Those who don't enjoin truth deserve hell forever.

[Twilight Hue]

Put aside religion. Put aside recognizing God's guidance and his Messengers.

If people follow caprice and don't enjoin truth, chaos is easily done by leaders that fool people of caprice and desires.

They can constantly lead people to wars and havoc creating on earth.

Justice is not possible in this case. Laws that don't make sense can also be replacing laws that do.

What is the intention to avoid truth? It's an evil intention coming out of an evil identity.

So put aside Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and chosen Ahlulbayts (households chosen by God) of the past to present, I believe too much evil happens if people don't enjoin truth.

I believe even if God didn't sent Messengers, the consequence of not enjoining truth should be hell forever.

Because you are not interested in siding with the good in this case, just following caprice.

I'm pretty sure we are already in hell.

It just has a break and rec room in it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Theres a lot of people on RF with guaranteed
access to perfect truth, effectively rendering
themselves personally infallible

What better truth is there than the one your living in right now?

 

[blü 2]

It's accomplishes vengeance and retribution which is the proper response as a last resort.

But it goes on forever. That's nonsense, has no point, is not trying to alter or achieve anything, just brainless infliction of pain.

We humans have a primitive side and that's a fine example.

And besides, vengeance for what? Says who?

 

[Link]

But it goes on forever. That's nonsense, has no point, is not trying to alter or achieve anything, just brainless infliction of pain.

We humans have a primitive side and that's a fine example.

And besides, vengeance for what? Says who?

Vengeance has a proper place in virtue.

 

[blü 2]

Vengeance has a proper place in virtue.

No, eternal punishment is a primitive and very stupid idea, since it's grotesquely disproportionate to justice, and incapable of bringing about change, and doesn't address the real cause of the problem, which given an omnipotent God can ONLY be that God.

 

[Link]

No, eternal punishment is a primitive and very stupid idea, since it's grotesquely disproportionate to justice, and incapable of bringing about change, and doesn't address the real cause of the problem, which given an omnipotent God can ONLY be that God.

Our actions in this limited time, because of death and knowledge of God in that respect (we may meet him is something everyone considers) take infinite value. Either negative or positive.

If positive, rewards will be expanded to different people based on their rate of attraction to God.

If negative, punishment will be multiplied based on rate of running/rebelling against God.

God hates evil like no one else and loves good like no else. He is most compassionate in proper place and most severe in retribution in place of vengeance and punishment.

It's a scary reality but it's truth. It's the nature of the absolute. All qualities (anger, love, peace, forgiveness, vengeance, etc) have descended to us in separate and divided ways, but in reality, their origin and ultimate form is one.

God is One. The same thing that makes him ultimately merciful and his mercy precede his wrath, also, makes him the most severest towards evil and the same thing that makes his pardon and reward of paradise towards believers, is the same glory that when applied to disbelievers, makes them in hell forever.

Those who know him fear him. Those who continue to fear him, will leave for him. Those who leave for him, will find him. Those who find him are in love. Those who love him appreciate him. Those who he appreciate him he appreciates and increases in power, blessings, peace, honor and light in ways they never expect.

 

[blü 2]

Our actions in this limited time, because of death and knowledge of God in that respect (we may meet him is something everyone considers) take infinite value. Either negative or positive.

I don't see how that can be correct. Our actions are the results of our genetics, culture and experiences, and we have no control over the first two. And given an omniscient and omnipotent and perfect God. that God has had perfect and total knowledge of everything that will ever happen in our universe, including everything that every individual will ever do, say and think, and has brought the universe into being with that perfect knowledge. Thus God has total moral responsibility for ALL that happens, ALL that is thought and said, and no one else has any, since no one is capable of deviating from God's perfect foreknowledge even by the width of a quark.

Should someone be punished, let alone punished forever, for being exactly, only, always and totally as God has from the beginning intended him or her to be?

 

[Link]

I don't see how that can be correct. Our actions are the results of our genetics, culture and experiences, and we have no control over the first two. And given an omniscient and omnipotent and perfect God. that God has had perfect and total knowledge of everything that will ever happen in our universe, including everything that every individual will ever do, say and think, and has brought the universe into being with that perfect knowledge. Thus God has total moral responsibility for ALL that happens, ALL that is thought and said, and no one else has any, since no one is capable of deviating from God's perfect foreknowledge even by the width of a quark.

Should someone be punished, let alone punished forever, for being exactly, only, always and totally as God has from the beginning intended him or her to be?

Future is unknown and can't be known unless he would preset our free-will. Environment and other factors influence our actions, but we still have choice.

 

[blü 2]

Future is unknown and can't be known unless he would preset our free-will. Environment and other factors influence our actions, but we still have choice.

So you're saying that God is not omniscient and not perfect? Indeed, since in that case [he] plainly lacks the power to make himself omniscient and perfect, [he]'s not omnipotent either.

I accept that a God who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient nor perfect will not have moral responsibility for everything in detail ─ although [he]'d still have moral responsibility generally for [his] negligence in creating the universe without really knowing what [he] was doing.

 

[Link]

So you're saying that God is not omniscient and not perfect?

?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Put aside religion. Put aside recognizing God's guidance and his Messengers.

If people follow caprice and don't enjoin truth, chaos is easily done by leaders that fool people of caprice and desires.

They can constantly lead people to wars and havoc creating on earth.

Justice is not possible in this case. Laws that don't make sense can also be replacing laws that do.

What is the intention to avoid truth? It's an evil intention coming out of an evil identity.

So put aside Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and chosen Ahlulbayts (households chosen by God) of the past to present, I believe too much evil happens if people don't enjoin truth.

I believe even if God didn't sent Messengers, the consequence of not enjoining truth should be hell forever.

Because you are not interested in siding with the good in this case, just following caprice.

Dear Link,

I shall spare you the story of how I know this because you will unlikely believe it anyway and, though you may very well not believe what I claim to know either, my hope is that it still may inspire you to reflect slightly differently on the spiritual concepts of Heaven and Hell.

When “your” physical body dies, the part in “you” that belongs to Spirit, stops experiencing worldliness solely from the perspective that was ”you” and instead experiences all the consequences of all of “your” actions during life, from the perspectives of all whom those actions had an impact on.

This is at times referred to as the spiritual state of judgement and it occurs, not in purpose of punishment, but in purpose of understanding the full impact that “your” actions in life had on worldliness itself and on the lives of “your” fellow beings.

Depending on how the effects of “your” actions in life were experienced by others, this spiritual state of judgement will be experienced as Heaven (innocence, trust, humility, belonging, compassion, serenity/ inner peace, etc) or as Hell (shock, fear, loneliness, betrayal, hatred, regret, loss, suffering, helplessness, hopelessness, etc).

Once the full impact of “your” being has been experienced and understood, “your” state of judgement has ended and the part in “you” that belongs to Spirit returns to God.

Looking at Heaven and Hell in this manner, they are not dependant on a knowledge of “truth”, but rather, are both the state (singular) by which one will grasp truth; for what is “truth” if not comprehension of the full impact of [one’s] actions on worldliness?


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Link]

Dear Link,

I shall spare you the story of how I know this because you will unlikely believe it anyway and, though you may very well not believe what I claim to know either, my hope is that it still may inspire you to reflect slightly differently on the spiritual concepts of Heaven and Hell.

When “your” physical body dies, the part in “you” that belongs to Spirit, stops experiencing worldliness solely from the perspective that was ”you” and instead experiences all the consequences of all of “your” actions during life, from the perspectives of all whom those actions had an impact on.

This is at times referred to as the spiritual state of judgement and it occurs, not in purpose of punishment, but in purpose of understanding the full impact that “your” actions in life had on worldliness itself and on the lives of “your” fellow beings.

Depending on how the effects of “your” actions in life were experienced by others, this spiritual state of judgement will be experienced as Heaven (innocence, trust, humility, belonging, compassion, serenity/ inner peace, etc) or as Hell (shock, fear, loneliness, betrayal, hatred, regret, loss, suffering, helplessness, hopelessness, etc).

Once the full impact of “your” being has been experienced and understood, “your” state of judgement has ended and the part in “you” that belongs to Spirit returns to God.

Looking at Heaven and Hell in this manner, they are not dependant on a knowledge of “truth”, but rather, are both the state (singular) by which one will grasp truth; for what is “truth” if not comprehension of the full impact of [one’s] actions on worldliness?


Humbly
Hermit

Thanks. There is per Quran three phases of hell. In this world (lesser punishment), then it takes on a less form when we die but disbelievers still heedless of the consequences of their actions. Day of judgment, the truth will be fully displayed, but it's too late to regret. They will see God as in the sense see his power and know he is truth, but will be veiled to his beauty. The reason they can't see his beauty, is because it can only be seen by vision of love. It's too late to love God now. They can't love him no matter how much they try. This is because the truth is apparent and the consequences of our actions are a certainty. There is no escape.

If anything can save people it would be intercession of his chosen, but it's too late to seek their intercession, to love them and seek redemption through them, it's too late.

I think we differ in that, you think it's never too late.

To me, life is infinitely meaningful, in that the recompense for our actions take on infinite form, good or bad.

He didn't create us in vain and is testing us.

This is our chance. Our only chance.

I think if it was as people say reincarnation till we reach enlightenment or life is just a lesson not a test with forever consequences, it makes life in vain and a falsehood and a joke. And it's no wonder people with this view in my experience, take pleasures and caprice as their way of life, and don't take justice and oppressed seriously.

They have little sense of duty.

 

[John D. Brey]

Theres a lot of people on RF with guaranteed
access to perfect truth, effectively rendering
themselves personally infallible

Setting aside the problem of who possesses truth (which is obviously a giant problem), do you think there's anything to Link's suggestion that if truth were genuinely knowable, and a person chose untruth, and even spread untruth, that would be an unpardonable sin?

What interested me in the name of the thread was the idea that truth might be knowable inside the inner dynamics of every individual, but that that personal truth has no authority outside the individual, such that every person has the option of following the truth they know in their heart (lishmah, for the sake of truth itself), or else following the external pragmatism that appears to work better in the work-a-days world. Is truth the unquestionable source for correct thought and action (if and where it's genuinely perceived), or must it be subject to the pragmatism of the communal existence outside the individual soul?

I would read Link's curse as applying to persons who have the truth in the heart, but trade it for pragmatic untruths that get them laid, make them money, or make them popular or famous.



John

 

[blü 2]

?

If God is omnipotent and perfect then God perfectly foresaw everything that would ever happen in the universe before [he] made it; and thus [he] made it already knowing and intending everything that will ever happen in it. And no one can depart even the tiniest fraction from what [he] perfectly foresaw and intended.

Hence God is directly and solely responsible for EVERYTHING that ever happens, and humans delude themselves when they think they have free will. They can never do anything that God didn't intend them to do.

If God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient and perfect then the case is otherwise, as I said, but given that means God created the universe not knowing what would happen, the charge of negligence sticks.

 

[Link]

If God is omnipotent and perfect then God perfectly foresaw everything that would ever happen in the universe before [he] made it; and thus [he] made it already knowing and intending everything that will ever happen in it. And no one can depart even the tiniest fraction from what [he] perfectly foresaw and intended.

Hence God is directly and solely responsible for EVERYTHING that ever happens, and humans delude themselves when they think they have free will. They can never do anything that God didn't intend them to do.

If God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient and perfect then the case is otherwise, as I said, but given that means God created the universe not knowing what would happen, the charge of negligence sticks.

God is error handling. He could've made a world where free-will plays little role due to how evident things are. He couldn't made Adam (a) of dazzling shinning type creation so that Iblis doesn't disbelieve, but he wished to remove pride from Angels that was not in truth. So he tried them, all passed except Iblis. And he could've then made an example of Iblis and made him disappear, but all of creation, would be too fearful to disobey God and the trial of obedience and disobedience and unseen nature of the hour "I have it almost hidden so that every soul get's recompensed for what it strives for" would lose it's meaning, and love and obedience to God would lose value.

So he too a gamble, it may have regretted him creating humans at the end, like Bible says, after Nuh's (a) people were destroyed, perhaps things were now in motion that humans regretted him.

But he's been trying to save humans from his wrath through Messengers (a) and his revelations. He could've made Messengers unbeatable and that no one can doubt their honor. But wishes to see who will help his Messengers in secret, so that he may reward them and honor them.

He wishes to love people, so has made easy way the path to him through his chosen leaders and guides and mediators, but people instead follow Iblis in envy and being arrogant towards them.

 

[blü 2]

God is error handling. He could've made a world where free-will plays little role due to how evident things are. He couldn't made Adam (a) of dazzling shinning type creation so that Iblis doesn't disbelieve, but he wished to remove pride from Angels that was not in truth. So he tried them, all passed except Iblis. And he could've then made an example of Iblis and made him disappear, but all of creation, would be too fearful to disobey God and the trial of obedience and disobedience and unseen nature of the hour "I have it almost hidden so that every soul get's recompensed for what it strives for" would lose it's meaning, and love and obedience to God would lose value.

So he too a gamble, it may have regretted him creating humans at the end, like Bible says, after Nuh's (a) people were destroyed, perhaps things were now in motion that humans regretted him.

But he's been trying to save humans from his wrath through Messengers (a) and his revelations. He could've made Messengers unbeatable and that no one can doubt their honor. But wishes to see who will help his Messengers in secret, so that he may reward them and honor them.

He wishes to love people, so has made easy way the path to him through his chosen leaders and guides and mediators, but people instead follow Iblis in envy and being arrogant towards them.

With respect, you're not addressing the problem.

EITHER God is omnipotent, omniscient, perfect AND THEREFORE no human can deviate even to the tiniest degree from what [he] perfectly foresaw when [he] made the universe

OR God is not omnipotent, omniscient or perfect AND THEREFORE [he] created the universe in ignorance of the outcome and deserves credit neither for good or ill.

Which is it?

 

[Link]

With respect, you're not addressing the problem.

EITHER God is omnipotent, omniscient, perfect AND THEREFORE no human can deviate even to the tiniest degree from what [he] perfectly foresaw when [he] made the universe

OR God is not omnipotent, omniscient or perfect AND THEREFORE [he] created the universe in ignorance of the outcome and deserves credit neither for good or ill.

Which is it?

False dichotomy.

 

[blü 2]

False dichotomy.

I don't agree.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Muffled]

I repeat, no more evidence than Apollo?

Ciao

- viole

I don't believe in evidence the way atheists view it. For me what God says is evidence.

 

[Muffled]

I suspect that death changes us all so profoundly that the concept of heaven or hell is no longer relevant.

I believe death does not change our spiritual self. What it does change is the elimination of physical experience until the next incarnation. So basically a person free of a body only has memories.