Those sayings in the Psalms

[LAGoff]

I have not found a mechanism in Judaism or Tanakh that can catapult or spring my spiritual development into the next level like [the concept of] the Holy Spirit in the NT did for me. (actually, I got 'It' via ACIM / A Course in Miracles)
I know there are some passages in Tanakh (mostly in Psalms) that talk about "casting your burdens on Hashem and He will provide"; "Hashem is my shepherd, I shall not lack", etc., but I haven't found a trigger or spring (mechanism) in the OT that can get me to this place.
All I have found in the OT is: do the mitsvot because this is how you show love to Hashem. This is beautiful, as far as it goes-- i.e. it activates a personal relationship with Hashem through doing a mitzvah; however, it goes no further for me. It doesn't create 'big' character / mood changes in me. But once I followed (was guided by) the Holy Spirit (ala the NT and ACIM), I changed in a 'big' way. (eg. peace, love, forgiveness)
It's too bad that I had to go outside of [Traditional] Judaism to find that, so I wonder what did the Psalmist know, do, or was involved in that precipitated those statements (see examples of verses above) that seem like things one can do with 'Holy Ghost[-NT-]power' (to quote Duvall in 'The Apostle') but were not something I could do when under 'the Law'? Thank you.

 

[LAGoff]

I would appreciate any relevant comments. The discussion below is from another religious forum website? (the OP was the same as for this thread-- see above)

• • Someone else (not me: LAGoff) wrote:
    Reading about doing Mitzvoth and expecting to be changed is like reading about fitness and expecting to get fit. You need to practice if you want to see results.
    If you want it to make a difference on how you feel, change how you behave... The Tanakh is not a book whose purpose is to make us feel good. It is a book to instruct how we should act in this world to express the authority of G-d's kingdom. Being a subject to G-d has the secondary additional effect of making us feel good and safe, but that comes afterwards.
    Sefer HaChinuch brings this as the motive behind many of the Mitzvoth: דע, כי האדם נפעל כפי פעלותיו, ולבו וכל מחשבתיו תמיד אחר מעשיו שהוא עוסק בהם אם טוב ואם רע - You must know, that a man is acted upon according to his actions; and his heart and all his thoughts always follow after the actions that he does - whether good or bad.
    In Judaism, one of the best manners to feel G-d close to us, is by coming closer to Him.
    
    
    
    LAGoff:
    
    You wrote: "Reading about doing Mitzvoth and expecting to be changed is like reading about fitness and expecting to get fit. You need to practice if you want to see results." I don't understand what you mean. I did practice it for 30 years (with no results as far as making me a more peaceful, loving, forgiving person) Are you saying that a change in "how behave" is something other than doing a mitzvah? (i.e. that's not what the mitzvoth are about) In other words, I can do the mitsvot -- which are only a service to Hashem, not a service to myself/soul -- but I if I want to change behaviorally (peace, love, forgiveness-- those qualities I associate with following the Holy Spirit, because I changed into that once I started following it), that's something I do only for myself? (a service to myself, not God)
    
    
    
    • 
      
    • 
      
      Someone else:
      The emotions that this or that belief system triggers in you are, presumably, at best of secondary importance. A dead man isn't the Messiah (and let alone a dead man whose followers impute to him acts of heresy and opposition to Torah), no matter how good or elated he makes you feel.
      Regarding the Psalm you've quoted, you're not Dovid HaMelech. Which isn't a point of severe criticism. I'm not, either. That his Bitachon and Emunah were greater than ours should hardly surprise us. But we can certainly try to learn from him and aspire to become more like him. Since we both like the Psalms, wouldn't you agree that it's a good idea to start with the very first Psalm and see what the right path is? It says:
      Happy is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stood in the way of sinners, Nor sat in the seat of the scornful. But his delight in the law of Hashem and in His law doth he meditate day and night
      When you use such phrases as "under the law," do you think that you're following in the footsteps of the Psalmist who praises the man who finds his delight in law of Hashem and meditates in it day and night? The very same Psalmist who also called the L-RD his shepherd and was utterly convinced that he shall not want.
      
      
      
      
      LAGoff:
      You make a good point about the very beginning of Psalms (delighting/meditating in His Law day and night) but if -- as you wrote -- "the emotions that this or that belief system triggers in you are, presumably, at best of secondary importance" (that would be peaceful, loving, forgiving-- I know, those aren't technically emotions, but I am using your word: 'emotions') than [your description of] Tanakh/Judaism is not for me, and so I would rather serve myself (follow the Holy Spirit and so be peaceful, loving, forgiving) than follow Hashem (do His mitsvot)
      
      
      • NetureiKarta:
        Sudden character changes are not a good thing, because when the pendulum swings far one way it swings far back. The way to true growth is little by little, through slow steady effort.
        
        
        
        
        
        LAGoff: 1 point 9 minutes ago
        Under the auspices of the Holy Spirit (i.e. following the Holy Spirit's guidance) I am much more peaceful, loving, forgiving and stronger than 'under' doing Hashem's mitsvot. I am definitely not under some 'pendulum' dynamic, as you say. Perhaps it's simply that doing Hashem's mitsvot is not my path, although for 30 years I tried my best, while under ACIM/NT/Holy Spirit, I found that that was my path 'suddenly' and' quickly'.
        • 
          
          Someone else:
          You are looking for an identical conecpt to illicit an equal response in a different religion. You aren't going to find it.
          
          
          
          LAGoff:
          I think you are saying that I am trying to get that feeling of peace, love, forgiveness and strength that the Holy Spirit /NT gives me and transfer it to Judaism, but Tanakh/Judaism doesn't have that concept, so it can't give it? I heard about the Shekhina, and how it may be the Jewish equivalent of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, the Kabbalistic matrix it is embedded in is so difficult for me to understand. I read in the Zohar that the Shekhina may be the equivalent of the Jewish Community. That is interesting, if true. We could discuss that if you want.
          
          
          • 
            
          • Someone else:
          • If you believe in the holy spirit as an actual thing then Judaism isn't for you. If you actually believe in judaism, then you believe that the holy spirit is just a made up concept that gave you a feeling, in which case you are trying to import christian infrastructure into Judaism, which will not work.
          • 
            
            
            LAGoff:
            I don't believe the Holy Spirit is an actual thing. It is 'just' a concept that works beautifully for those of us who have gone 'off the derekh'. It fits nicely with other concepts that smart, off-the-derekh people developed (aka NT via ACIM) as a replacement for the relationship with Hashem through the mitsvot. (aka, Judaism)
            
            
            Someone else:
            So what do you want dude. You just keep languishing with these obscure references to the holy spirit. You were attached to a christian idea and now you want to be a part of Judaism, so drop the nonsense baggage and embrace Judaism. Its not supposed to feel the same or give off the same aura.
            You are basically going into a supermarket having just become vegan and looking for the most realistic tasting veggie burger or hot dog instead of eating vegetables - Its a recipe for disaster. You are trying to mold Judaism into what you had with christianity.
            
            
            LAGoff:
            I guess I wanted someone here to say or show me from Tanakh (or even post-Tanakh literature) that I am forgiven (as the NT and ACIM tell me) and that I don't have to be righteous first before I can cast my burdens on Hashem and have Hashem as my Shepherd. (i.e. the deal being: the Father forgives my trespasses and so I forgive others and so I feel and give peace and love)
            "Cast your burden upon the LORD and He will sustain you; He will never allow the faltering of the RIGHTEOUS." (Ps.55:23-- Jewish version)
            So does this mean that I can't cast my burdens on Hashem until I am righteous? And therefore the peace, love and forgiveness I feel is an illusion? According to the responses here, yes, that is what Tanakh is telling me, and so that is why Judaism has that different 'feel', as you say; although it is a feel -- if I remember the feeling correctly -- of walking (holekh/halakha) with Hashem even if I am not righteous, but still able to keep walking with Him in a simple, pure personal relationship (with 'faltering') as long as I do (and study) His Tora.
            PS. Now that I think about it, isn't that verse in Psalms just telling me that I -- an unrighteous person -- can cast my burdens on Hashem and be sustained, but expect to falter, whereas the righteous won't falter? Or is that being too literal? In any event, I didn't find the mechanism in my Jewish practice to get peace, love, and forgiveness, whereas in NT/ACIM I did find a mechanism (it's actually one big mechanism). If you have found peace, love, and forgiveness through your practice of Judaism, I would like to know how (what is the mechanism and how did it get you there, although I assume you can say that it's not about a Jew getting anything, but about serving Hashem)? All well and good, if you can do that, but I need God to condescend a little, which He did after the Golden Calf, but... we can discuss how that strange chapter(s) -- especially the 13 attributes of mercy (Ex 34:6-7) -- works ('mechanisms') to obviate the need for NT/ACIM.
            
            
            Someone else:
            Beggars cannot be choosers. Do good, guard your tongue, give charity, do acts of chesed and repent of sins. You cannot expect G-D to do all the heavy lifting for you.
            You are really very lost. You have expectations and predispositions to how religion should work in your favor, and in practice and according to your values, and you are not embracing Judaism for what it actually is, thus you fall short of experiencing what you believe you should have.
            I am not going to continue this conversation because I have repeated to you that the problem you are experiencing is self imposed and you haven't gotten the message, but I wish you luck in your endeavors.
            
            
            LAGoff:
            Thanks. You too; and thanks for the dialogue and for spurring my memory just now: Jesus came for the lost, the sick, and the weak of Israel. (Mt 10:6; 15:24). I guess I forgot that. That explains everything for me.
  
  

 

[LAGoff]

Since no one has responded, perhaps I can phrase my question like this to make it more 'respondible':

The Psalms (and a few other places in the OT) are dripping with statements that tell a lost/weak/sick Jew that strength, healing, and purpose are right there for the asking; but of course, in the context (see Psalm 1:2!) of learning, meditating on, and doing the mitsvot. (the Laws)
Since all one can ever ask for (forgiveness, comfort, peace, perspective/guidance) is contained in these statements, why would one need anything else?
My answer is that this 'old' system simply didn't work for me. But if that is true, why are the Psalms (and other places in the OT) so insistent that they can work (if we just ask)? Is it simply that the old way is there to set us up for failure, as the NT ('Paul') explicitly tells us?
I had contempt for 'Paul's' answer when I was an observant Jew: i.e., that Hashem tells us to do His mitsvot and ask for the forgiveness, comfort/peace and perspective/guidance contained in Psalms and other places knowing full well that we will be disappointed and miserable in this attempt and so cry out for rescue.
But now, with the 'Messianic' ('rescue') perspective, I can accept (although with a little uneasiness) 'Paul's' answer, not because I like it per se (it still seems a little unfair and cruel-- tricksterish on God's part), but because it is exactly what happened to me. (i.e., the Law and 'the Psalms' simply didn't work for me)
I want to ask traditional, observant Jews about this from an 'existential'/experiential angle. Anyone here heard any 'existential'/experiential answer from them? (the 'Paul' answer -- although from the other side -- would be what I call an 'existential'/experiential answer) I could imagine a traditional observant Jew responding existentially/experientially: "Oh!, I and most of the observant Jews I know delight in the Law -- ala Psalm 1:2 -- and cast our burdens on Hashem...", etc.

 

[Sedim Haba]

OK, I'll take a shot at it. It won't be very good, sorry.

First off, please refrain from the OT/NT nonsense. Need I say it's Xian garbage?

Secondly, I can't really speak to the position of Paul.
As Ebionite, I am one who excludes Paul from all but historical perspectives.
In other words, I don't care about that Roman's opinion on anything.

As you are likely aware, the Prophets and the Writings do not constitute Torah.
They exist on a level far below Torah, to at best inspire and document our path.

There is only one place for truth, the Torah. Build on that, or build on sand.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Greetings,

If you don't mind I would like shorten what you written to see if I understand what your questions are. Let me know if the below is good summary.

Since all one can ever ask for (forgiveness, comfort, peace, perspective/guidance) is contained in these statements (Tehillim), why would one need anything else?

Are you asking about what the Tehillim are saying and the context they were written in?

But if that is true, why are the Psalms (and other places in the OT) so insistent that they can work (if we just ask)? Is it simply that the old way is there to set us up for failure, as the NT ('Paul') explicitly tells us?

That is actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states. I would say that what you are asking seems to be a bit influenced by the Christian perspective. My question to you here is have you been a part of a Jewish community? If so, what type?

Anyone here heard any 'existential'/experiential answer from them? (the 'Paul' answer -- although from the other side -- would be what I call an 'existential'/experiential answer) I could imagine a traditional observant Jew responding existentially/experientially: "Oh!, I and most of the observant Jews I know delight in the Law -- ala Psalm 1:2 -- and cast our burdens on Hashem...", etc.

Paul, and also the information found in the NT, is not derived from Tanakh. Most of its philosophical/theolocial context is more towards Hellonism or a perspective buiit from a break away group. Again, I think the first step may be to know from what context you learned Tanakh. In a Jewish community or outside of one?

 

[Harel13]

*Mod Post: Thread Moved to Abrahamic Religions DIR*​

 

[LAGoff]

LAGoff (me) said: ↑
But if that is true, why are the Psalms (and other places in the OT) so insistent that they can work (if we just ask)? Is it simply that the old way is there to set us up for failure, as the NT ('Paul') explicitly tells us?

You wrote: "That is actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states. I would say that what you are asking seems to be a bit influenced by the Christian perspective. My question to you here is have you been a part of a Jewish community? If so, what type?"


Thanks for answering my 'call'! I really do appreciate it.

To answer your question: No. I am not part of a Jewish community.* I pretty much isolate. Still, did Hashem say: "Cast your burdens on the Community... "or "The Community is my Shepherd...", etc.?"

You said: "[that is] actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states." Are you saying those verses don't apply to unrighteous Jews or do you mean that those verses in Tanakh that talk about casting your burden on Hashem and feeling no lack because Hashem is my Shepherd only work for righteous Jews? Or by "That is actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states" you are referring to Paul's view of the purpose of the 'OT': to set us up for failure? If the latter, I agree that it's not explicit (actually, there are explicit verses in the Tora stating the opposite: "It is not too difficult..."), although the repeated failures of the Israelites in Tanakh suggest it; and on an existential, experiential level (in my life), that is how it FEELS to me.
All I am saying is that those 'good news' verses I mentioned in Psalms (and there are many of them-- and in other places, see Ex 34:6-7) intrigue me because they seem to obviate the need for the NT/ACIM. But if you say that those verses are only for the 'righteous' (whatever that means), then I am driven back existentially/experientially to the NT (for the reasons stated there-- especially by Paul)
But if by "That is actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states" you mean that I can cast my burden on Hashem and make Him my Shepherd even without being part of a Jewish community or being 'righteous' (whatever that means. How would you define it?), then I am listening.
I mean, I did -- as Psalm 1:2 stated -- desire the Tora of Hashem and did meditate day and night on it; but it was all the 'righteousness' talk (see the previous verse-- 1:1, and the ones that follow-- esp. 4-6) that made me question and finally run (existentially/experientially) to the comfort, peace, love and forgiveness of the NT/ACIM, because if you read the whole verse (Ps 55:23-- v.22 in Christian bibles), the 'good news' seems to become bad news: "lo yee-tain le-olam mote la-tsadeek."
It was such 'mixing' of this 'good news' with 'bad' (do I have to mention the 'karet'/cut-off verses in the Tora?) that nudged me out of Judaism, because while I did study and try to do as much Tora as I could, I could never be sure that I was one of the righteous to whom those 'good news' verses in the Psalms seem to apply. (as in, "Don't apply [them] (those 'good news' verses) if you are not qualified." And if I can't apply them, or don't have sanction to, I want out!-- hence my question here).

* of course, that is a relative statement. I am (was) involved to SOME extent, just as I observe[d], to some extent the mitsvot/halakhot. I would say that I do (did) both to the best of my ability. I went to an Orthodox Jewish parochial school (Emek Hebrew Academy in the San Fernando Valley) from first to sixth grade. (1968 - 1974) We kept kosher in the home. We sometimes had Friday night shabbat meal and said blessings. We did both seders. We sometimes attended Conservative Friday night services and High Holy Days. I tried to fast on YK. Later, I attended Chabad services sometimes. I [later] prayed and laid teffilfin sometimes. Later, I tried to not work on the Sabbath. I basically stopped observance at 13 and then returned somewhat around 30 years old (Dennis Prager influenced me), and have slowly gotten more learned and observant since then, until I was exposed to ACIM (in July).

 

[LAGoff]

I have to tell you that the reason I am asking about those particular verses [found mostly] in Psalms is that those verses sound similar to how I feel now doing ACIM; so I wonder if you cast your burden on Hashem and allow Him to shepherd you?
Maybe through seeing how you and other Jews do this, I could make a more informed choice about whether to return to Judaism or not.
However, if it's simply only by being part of a[n observant] Jewish community (as you seem be implying), and so growing in 'mitzvah' observance and hence 'righteousness' (if that's your definition off righteousnes) that I can qualify for activation of those verses, then I will probably stay with ACIM. (i.e. because 'your way' depends on an outside thing: joining a Jewish community)
In any event, in the meantime (while waiting to join a Jewish community) I will explore the possibility of getting 'there' (i.e. returning to Judaism in a more balanced way; i.e. adding to the mitzvah-oriented approach I knew and [somewhat] 'loved' the 'Psalmic' dimension found in those verses) alone.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

To answer your question: No. I am not part of a Jewish community.* I pretty much isolate.

This is I think going to be the start of where I would say that if you are looking at the Tanakh from a Jewish perspective community is a major part of that. It is also a part of what Psalm 55:22 is referencing, at least in the Hebrew. See below.

Still, did Hashem say: "Cast your burdens on the Community... "or "The Community is my Shepherd...", etc.?"

In order to understand what King David, the author of this particular part of (תהילים) Tehillim was writing about you have to start at verse 1 rather than at a later verse such as 22. Also, you have to understand what King David wrote was in response to. For example, King David wrote Tehillim 22 in response to the rebellion of his son Avshalom and Ahhitophal. Also, it is understand that he wrote it as a part of a prayer or reflection on his feeling of being surrounded/enclosed in by his physical enemies transgression [against Torah]ce that rebellion was really personal and people who he trusted were being invited to join the rebellion.

It is important to note that when the above rebellions took place King David was not alone. He went into exile with everyone that was with him and loyal to him 2nd Shmuel (Sam.) 15:16-17. Thus, he was not fully alone in his exile.

You said: "[that is] actually not what the Hebrew Tanakh states." I assume you DON'T mean that those verses in Tanakh that talk about casting your burdens on Hashem and feeling no lack because Hashem is my Shepherd don't mean that? Or are you saying that they do, but only for righteous Jews?

What I am mean is that Tehillim 55 is not a general state or a procedure like what Christians sometimes make it out to be. I.e. do this and this is what happens. If you take verse 1 all the way through to the end what is being discussed is David HaMelekh Torah based experience with dealing with his situation. His ability to make the statements he makes throughout the entire chapter is of course based on his experience as being a Torah based leader of the Israeli people. Thus, someone who keeps no mitzvoth or does not delve into Torah fully may have a difference experience because of what they are lacking. Also, it is important to note the difference between saying “righteous” in English and what the text says in Hebrew.

In English “Rightous” is normally defined as (of a person or conduct) morally right or justifiable; virtuous. Yet, the text 55:13 (in Hebrew Tanakh), as seen below uses the word (צדיק) tzadiq.

The Rambam defines a (צדיק) tzadiq in the following way.

Mishnah Torah – Hilchoth Teshuva 3:1

“Each and every person has merits and transgressions [against Torah]. A person whose merits exceed his transgressions [against Torah] is [termed] (צדיק) tzadiq. A person whose transgressions [against the Torah] exceed his merits is [termed] (רשע) rasha wicked. If [his transgressions and merits] are equal, he is termed a (בינוני) Beinoni.”​

Further, Rambam states:

“Accordingly, throughout the entire year, a person should always look at himself as equally balanced between merit and transgression [against Torah] and the world as equally balanced between merit and transgression [against Torah]. If he performs one transgression [against Torah], he tips his balance and that of the entire world to the side of guilt and brings destruction upon himself.

[On the other hand,] if he performs one mitzvah, he tips his balance and that of the entire world to the side of merit and brings about deliverance/assistance and success. This is implied by [Proverbs 10:25] "A tzadiq is the foundation of the world," i.e., he who acted in a correct manner, tipped the balance of the entire world to merit and saved it.

For these reasons, it is customary for all of Israel to give profusely to charity, perform many good deeds, and be occupied with mitzvot from Rosh HaShanah until Yom Kippur to a greater extent than during the remainder of the year.”​

Bringing this all together, there are life choices that those who seek to keep the mitzvoth bring about by their actions; either against the mitzvoth or in doing the mitzvoth. Even when things become challenging the ability to succeed with the assistance of Hashem depends on what the person’s merit is based on their mitzvoth and the mitzvoth of the community.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have to tell you that the reason I am asking about those particular verses [found mostly] in Psalms is that those verses sound similar to how I feel now doing ACIM; so I wonder if you cast your burden on Hashem and allow Him to shepherd you?

The approach championed throughout the Hebrew Tanakh would be something akin to.

"We all born with challenges. We all have the ability to deal with and succeed against our challenges. These abilities were set in place by Hashem. There are challenges that are personal and there are challenges that often require working with one's community. The mitzvoth (613 for the Jewish nation and the 7 mitzvoth for the non-Jewish nations) are what Hashem provided to "shepherd" people towards success."
​

Further, as the Rambam stated in Mishnah Torah Hilchoth Deoth 2:2

"What is the remedy for the morally ill? They should go to the Hackamim, for they are the healers of souls. They will heal them by teaching them how to acquire proper traits, until they return them to the good path.

Concerning those who recognize their bad traits and do not go to the Hackamim to heal them, Solomon Proverbs 1:7 said: "Fools scorned wisdom and correction."
​

Also, as the Rambam later stated:

"It is a positive mitzvah to cleave unto the Hachamim in order to learn from their deeds as [Deuteronomy 10:20] states: "and you will cling to Him."
Our Sages [questioned the nature of this command for] is it possible for man to cling to the Divine Presence? They [resolved the difficulty,] explaining this commandment to mean: Cleave unto the Hachamim and the students of the Hachamim.

Therefore, one should try to marry the daughter of a Torah Sage and marry his daughter to a Torah Sage, eat and drink with Sages, do business on behalf of Sages, and associate with them in all possible ways as [Deuteronomy 11:22] states: "to cling to Him."

Similarly, our Sages have directed [us], saying: "Sit in the dust of their feet and drink in their words thirstily."​

This is what I meant by asking if you were a part of a Jewish community.

Maybe through seeing how you and other Jews do this, I could make a more informed choice about whether to return to Judaism or not.

I would suggest that if your consideration is going one way or the other it should solely be based on whether such a path is true or not. I.e. is it historically ancient, authentic, and authorative and does it have truth behind it that can established.

 

[LAGoff]

You wrote: "Also, as the Rambam later stated:

"It is a positive mitzvah to cleave unto the Hachamim in order to learn from their deeds as [Deuteronomy 10:20] states: "and you will cling to Him."
Our Sages [questioned the nature of this command for] is it possible for man to cling to the Divine Presence? They [resolved the difficulty,] explaining this commandment to mean: Cleave unto the Hachamim and the students of the Hachamim.

Therefore, one should try to marry the daughter of a Torah Sage and marry his daughter to a Torah Sage, eat and drink with Sages, do business on behalf of Sages, and associate with them in all possible ways as [Deuteronomy 11:22] states: "to cling to Him."

Similarly, our Sages have directed [us], saying: "Sit in the dust of their feet and drink in their words thirstily."

This is what I meant by asking if you were a part of a Jewish community."


Thanks for responding.
Where [in the Mishna Tora] is this Rambam?
It's interesting in that it defies the literal meaning of those two Tora texts.
Is it based on a discussion and/or midrash somewhere in the 'Oral Law'? (Rambam mentions "our sages") Where?
Rambam says it's a positive mitzvah to cling to the sages, but it can't be a mitzvah because it clearly says to cleave to Hashem, not men.
But I'm intrigued nonetheless.
This 'midrash'/discussion somewhere in the literature of the Sages seems to be saying that since one can't cleave to Hashem ('Him') or the Divine Presence (it seems they equate both) one has to cleave to the sages.
I'm wondering why can't one cleave to Hashem, as the plain meaning of the Tora states?
And why the sages thought that one can't? (for instance, 'their' statement -- which you mentioned -- to sit in the dust of their feet and drink their words in thirstily implies this)
Does this mean that everywhere in Psalms (and other places) where it explicitly states 'cleaving' to Hashem, we are to realistically ('implicitly'?) interpret that as referring to cleaving to sages/wise/good/righteous men?
Is this an accepted interpretation in most observant Jewish communities? Any disagreements?
If this is the accepted way, maybe my problem was/is my approach to Judaism/Tanakh: I tried to cleave to Hashem, naively following the plain meaning of the texts, whereas the wiser (not naive) Jewish community that I was not part of was happily following the sages and achieving 'spiritual' success.
I will think about this.
Thanks again,
Lenny (Aryeh)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You wrote: "Also, as the Rambam later stated:

"It is a positive mitzvah to cleave unto the Hachamim in order to learn from their deeds as [Deuteronomy 10:20] states: "and you will cling to Him."
Our Sages [questioned the nature of this command for] is it possible for man to cling to the Divine Presence? They [resolved the difficulty,] explaining this commandment to mean: Cleave unto the Hachamim and the students of the Hachamim.

Therefore, one should try to marry the daughter of a Torah Sage and marry his daughter to a Torah Sage, eat and drink with Sages, do business on behalf of Sages, and associate with them in all possible ways as [Deuteronomy 11:22] states: "to cling to Him."

Similarly, our Sages have directed [us], saying: "Sit in the dust of their feet and drink in their words thirstily."

This is what I meant by asking if you were a part of a Jewish community."


Thanks for responding.
Where [in the Mishna Tora] is this Rambam?

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Deoth 6:2 or 6:3 in some versions.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Rambam says it's a positive mitzvah to cling to the sages, but it can't be a mitzvah because it clearly says to cleave to Hashem, not men.

Actually, the Hebrew text "does not" make the statement, not men, as you wrote. See below.

Further, even parashat Hazinu, Devarim 32:7, even makes a similar statement.

Thus, a Jew goes learns about Hashem from Jews who are leaders in the Jewish community who keep Torah. Starting with their father.

 

[LAGoff]

Thanks! Yeah. I am reading that MT section and its sources and commentaries, and it is supplying the missing piece that I couldn't find without your help.

 

[dybmh]

I have not found a mechanism in Judaism or Tanakh that can catapult or spring my spiritual development into the next level like [the concept of] the Holy Spirit in the NT did for me.

Maybe have a look at this and focus on the aspects relating to activating "Reuta De’Liba", the desire of the heart.

An Essential Bond - Hemshech Samech-Vav 8 (2) | Neirot

 

[LAGoff]

Maybe have a look at this and focus on the aspects relating to activating "Reuta De’Liba", the desire of the heart.

An Essential Bond - Hemshech Samech-Vav 8 (2) | Neirot

Thanks. I read it. (just now) It has similarities to ACIM, I think, especially in regard to Unity. Dovber seems to be saying that nothing really exists other than God; and that from this contemplation a love comes; and that 'subsequently' we [are really able, with a whole heart, to] do the mitzvoth. (see quote below)


I am not a mystic however, and so this doesn't (and has never) animated me.
So why do I like ACIM? I turned on to ACIM because it has a mechanism to activate the peace, guidance and love '"those [many] sayings in the Psalms" talk about, without having to be righteous or do any mitzvoth or recognize -- Dovber style -- God's Unity/Oneness.
ACIM does this (non-mystically) through a 'mechanism' called the Holy Spirit. My reading of the NT enabled me to understand and appreciate it.
So my OP question basically was: does Judaism have something similar?
You pointed me to Chabad, which seems to be saying that contemplating that all is God (Unity/Oneness) lights a fire of love in one's heart that enables one to fulfill the mitzvot [with love].
Again, I'm not a mystic, so such contemplation is inert for me, whereas ACIM, while it does go mystic on this 'Unity/Oneness' issue, also works without needing to go there. (be a mystic)
You may say that the Holy Spirit is a mystical concept. I would say that it is no more mystical than 'looking up' when in extremity (suffering) for help and guidance. I couldn't do this in Judaism because it seemed to me that doing mitzvot went along with 'looking up' (to Hashem), and so Hashem expected more from me-- more than I could give, whereas in ACIM, and to some extent in Christianity, the 'looking up' is enough.

From the last paragraph: "Then, the primary service of the souls is in the “Hear O’ Israel” (Shma Yisrael) prayer (which is called[33] “the song of the souls”). This refers to the contemplation of Hashem’s oneness, to become included in His unity, blessed is He. This is the level of “great love” (Ahava Rabba) as in the verse, “Who have I in the heavens etc.” After this he will come to the level of “You shall love… with all your being” (Bechol Me’odecha), wherein he comes to the aspect of “the desires of the heart” (Re’uta D’Libah) due to the essential bond of desire, as previously discussed. Only subsequent to this do we recite,[34] “And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart,” referring to the words of Torah.[35] This is because it is after the aspect of “the desires of the heart” (Re’uta D’Libah) of the love of “all your being” (Bechol Me’odecha), that one fulfills the commandments in a manner of accepting the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, to draw forth additional lights in the Torah."

 

[dybmh]

Thanks. I read it. (just now) It has similarities to ACIM, I think, especially in regard to Unity. Dovber seems to be saying that nothing really exists other than God; and that from this contemplation a love comes; and that 'subsequently' we [are really able, with a whole heart, to] do the mitzvoth. (see quote below)


I am not a mystic however, and so this doesn't (and has never) animated me.
So why do I like ACIM? I turned on to ACIM because it has a mechanism to activate the peace, guidance and love '"those [many] sayings in the Psalms" talk about, without having to be righteous or do any mitzvoth or recognize -- Dovber style -- God's Unity/Oneness.
ACIM does this (non-mystically) through a 'mechanism' called the Holy Spirit. My reading of the NT enabled me to understand and appreciate it.
So my OP question basically was: does Judaism have something similar?
You pointed me to Chabad, which seems to be saying that contemplating that all is God (Unity/Oneness) lights a fire of love in one's heart that enables one to fulfill the mitzvot [with love].
Again, I'm not a mystic, so such contemplation is inert for me, whereas ACIM, while it does go mystic on this 'Unity/Oneness' issue, also works without needing to go there. (be a mystic)
You may say that the Holy Spirit is a mystical concept. I would say that it is no more mystical than 'looking up' when in extremity (suffering) for help and guidance. I couldn't do this in Judaism because it seemed to me that doing mitzvot went along with 'looking up' (to Hashem), and so Hashem expected more from me-- more than I could give, whereas in ACIM, and to some extent in Christianity, the 'looking up' is enough.

From the last paragraph: "Then, the primary service of the souls is in the “Hear O’ Israel” (Shma Yisrael) prayer (which is called[33] “the song of the souls”). This refers to the contemplation of Hashem’s oneness, to become included in His unity, blessed is He. This is the level of “great love” (Ahava Rabba) as in the verse, “Who have I in the heavens etc.” After this he will come to the level of “You shall love… with all your being” (Bechol Me’odecha), wherein he comes to the aspect of “the desires of the heart” (Re’uta D’Libah) due to the essential bond of desire, as previously discussed. Only subsequent to this do we recite,[34] “And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart,” referring to the words of Torah.[35] This is because it is after the aspect of “the desires of the heart” (Re’uta D’Libah) of the love of “all your being” (Bechol Me’odecha), that one fulfills the commandments in a manner of accepting the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, to draw forth additional lights in the Torah."

Re’uta D’Libah shouldn't require anything mystical or intellectual. It's a natural connection like child to parent.

 

[LAGoff]

If you read the last paragraph of Dovber, which I posted, you will see that according to him, Re'uta D'Libah is preceded by the great [mystical] love /Ahava Rabba. Only "after this he will come to the level of 'You shall love… with all your being' (Bechol Me’odecha), wherein he comes to the aspect of 'the desires of the heart'. (Re’uta D’Libah)"
If something (Re'uta D'Libah) is dependent on a mystical revelation/insight (Ahava Rabba) that precedes it, then everything that proceeds from that mystical revelation (or insight) is mystical too.
Also, it seems that his last sentence is saying that fulfilling the commandments is dependent on the Re'uta D'Liba: "This is because it is after the aspect of “the desires of the heart” (Re’uta D’Libah) of the love of “all your being” (Bechol Me’odecha), that one fulfills the commandments in a manner of accepting the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, to draw forth additional lights in the Torah." This implies that even fulfilling the Commandments is 'mystical'.
This may be the reason I responded so well to ACIM. At essence, it is no more mystical than 'looking up' when in extremity (suffering) for help and guidance -- not to the Father (Hashem), who can be reached only mystically (as I, and Dovber, 'showed' above) -- but to the Holy Spirit -- the non-mystical intermediary.
This may be why Jesus said that he only came for the lost, sick, and weak sheep of Israel. Those who have a 'strong'/mystical connection (the observant Jews then and today) don't need anything else.
I have to to tell you that once I started ACIM I have been spiritually, mentally, and physically incapable of doing one mitzvah/halakha. I have become like an abandoned baby who non-mystically opens it's mouth when hungry and cries and is mercifully fed. This is not to say that Hashem ('the Father') has abandoned me or that I have abandoned Him. Jesus is [just] a teacher; the Holy Spirit is just a guide and comforter, and, if I may, I can allow myself to say that Hashem is still THE one and only God who is [still] there, but mercifully allows the 'lost, sick and weak' their NT/ACIM.

 

[dybmh]

@LAGoff ,

From the beginning of the linked article:

the inner love that comes from the inner aspect of the heart, does not come from intellectual contemplation at all, but rather from a higher level than intellect, and is called “the desires of the heart” (Reuta De’Liba). It is through this higher aspect and by means of it, that there can be a grasp of the aspect of the Essence at all. This is as we previously discerned regarding the statement that “no thought can grasp Him,” i.e. specifically in thought. However, the aspect of the Essence can indeed be grasped in the “desires of the heart”(Reuta De’Liba).
​

From "The Art of Giving" in the Chassidic Heritage series Reuta De’Liba is defined on page 66:

REUTA D'LIBA: Lit., the desire of the heart; an intense love for G-d that stems from the essence of the soul. This emotion is not a product of the intellect, rather it is an innate desire of the soul that always exists within the depths of one's heart. It is analogous to the inherent love of a child for a parent, which is not the result of the child's understanding but is rather a result of the essential relationship and bond they share.

See Tikkunei Zohar 17a: "No thought can apprehend Him other than through a reuta d'liba" Intellect by its very nature is finite and, as a result, is unable to grasp the essence of the Divine, which in infinite. Reuta d'liba, in contrast, is an expression of the infinite essential bond a Jew has with G-d and is therefore the vehicle to "grasp the Divine"
​

It sounds to me like you've made a great leap in your spiritual development with this ACIM. I don't know anything about it, but, hopefully what I've brought is evidence that there is a non-intellectual non-mystical path to grasp the Divine in Judaism as well. The challenge is that after this leap is made, one is essentially starting over at ground zero with their observance of mitzvot and Torah study. If you're at a new level of attachment, the previous practice may seem inferior. But that's an illusion derived from distance. I propose that given time if you choose to return to Judaism, you'll find more meaning in your practice as a result of what you're going through right now.

 

[LAGoff]

It sounds to me like you've made a great leap in your spiritual development with this ACIM. I don't know anything about it, but, hopefully what I've brought is evidence that there is a non-intellectual non-mystical path to grasp the Divine in Judaism as well. The challenge is that after this leap is made, one is essentially starting over at ground zero with their observance of mitzvot and Torah study. If you're at a new level of attachment, the previous practice may seem inferior. But that's an illusion derived from distance. I propose that given time if you choose to return to Judaism, you'll find more meaning in your practice as a result of what you're going through right now.

I don't know about '"the Divine in Judaism". ('the Divine' sounds mystical and abstract to me) I did (do) know about Hashem though, in a non mystical and non intellectual way through doing the mitzvoth/halakhot; only, the relationship must have been lacking something-- otherwise I wouldn't have run with ACIM.
I think one reason I did 'run' with ACIM was that I had (and still have) a community / group in ACIM, whereas I did my Judaism alone.
The other reason -- the so called leap in spiritual development -- was that ACIM made me a better person.
So I am now caught in a strange place: between something (Hashem and mitzvoth/halakhot) that provides familiar warmth, comfort, purpose and meaning, but doesn't make me a better person, and something (ACIM) that is alien (it's an offshoot of Christianity) but makes me a better person.
So I will 'sit' on this and see what happens.

​