Thoughts about religions, possibilities in life, and the future of the world

[Jim]

I’ll use this thread to go off on tangents from some discussions I see happening here, without derailing those discussions. First I’ll say where I’m coming from. I’m trying to learn to follow Bahá’u’lláh, a central figure in Baha’i lore. Currently for me that includes continually trying to improve my character, my conduct, and the way I live my life, in ways that will help improve the world for all people everywhere, now and in the future. The scriptures I use for that are mostly Baha’i scriptures. I use Christian scriptures sometimes, mostly to see what I think about what people say the Bible says.

Another part of what I’m doing is trying to help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities, all around the world. Some other things I’m doing are trying to meet more people and make more friends; to be a better friend to each person in my life; to be more friendly, cheerful and helpful to everyone, everywhere all the time; and to learn to communicate with other people more, and better, about what matters to us the most.

I see something like a kind of love and trust that moves people to try to improve themselves and to participate in some kind of community service, for the benefit of all people everywhere, now and in the future. I think that will be happening more and more, and that at some time it will be enough for social conditions all around the world to stop getting worse and start getting better. Until that happens, I don’t think that any plans or programs of any governments or any other organizations can possibly stop things from getting worse. I’m thinking of those now as being something like trying to fix a leaky faucet in a burning house.

I think that anyone who wants to can find ways to help that kind of love and grow and spread, first by nurturing it in themselves, and then finding ways to help promote it, and encourage and support others in practicing and promoting it. Besides being what the world needs most of all, most urgently, I think it’s the best thing that can happen to anyone.

 

[Jim]

I’ll be posting random thoughts here about some of the topics I see people discussing. When I started this thread I was thinking of debates about the Trinity. I have nothing to say about G-d, in Himself. What I want to discuss is what I see my scriptures saying, about what He says and does. I think that sometimes when the scriptures say that G-d said or did something, or will say or do something, they’re actually referring to one of the prophets, or to some kinds of power and influence in us and in the world around us, that help us learn to do what’s best for all people and for society. Sometimes, the scriptures are making an analogy between the world around us and the work of a craftsman, and using the same name for the creator that they associate with that power and influence and with what the prophets say and do. Sometimes they talk about that power and influence in ways that we never use in talking about a person, and sometimes they talk about them in ways that we only ever use in talking about a person.

I think that calling Abrahamic religions “monotheism” is misleading, and misses the point of scripture passages that people think are monotheistic. The point is not how many gods there are. G-d does not have a number. He is not one, or three, or any other number, or even 0, nonexistent. The point of those passages is about idolatry, false Gods.

We can divide what the scriptures say about what G-d says and does into three (or more, or less) parts, and think of it as coming from three (or more, or less) “distinct” “persons,” or we can think of it as coming all from one person with a multiple personality disorder. I just imagine Him as whatever He appears to be in the context of each passage about what He says and does.

 

[Jim]

I’m doing research on some questions about Muslim and Christian views of Jesus. I’ll say briefly what I’m thinking now, and post some updates later.

I don’t think that it’s the way Jesus was conceived that makes Him the only begotten Son of G_d. I think that “Son of God” was a title for the kings of Israel, and that calling Jesus the only “begotten” Son of G_d is some kind of analogy, for example possibly comparing the difference between Him and the other kings of Israel to the difference between a begotten son and an adopted one. The day that the Son of G_d was “begotten” in Jesus might be the day He was baptized by John.

The reason that the Quran says repeatedly that G_d does not beget and is not begotten might be because maybe some people were thinking of Jesus as being a Son of G_d and Mary in the same way that some Greek and Roman gods were offspring of procreative partnerships between gods and humans, and that needed to be unequivocally denounced.

 

[Jim]

I’ll post some thoughts here about how things might get better. I think that more and more people will learn to value all people everywhere, more and more, and care about what happens to them, across all dividing lines, including lines of physiology, nationality, economic level, identity, and ideology. At the same time, more and more, people will be using their lore and scriptures to help them improve their own character and the way they live their lives, with the aim and purpose of helping to improve the world for all people everywhere. Also, more and more, people will be working with their neighbors, in neighborhoods around the world, to help make their community life healthier, happier, and more loving for everyone in it.

I think that eventually all that will evolve to a point where the cruelty, brutality and ugliness in the world will stop increasing and start decreasing, and peace, justice and prosperity for everyone will start to grow and spread. That might be in a few more generations, maybe even five or ten, but already those processes are happening and helping to reduce and counteract the damage from natural disasters including disasters arising from human nature.

I don’t have any clear idea of what will happen to religions, governments and other institutions, except that they will evolve some way to better serve the purposes of people who are improving themselves in order to help improve the world for all people everywhere. I think that most of us don’t need to know anything, or do anything, about any of that. I think that mostly what we need to do online and offline, if we want to help human progress, and help right the wrongs and repair the damage, is work on our own character and the way we live our lives, for the benefit of others; work with our neighbors to help make our community life healthier, happier, and more loving for everyone; enlarge our circle of friends and learn to be better friends; and elevate the level of our thinking and conversations to make them more fruitful and beneficial for everyone.

ETA:

“Lore and scriptures” includes the lore and propaganda of nations, monopoly interests, and identity factions, and media stories. I think that people will be learning to use those more and more to improve themselves for the benefit of others, rather than as excuses and camouflage for animosities and hostilities, vandalism, oppression, and plundering and pillaging.

 

[Jim]

@Podo I saw your question about the nature of the gods. I’m not sure my thoughts about it would interest you, but I’m not sure they wouldn’t.

First I’ll say that I don’t know what to think about the nature of any other gods besides the one called “God” in Abrahamic scriptures. I see that one as a kind of fill-in-the-blank. Everything those scriptures say about Him is an analogy, and for their purposes we can imagine Him any way we want in each analogy, to fit the analogy. We don’t need to know whether or not He exists or is real.

It might be the same way for the gods in your path, at least for now. Maybe you can trust that if you ever need to know, the knowledge will come to to you. Not that you shouldn’t be asking the question, that time could be now. Just that you might not need to worry about it.

When I was exploring a pagan path, I asked my mentors how to choose a Tarot deck, and they told me it would choose me. Sure enough, the very first deck I saw when I walked into the store was the perfect one for me!

 

[Podo]

@Podo I saw your question about the nature of the gods. I’m not sure my thoughts about it would interest you, but I’m not sure they wouldn’t.

First I’ll say that I don’t know what to think about the nature of any other gods besides the one called “God” in Abrahamic scriptures. I see that one as a kind of fill-in-the-blank. Everything those scriptures say about Him is an analogy, and for their purposes we can imagine Him any way we want in each analogy, to fit the analogy. We don’t need to know whether or not He exists or is real.

It might be the same way for the gods in your path, at least for now. Maybe you can trust that if you ever need to know, the knowledge will come to to you. Not that you shouldn’t be asking the question, that time could be now. Just that you might not need to worry about it.

When I was exploring a pagan path, I asked my mentors how to choose a Tarot deck, and they told me it would choose me. Sure enough, the very first deck I saw when I walked into the store was the perfect one for me!

I don't really have a path, as I do not believe that gods are real, nor that they even could be real. That doesn't mean I don't think they can serve as useful archetypes or guides for emulation, no different from how a little kid might look up to Spiderman, Wonder Woman, or some other fictional role model. The Abrahamic religions, and monotheism in general, just seems lazy to me, and a single perfect god introduces the Problem of Evil, which no monotheist has ever been able to adequately address.

 

[Jim]

I’m seeing anti-religion factions now as identical in their psychological and social dynamics to religious factions. The only differences are substituting the word “science” in the place of “God,” and media stories and faction propaganda in the place of lore and scriptures.

ETA
Also, using words like “skepticism,” “evidence,” “logic,” and “rational” as virtue signals instead of religious language.

 

[Podo]

I’m seeing anti-religion factions now as identical in their psychological and social dynamics to religious factions. The only differences are substituting the word “science” in the place of “God,” and media stories and faction propaganda in the place of lore and scriptures.

ETA
Also, using words like “skepticism,” “evidence,” “logic,” and “rational” as virtue signals instead of religious language.

Well I mean sure, if you don't know what any of those terms mean. For something to be real, there needs to be evidence. If there is no evidence, there's no reason to believe in a thing. Theists don't have evidence. They don't have provable attestations. They have thousands and thousands of years of mythologies, stories, allegories, and not a shred of concrete repeatable evidence. Stories have merit, absolutely, but to believe in them literally and unquestioningly is insanity.

 

[Jim]

This is the best place I could find to get some things off my chest.

Some years ago, there were a few Baha’is and former Baha’is feuding about Baha’i administration, in various places on the Internet. People on one side were denouncing Baha’i institutions and their followers, including the Universal House of Justice, the supreme council of the Baha’is of the world. For this post, I’ll call them “the liberals” because that’s what they called themselves. People on the other side were continually maligning and scolding the liberals. They didn’t label themselves collectively. For this post I’ll call them “the followers.”

I was never impressed by the denunciations of the liberals, and I never saw anyone won over to their side by anything they said. What I saw winning people over to their side, and what tested my own faith in Bahá’u’lláh Himself, was the behavior of the followers, which in my view was not only diametrically opposed to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions, but in defiance of explicit advice from the Universal House of Justice about responding to attacks on the Baha’i Faith in Internet discussions.

More recently, in two Internet forums, as soon as people found out that I’m a Baha’i, it became impossible for me to have any fruitful discussions with anyone, because of their suspicions about my motives and intentions, from the behavior of some Baha’is who had preceded me.

Now in these forums, I’ve had to give up posting in two threads that I started, because of the behavior of other Baha’is in those threads.

While I’m getting things off my chest, I’ll also say that all the Baha’i forums I’ve seen looked like echo chambers to me, revolving around popular Baha’i culture, either swimming in it or continually maligning it and raking up muck about it.

 

[Mark Dohle]

This is the best place I could find to get some things off my chest.

Some years ago, there were a few Baha’is and former Baha’is feuding about Baha’i administration, in various places on the Internet. People on one side were denouncing Baha’i institutions and their followers, including the Universal House of Justice, the supreme council of the Baha’is of the world. For this post, I’ll call them “the liberals” because that’s what they called themselves. People on the other side were continually maligning and scolding the liberals. They didn’t label themselves collectively. For this post I’ll call them “the followers.”

I was never impressed by the denunciations of the liberals, and I never saw anyone won over to their side by anything they said. What I saw winning people over to their side, and what tested my own faith in Bahá’u’lláh Himself, was the behavior of the followers, which in my view was not only diametrically opposed to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions, but in defiance of explicit advice from the Universal House of Justice about responding to attacks on the Baha’i Faith in Internet discussions.

More recently, in two Internet forums, as soon as people found out that I’m a Baha’i, it became impossible for me to have any fruitful discussions with anyone, because of their suspicions about my motives and intentions, from the behavior of some Baha’is who had preceded me.

Now in these forums, I’ve had to give up posting in two threads that I started, because of the behavior of other Baha’is in those threads.

While I’m getting things off my chest, I’ll also say that all the Baha’i forums I’ve seen looked like echo chambers to me, revolving around popular Baha’i culture, either swimming in it or continually maligning it and raking up muck about it.

Enjoying your post. I think I will have to read up a bit more on your faith. The infighting is just part of your journey, learning to have compassion on those who seem to be fighting each other is part of that. When reading the New Testament, many forget that the 'letters' were sent to deal with some problem or another, some very serious.

I am Catholic so you see what is going on now. Lots of pain, anger, desire for justice, failure of our leaders etc. Yet, my faith is something that is not shaken. Am I a fool, no, I just don't let the failures of others to dictate to me my faith path. If I started, then I doubt any human institution would stand to scrutiny.

I respect those atheist who don't have to resort to insults or stereotyping. I try not to do it, but sometimes I fail. We are in this together, no one better, more rational, or stronger, than anyone else. Some are crazier in all camps. Hmmmmmm I could be crazy sometimes as well.

About God, proof etc. Not sure that is possible, for any proof could be attributed to something else. Even if God could appear before the whole world as in some form to prove that the Infinite exists, it could be swept aside, because the infinite can't be perceived, but only some semblance. Christ Jesus for Christians is presented as the incarnation of God. He died and rose, if that is believed then the scriptures make sense, if not believed, then some theory has to be presented to undermine that if that is a need.

I grew up in Panama, they had a temple on a hill but I never went there. Sorry I did not.

Thanks for sharing.

Peace
mark

 

[Jim]

@Vinayaka I wanted to discuss with you some possible explanations for some annoying things we’ve seen Baha’is doing, like the way they sometimes think about other religions, and some deceptive ways of promoting their religions.

First I’ll put my own cards out on the table. I trust everything Baha’i central figures say, including everything they say about the central figures and the scriptures of all religions. That doesn’t mean that I always think I know other people’s religions better than they do. When I see a contradiction between what I think people are saying about their religion, and what I think Baha’i central figures are saying, part of my response is to re-examine what I think the central figures are saying. I do think that people can be wrong, and often are wrong, about their own religion, and that includes Baha’is, but that isn’t the only possibility I consider when I see a contradiction.

For example, Abdu’l-Baha said something about Buddha establishing the oneness of God. I’ve seen Baha’is arguing about that with people, saying that there must have been sayings of Buddha about God, that have been lost. I allow that as one possibility to consider, but not the only one. Another possibility is that what Abdu’l-Bahá meant was that Buddha shattered the mental idols that people were worshiping.

I might be wrong about that, but it’s an example of how I think. I’m like other Baha’is in thinking that Baha’i scriptures and Shoghi Effendi’s interpretations of them can’t be wrong. The difference between me and some of them is that I don’t think that makes my views infallible.

Sometimes Baha’is act like they think having infallible sources makes their own views infallible, but I don’t see that as anything unique, or even unusual, about Baha’is, or even about followers of religions.

I’ll talk about deceptive teaching practices in another post.

 

[Jim]

@paarsurrey I don’t think I’ve ever read the Quran all the way through. I’m not sure. If I did, it was forty years ago or more.

ETA: If you want to use what Bahá’u’lláh says to discredit what Baha’is say about Him, then maybe you should follow your own advice, and read what He says in its full context, instead of using commentaries from Baha’is, which they themselves do not consider authoritative. Only, if you read what Bahá’u’lláh or anyone else says, with hostile intentions, all you will be able to prove to any fair minded person is the hostility of your intentions.

Let me know if you’re interested in what I think about what the Quran says about Jesus.

 

[tayla]

I’ll use this thread to go off on tangents from some discussions I see happening here, without derailing those discussions. First I’ll say where I’m coming from. I’m trying to learn to follow Bahá’u’lláh, a central figure in Baha’i lore. Currently for me that includes continually trying to improve my character, my conduct, and the way I live my life, in ways that will help improve the world for all people everywhere, now and in the future. The scriptures I use for that are mostly Baha’i scriptures. I use Christian scriptures sometimes, mostly to see what I think about what people say the Bible says.

Another part of what I’m doing is trying to help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities, all around the world. Some other things I’m doing are trying to meet more people and make more friends; to be a better friend to each person in my life; to be more friendly, cheerful and helpful to everyone, everywhere all the time; and to learn to communicate with other people more, and better, about what matters to us the most.

I see something like a kind of love and trust that moves people to try to improve themselves and to participate in some kind of community service, for the benefit of all people everywhere, now and in the future. I think that will be happening more and more, and that at some time it will be enough for social conditions all around the world to stop getting worse and start getting better. Until that happens, I don’t think that any plans or programs of any governments or any other organizations can possibly stop things from getting worse. I’m thinking of those now as being something like trying to fix a leaky faucet in a burning house.

I think that anyone who wants to can find ways to help that kind of love and grow and spread, first by nurturing it in themselves, and then finding ways to help promote it, and encourage and support others in practicing and promoting it. Besides being what the world needs most of all, most urgently, I think it’s the best thing that can happen to anyone.

I applaud your aspirations. If only everyone had this perspective...