality... or at least prejudices against homosexuality.

 

[Falvlun]

Since when did homosexuals get ownership over the word gay? If I say something is "so gay," the context has nothing to do with homosexuality. Of course, I don't use the phrase in front of gay people, but that's because I'm just a sensitive guy.

How do you think African-Americans would respond if we started using "That's so black" to mean that something has something wrong with it?

Black people don't own the word "black". Black even has other definitions: it is the color that absorbs all light. But, do you think it really is innocent to suddenly ascribe a new, derogatory definition to the word "black"?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Language evolves.

Even regarding the word ni**er, there are white kids who call each other n, and there are mixed-race groups of friend who call each other n. These kids aren't offended by the use, because the context has changed, and they're using it in their own way. No offense is meant by them, so none is taken.

This is how many people use the phrase "so gay." I realize not everyone uses it, or even understands the use of it, in this context, however language evolving is simply a fact of life. You can argue about it all day if you want, but if something isn't meant to be offensive, and the people involved understand this contextual usage, then there is nothing offensive about its use in that context.

 

[Revoltingest]

Language evolves.

Even regarding the word ni**er, there are white kids who call each other n, and there are mixed-race groups of friend who call each other n. These kids aren't offended by the use, because the context has changed, and they're using it in their own way. No offense is meant by them, so none is taken.

This is how many people use the phrase "so gay." I realize not everyone uses it, or even understands the use of it, in this context, however language evolving is simply a fact of life. You can argue about it all day if you want, but if something isn't meant to be offensive, and the people involved understand this contextual usage, then there is nothing offensive about its use in that context.

Tis certainly complicated & dynamic. I note that even those who rail against using "gay" in this fashion have their own insults for other groups whom
they don't like. I don't bring this up to call anyone hypocritical, but rather to urge some tolerance for minor insults & taunting which most of us do.
After all, how much fun would this forum be if we all had to be scrupulously polite? I call some of my friends knuckle walking fundies & they call me
a heathen puppy eater. When there is no terrible malice intended, then it's no big deal.

 

[Panda]

Like someone else said we use the b word for someone from unmarried parents as an insult without cognitively associating it with them, how is this different?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Like someone else said we use the b word for someone from unmarried parents as an insult without cognitively associating it with them, how is this different?

You're so Irish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Language evolves.

Even regarding the word ni**er, there are white kids who call each other n, and there are mixed-race groups of friend who call each other n. These kids aren't offended by the use, because the context has changed, and they're using it in their own way. No offense is meant by them, so none is taken.

You're joking, right? Any number of people overhearing that could be majorly offended - and rightly so.

This is how many people use the phrase "so gay." I realize not everyone uses it, or even understands the use of it, in this context, however language evolving is simply a fact of life. You can argue about it all day if you want, but if something isn't meant to be offensive, and the people involved understand this contextual usage, then there is nothing offensive about its use in that context.

By the same token, you can't ignore the etymology or established definitions of words.

And I don't really see any difference between your justification of the phrase "so gay" and other people's justifications of phrasing like "'jewing' someone". There really is no difference. Even if you personally don't see the big deal, you should be able to recognize that it's going to be a big deal to many other people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like someone else said we use the b word for someone from unmarried parents as an insult without cognitively associating it with them, how is this different?

Personally, I avoid the term "*******", too.

I will use the phrase "pig ******" to describe people who do things I don't like, and I suppose this draws a link between bad behaviour and bestiality, but I don't care - if I'm denigrating bestiality, that's fine with me.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You're joking, right? Any number of people overhearing that could be majorly offended - and rightly so.

By the same token, you can't ignore the etymology or established definitions of words.

And I don't really see any difference between your justification of the phrase "so gay" and other people's justifications of phrasing like "'jewing' someone". There really is no difference. Even if you personally don't see the big deal, you should be able to recognize that it's going to be a big deal to many other people.

Hence, why you don't use it front of people that will be offended. Unless you don't mind offending them, of course. Then again, this has nothing to do with the term being offensive when used within a group where none of the people involved are offended.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hence, why you don't use it front of people that will be offended. Unless you don't mind offending them, of course. Then again, this has nothing to do with the term being offensive when used within a group where none of the people involved are offended.

Sure it does. There's a difference between a word that's not inherently insulting at all and an insulting word you only use around people who you know won't take offense from it.

Edit: but where and when you use a word has nothing to do with which settings you choose to use it in. The term "gay" as a negative label comes from prejudicial language against homosexual people. The fact that you're not personally offended when you hear "gay" used in this way doesn't change this fact.

 

[Panda]

Personally, I avoid the term "*******", too.

I will use the phrase "pig ******" to describe people who do things I don't like, and I suppose this draws a link between bad behaviour and bestiality, but I don't care - if I'm denigrating bestiality, that's fine with me.

But you do see the comparison yes?

I generally am not offended by words themselves and it is all to do with the context.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sure it does. There's a difference between a word that's not inherently insulting at all and an insulting word you only use around people who you know won't take offense from it.

Language isn't inherently anything. Language only has meaning specific to the context of those using it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But you do see the comparison yes?

Sure, and I think that part of the reason why the b-word is generally considered more socially acceptable is that it's no longer an accepted term for a child born out of wedlock, so the mental link between the guy who cuts you off on the highway and a child whose parents weren't married isn't as strong. OTOH, "gay" is a completely accepted synonym for homosexual, and it's a very common word.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Language isn't inherently anything. Language only has meaning specific to the context of those using it.

But "those using it" isn't just the speaker. Language is a means of communication between a speaker and a listener; both are using language.

And while meanings of words can vary somewhat from person to person, etymology doesn't. The question of what the origin of a word was is a question of objective fact, and in this case, it's a matter of fact that the term "gay" when used in the sense "that's so gay" does have an etymological link to homosexuality, and that link is very recent, very strong, and very well-known to virtually anyone using the term. IMO, it's dishonest to suggest otherwise.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But "those using it" isn't just the speaker. Language is a means of communication between a speaker and a listener; both are using language.

And while meanings of words can vary somewhat from person to person, etymology doesn't. The question of what the origin of a word was is a question of objective fact, and in this case, it's a matter of fact that the term "gay" when used in the sense "that's so gay" does have an etymological link to homosexuality, and that link is very recent, very strong, and very well-known to virtually anyone using the term. IMO, it's dishonest to suggest otherwise.

People generally aren't thinking of etymology when they use words. They use words in the context of the associations they've learned in conjunction with words and phrases.

You can think it's dishonest all you want, but I learned the phrase "so gay," long before I had any idea what homosexual meant, or what a homosexual was. Obviously, I had no association with "gay" and "homosexual," therefore when I was using the word, I was not attempting to offend homosexuals or denigrate homosexuality - I didn't even know what it was. Therefore, the phrase "so gay" had nothing to do with homosexuals for me, and, in my mind, this phrase already had a context by the time I learned what homosexuality was.

This is the case with many kids, and, these days, is similarly the case with many kids with the N word. Contexts change, language evolves. These things far outweigh etymology in people's perception of language usage.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People generally aren't thinking of etymology when they use words. They use words in the context of the associations they've learned in conjunction with words and phrases.

They might not be thinking of the term "etymology", but it doesn't take a lot to think that, just maybe, there might be a link between two concepts when the same word is used for both.

You can think it's dishonest all you want, but I learned the phrase "so gay," long before I had any idea what homosexual meant, or what a homosexual was. Obviously, I had no association with "gay" and "homosexual," therefore when I was using the word, I was not attempting to offend homosexuals or denigrate homosexuality - I didn't even know what it was. Therefore, the phrase "so gay" had nothing to do with homosexuals for me, and, in my mind, this phrase already had a context by the time I learned what homosexuality was.

"Gay" has been a common word in general use for a homosexual person at least since the Stonewall riots in 1969, if not before. AFAICT, "that's so gay" has been a common expression for maybe the last decade. I'd say that your experience probably isn't typical, except for kids who have a seriously sheltered upbringing.

This is the case with many kids, and, these days, is similarly the case with many kids with the N word. Contexts change, language evolves. These things far outweigh etymology in people's perception of language usage.

I can kinda see your point with the N-word, just because it's such a major cultural taboo that a kid very well might go for years without ever hearing it. However, I'd say it's near-impossible for a child to grow up today, in this culture, without learning that "gay" means "homosexual".

 

[Magic Man]

You don't? That's what it implies.

Yes, I'm sure to some people it does. To the people I use it around it does not, nor does it to me.

I think you kind of are, actually.

OK, but I'm not.

Not on your part, maybe, but you do realize that there is a link in the minds of others, right?

I can understand that some people see it that way, but it's not the intended way. Of course, as others have said, I am careful not to use it in certain situations because I understand that it could be offensive to some people. I guess to me it's like a joke about Jews or something. I tell all kinds of offensive jokes to people I know will understand them in the right context, but I would never tell certain jokes in mixed company. When I tell the jokes, I'm not actually saying there's something wrong with blondes or Jews or that the implications of the joke are actually true. I'm just saying something that's funny because of the stereotypes about certain groups, even if those stereotypes aren't true.

Weren't you the one who just finished telling someone in another thread how they don't get to just make up their own definitions to established words?

Yes, why?

 

[Falvlun]

Just because you don't intend it to be insulting to gay people does not mean that it isn't. It also doesn't mean that the usage of the word gay in a derogatory sense doesn't subconcsiouly cause you, or your listeners, to link the concept of gay with being uncool, wrong, etc.

It's like in Talledega Nights: Just because you say "With all due respect" before you say something, doesn't mean that you get to say anything you want. You can say that you don't mean to be offensive, but the fact is, you are being offensive.

 

[Magic Man]

Sure, and I think that part of the reason why the b-word is generally considered more socially acceptable is that it's no longer an accepted term for a child born out of wedlock, so the mental link between the guy who cuts you off on the highway and a child whose parents weren't married isn't as strong. OTOH, "gay" is a completely accepted synonym for homosexual, and it's a very common word.

Right, and at some point in time I'm guessing the b word was used both to mean a boy born out of wedlock and as an insult.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

They might not be thinking of the term "etymology", but it doesn't take a lot to think that, just maybe, there might be a link between two concepts when the same word is used for both.

Sure, as long as there is an awareness of both concepts.

"Gay" has been a common word in general use for a homosexual person at least since the Stonewall riots in 1969, if not before. AFAICT, "that's so gay" has been a common expression for maybe the last decade. I'd say that your experience probably isn't typical, except for kids who have a seriously sheltered upbringing.

I was born in 1974, grew up in various parts of the country, and the term "so gay" or "something is gay" was commonly used by kids around the country. Perhaps your unawareness of the term is more an issue of being sheltered.

As for being aware of what homosexual actually was, there wasn't any open discussion or portrayal of homosexuality when I was kid, nor was there an internet. I doubt most kids really knew what homosexual meant at 6 years old back then. Assuming that kids at that age can really understand it anyway.

I can kinda see your point with the N-word, just because it's such a major cultural taboo that a kid very well might go for years without ever hearing it. However, I'd say it's near-impossible for a child to grow up today, in this culture, without learning that "gay" means "homosexual".

Indeed, but that still doesn't eliminate the possibility of people have two completely separate contexts for the same word. At the end of the day, it's all about intention and context.