Those who believe there is no God live by faith

[sojourner]

How does this relate to you when you have already told me you do not believe in God or the existence of God? This is a belief is it not?

No. It’s “reading the lack of evidence.”

 

[sojourner]

By what logic do you or any clergyman claim to have a better understanding of the words than I do

I can’t speak for the other poster, but clergy are generally educated in graduate school in how to exegete the texts. They are taught to think theologically, so that they come closer to “climbing into the heads” of the writers than most other people besides other, non-ordained Bible scholars.

The promise in the scriptures is that we do not need a middle man

Oh, so you can read both ancient Hebrew (non-pointed, of course), and ancient, Koine Greek? You have access to all ancient texts? You have knowledge as to which texts “belong in the Bible” and which do not? Middlemen translate this stuff into English for you. Middlemen have preserved texts and canonized some of them for you. Either the texts are mistaken, or your understanding of them is.

 

[Shad]

Hi all some questions for consideration for this OP....

1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Thanks for your thoughts...

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim ergo theists.

 

[sojourner]

Just because we cannot see the wind does not mean there is no wind

We can sense the wind in other ways. Through touch for example. Through sound, as well.

Just the same as we cannot see electricity does not mean that it does not exist before it was discovered

We can also sense electricity in several ways.

 

[icehorse]

This is probably I good way to view the scriptures IMO Ice. The promise in the scriptures is that we do not need a middle man. God wants to be our teacher to all those who are willing to prayerfully seek and find him through them. As the scriptures teach cursed is everyman that trusts in man and makes flesh his arm.. JEREMIAH 17:5

And from the OP:

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures.

So this is an example. You have come to believe that god will harshly judge those who do not believe. Now, I don't know your opinion on this next point, but I've been told my christians and muslims that their god knows when a person is lying. So here's how I connect the dots, using the logic of the religious:

1 - god made me. in my case, he gave me an inquisitive nature, and made me a seeker of evidence.
2 - god knows when i'm lying, so I can't just say I believe, I have to actually believe.
3 - god will punish me for not believing.

So far, so good?

That's one reason why I think that god as defined by Abrahamists is a reprehensible creature. He made me so that he can torture me. no thanks.

 

[sojourner]

Yea heard it all before. Let me know when you want to address the OP? I do not know of anyone who believes in what you have posted above. Yet there are many that have claimed they have had an experience with God. You not believing is simply your faith

I believe in Santa Claus. Now you know someone who believes in the above. Now what?

 

[sojourner]

What is reliable evidence? Can you prove there is no God? - nope! Therefore your living by faith that there is no God. That is your religion. It is not mine.

“No evidence” = “does not exist” in any court of law.

 

[icehorse]

I can’t speak for the other poster, but clergy are generally educated in graduate school in how to exegete the texts. They are taught to think theologically, so that they come closer to “climbing into the heads” of the writers than most other people besides other, non-ordained Bible scholars.

Oh, so you can read both ancient Hebrew (non-pointed, of course), and ancient, Koine Greek? You have access to all ancient texts? You have knowledge as to which texts “belong in the Bible” and which do not? Middlemen translate this stuff into English for you. Middlemen have preserved texts and canonized some of them for you. Either the texts are mistaken, or your understanding of them is.

So, have the scriptures been correctly translated or not? If so, why are further middlemen necessary? If not, why not?

 

[Aupmanyav]

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

This is the line with which shamans, priests, charlatans and founders of religions have instilled fear in the minds of humans. They have been very successful with it.

The second line is 'Life has many problems, if you accept God, then he will move mountains at your bidding'.
God never regrew limbs of amputees.

 

[osgart]

A God that requires belief denies us the required evidence. Why should we have to meddle in belief when we should just able know that God is there?

No miracles, just simple presence would suffice. Present in any way, shape, or form. An omniGod would be able to produce a perfect existence for life of our kind. An ideal God would not let a devil turn the creation into something brute and indifferent to life, with no trace of God in it.

Evil, and catastrophe would not run free. There would be no need nor existence of abortion.

Its the safest bet that there is no God as mentioned in the world's religions.

The game of salvation is a psychological ploy from ancient human minds. Once you see past the threat of doom from non belief, you can take these religions for what they are instead of conjuring fears over the make believe.

The more of nature and cosmos you see, the less you see God in it. Hide and go seek games of religion don't cut it with the knowledge of today.

 

[sojourner]

So, have the scriptures been correctly translated or not? If so, why are further middlemen necessary? If not, why not?

Near as possible.

Because the texts are multivalent. Additionally, the Bible doesn’t stand alone as a source of revelation. It is part of the Apostles’ teaching, but not the sum of it. Clergy are the primary “storytellers” of the Faith. They fill in gaps and e Pandora upon the biblical teachings.

 

[lukethethird]

Hi all some questions for consideration for this OP....

1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Thanks for your thoughts...

I don't believe you, you are not convincing.

 

[icehorse]

Near as possible.

Because the texts are multivalent. Additionally, the Bible doesn’t stand alone as a source of revelation. It is part of the Apostles’ teaching, but not the sum of it. Clergy are the primary “storytellers” of the Faith. They fill in gaps and e Pandora upon the biblical teachings.

sounds like god is a poor communicator

 

[sojourner]

sounds like god is a poor communicator

More likely that we’re poor receivers.

 

[icehorse]

More likely that we’re poor receivers.

If god intended to communicate effectively with us, are you saying that's something god is incapable of ?

 

[sojourner]

If god intended to communicate effectively with us, are you saying that's something god is incapable of ?

No I’m saying that we’re imperfect. We don’t perceive perfectly. Paul tells us the we perceive through a veil. We don’t perceive God with perfect clarity most of the time. It’s got nothing to do with the Divine.

 

[gnomon]

Hi all some questions for consideration for this OP....

1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Thanks for your thoughts...

My thought.....another useless thread where someone doesn't realize that religion is not about God.

Dwell on that thought for a bit.

 

[icehorse]

No I’m saying that we’re imperfect. We don’t perceive perfectly. Paul tells us the we perceive through a veil. We don’t perceive God with perfect clarity most of the time. It’s got nothing to do with the Divine.

Ah so, god made us imperfect, so we can't understand his message without middlemen?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is part of the Apostles’ teaching, but not the sum of it. Clergy are the primary “storytellers” of the Faith. They fill in gaps and Pandora upon the biblical teachings.

So, what part has been missed and what the "storytellers" have added? Is there just a gap or a wide? Is there any truth in it or the whole thing is Paul's and other peoples' build-up? We do not have a video or audio of the God and Son of God?

More likely that we’re poor receivers.

If the message is garbled or in knots why blame anyone else? Your God cannot do a simple thing right!

Paul tells us the we perceive through a veil. We don’t perceive God with perfect clarity most of the time.

Paul is neither God nor Son of God, why should anyone believe him? He was just a snake-oil seller.

 

[dfnj]

Thanks for your thoughts...

First, thank you for an excellent and thoughtful post! I'm assuming you are traditional Bible based theist so I applaud you for having the guts to think deeply about your beliefs. So here are my answers to your questions.

Hi all some questions for consideration for this OP....
1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

People who are philosophical materialists usually take the position if there is no evidence for the existence of something then it simply does not exist. The problem is the way the atheists define the word "God" to be a certain way. Most theists do not share the same definition of God as the atheists. So both atheists and theists are always talking past each other.

Most atheists are philosophical materialists: Materialism - Wikipedia

Most theists are philosophical idealists: Idealism - Wikipedia

Most theists ideas about God are much bigger than the narrow-minded view of God atheists have. Most theists will argue all of existence is evidence and proof for the existence of God. Atheist reject this argument and dismiss it out of hand and do so for very specific reasons. Objects have boundaries. Atheists will not accept a definition of God not having precise boundaries. Most theists think of God as being both finite and infinite at the same time. God is both knowable and unknowable at the same time.

You might appreciate my thread on why atheists are just wrong about the Universe we live in:

Why atheism and atheists are just wrong

2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

Nobody can prove a negative about anything. I can't prove monkeys will never fly out of your butt. Someday it may happen. Someday, we my have a universally accepted proof for the existence of God. So for the time being no one can prove God does not exist.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheists define atheism as being someone who does not have a belief in god or gods.

Many theist confuse atheism with philosophical materialism. Philosophical materialism is a belief system and dogma just like religion. Just like religion, philosophical materialism is built on a set of assumptions that are considered to be true without any proof and based on faith. When we examine these assumptions in detail, they do not hold up well under scrutiny. Here is a great talk on the assumptions of the philosophical materialists and why their view is incompatible theism.

"Just give us one free miracle..."

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith),

People who do not believe in god simply do not believe in god. Not having something is not the same thing as something. Your logic here is just wrong. There simply is no way to have evidence for not having a belief in God. Your words string together but do make any sense.

3 (cont) does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

Asking this question means YOU are the one who does not have faith in your own beliefs. If you truly had STRONG convictions in your own faith you would not care one iota what atheists think. It seems to me it is YOU who is doubting whether or not the scriptures are true. If your faith were true, then you would realize the only way to think the scriptures are "right" is by having faith in them.

4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

Yes, we all live by faith in the following sense. People have many different belief systems and dogmas for finding meaning in their life. Just because someone has a different belief system than you do doesn't mean they are wrong. All belief systems are built on a set of premises or axioms that are considered to be true without any proof. For theists, all theists choose to have the axiom, "God exists." It is the nature belief systems that people who do not share the same set of axioms as you will seem to you to be wrong. Unless someone shares mostly the same axioms as you do then they will say things you will think are insane! However, this does not mean what they are saying is not the truth. It's just the way the semantics of language works. All belief systems are true if you accept their fundamental axioms as being true.

As far as I can tell, there is no way to tell objectively which dogma is the correct one. As far as I can tell, all belief systems are about equal but just have different sets of axioms. Of course, most people will argue their own belief system or dogma is the only right one or correct one. That's just the way human nature works. Not many people accept my dogma everyone has their own dogma for human language to work at all.

I think all religions are true even when they contradict each other. This is because when you are "in" a religion, when you hold the axioms of the dogma as sacred, then will find truth accordingly.

You might like this thread on what I believe happens to us when we die based on several different religions and speculations:

My four theories of life after death

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Again, nobody can prove a negative. I can't prove to you monkeys will never fly out of my butt. Some day it may happen probably without my consent.

However, I do not agree with you God's judgments are something we must fear. I think it is just the opposite. God is a God of unconditional love. No matter what sins human beings commit against each other God sits back and continues to love everyone equally. If God did not do something with regards to the bombing Dresden during WWII then I think we are safe.

Besides, in my mind a God who is to be feared is not a God worth worshiping. My faith in is a God of unconditional love. Everyone is loved. Everyone is sacred. Everyone is saved. If your fears are preventing you from accepting my way of thinking then it just means my faith in God is stronger than yours. Maybe I am wrong and it will end badly. How bad can it be it can't be worse than living in New Jersey! All I know is my faith is so strong I am not afraid of what scripture is saying I should fear. My faith in God's infinite love is stronger than your fear of scripture!!