Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[Vaderecta]

They were already separated from God. Who has seen God and yet lived? So who was that they walked with in the garden? God's spokesperson or representative. His Word, most likely. Why did God rest on the seventh day? Because he was tired? Because his work was finished? No, he was neither tired nor finished working. (Isaiah 40:28 / John 5:17) What did David, and then Paul mean by not entering into God's rest? (Psalms 95:11 / Hebrews 3:11-4:10)

Are you quoting a book written by very old humans to tell us modern humans about what they thought god was or about what you think god was?

 

[Earthling]

What? What would make you think this? The foundation of the world was laid long before Adam ever got placed in the Garden of Eden. The foundation is the first thing to be laid. The entire creation took place after Jesus Christ had been chosen as the sacrificial Lamb.

No, only before the founding of the world. The world will end but the meek shall inherit what? The Earth. The world is the system of man under Satan's influence.

 

[Katzpur]

The Garden story in Genesis never ─ not once, not anywhere ─ mentions sin, original sin, the Fall of man, death entering the world, 'spiritual death', the need for a redeemer &c.

The story in Genesis leaves quite a bit out. That doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned from it.

And God states clearly why [he] booted Adam and Eve out of the Garden:

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden ...​

That's nice and clear ─ AND no other reason is offered.

But why would Adam having come to know both good and evil be a reason for God to send him away from the garden? I think it's a little bit more complex than that. I think that life outside of Eden was going to present Adam and Eve with a myriad of choices, all of which would make it possible for them to learn and progress, whereas in Eden, choices were limited if not altogether non-existent. There really were no moral choices to make when all you had to do all day was wander around picking flowers and eating fruit.

For those who think there was nonetheless original sin somehow somewhere anyway, consider this statement that sin is not heritable:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
​

In fact the whole of Ezekiel 18 is devoted to making that point.

Original sin is a much later invention, I dare say by someone with depressive disorder.

I agree. Sin in not inheritable, and "Original Sin" was not an "original" doctrine of Christianity.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The entire post is thought-provoking, good job!

Thought I’d comment on this...just some thoughts:

God didn't know they were going to eat, or touch, by the way, the fruit of the tree, but I'm pretty sure he knew it was a possibility.

Jehovah God had always given all His creatures, everything they needed....they lacked nothing.

They had no reason to doubt whatever Jehovah said.

When your parents meet all of your desires, and you know from experience that you can trust them, you’ll grow in love for them, and then you’ll never want to disobey them.

Experience..... that’s the only thing A&E really lacked.

 

[Katzpur]

This is a very odd form of argument. When I see people arguing about what Ron meant by his actions in harry potter I see the same passion you raise about genesis. These are both arguments about works of fiction and have nothing to do with your morning tomorrow. There is no tree of good and evil but some people are happy to engage about what that story meant. Just don't confuse that with reality. When I grind the beans to make my coffee tomorrow I will not be consulting ender's game to see if bean or valentine think thats somehow a sin. I think coffee is currently healthy, I might be wrong in the morning but will check CNN if I can get through the trump news to literally read anything else of substance.

Well, at least we agree on Trump.

 

[Katzpur]

What's your thoughts on what would have happened if Adam were to have shunned Eve for eating the forbidden fruit rather than Adam sharing fault with Eve?

I believe she would have been cast out of Eden and he would have been allowed to remain there. He'd have been there alone, though, so they opportunity for them to multiply and replenish the earth would have been lost.

 

[Katzpur]

And it wasn't an apple, no one knows what it was but it was likely a pomegranate.

Nah, I've always thought it had to be a bunch of nice, juicy, ripe raspberries.

 

[Earthling]

Are you quoting a book written by very old humans to tell us modern humans about what they thought god was or about what you think god was?

Both, ideally. I'm no prophet or guru, I'm just a guy who has very carefully studied the Bible with the help of the most accurate source on the planet, the Watchtower. Notice the ratings from the resident Jehovah's Witnesses? Their children are taught this knowledge. You can look it up on the online Watchtower library. There's nothing original about what I say.

Edited To Add: Of course, I as well as they, are imperfect and capable of being wrong, and not all of my posts are a reflection of their beliefs and teachings.

 

[Jollybear]

These are all topics that I could easily explain--as I have on several occasions before--but given the quality of the responses in this thread and the responses to my explanations in other threads, it seems probable that I would be wasting my time again.

I'll limit myself to answering the OP's question as to how to view Adam and Eve. A&E are most properly viewed as avatars for mankind in a parable that explains how mankind is fundamentally separated from God by nature.

Parable? So they wernt real people in history?

 

[Vaderecta]

Both, ideally. I'm no prophet or guru, I'm just a guy who has very carefully studied the Bible with the help of the most accurate source on the planet, the Watchtower. Notice the ratings from the resident Jehovah's Witnesses? Their children are taught this knowledge. You can look it up on the online Watchtower library. There's nothing original about what I say.

Are you aware of the history of the "Jehovah's Witnesses"? I will assume you do. I grew up as one. (Millerites) You can carefully study any work of fiction but how that makes you an expert of reality is of dubious concern. The mormons have their own truth and their own versions of texts to back it up. The Muslims have this different edition and these different tomes... But you have your own books written by people that lived thousands of years ago that make you think your way is right. (As if you dont have electricity and heat and everything else your ancient texts written by scared superstitious folk never thought of.)

These old ideas are nearly useless. There are some great stories but the fact that I would need to go through the bible and edit it to produce a text that is better and more socially acceptable to read to my children is a not a product of how great I am... but rather a reflection of how horrible some of those ideas were. (But you are no stranger to this... I doubt you are reading and forming ideas based on the original texts of anything but rather the currently revised and 19th edition of whatever)

 

[Katzpur]

The entire post is thought-provoking, good job!

Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Thought I’d comment on this...just some thoughts:


Jehovah God had always given all His creatures, everything they needed....they lacked nothing.

They had no reason to doubt whatever Jehovah said.

When your parents meet all of your desires, and you know from experience that you can trust them, you’ll grow in love for them, and then you’ll never want to disobey them.

Experience..... that’s the only thing A&E really lacked.

Thanks for your input. I'm wondering, when you say they had "everything they needed," and "lacked nothing," how you figure a knowledge of good and evil to fit into this statement. Do you believe that a knowledge of good and evil is a negative thing to have? When Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, God said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Clearly, God has a knowledge of good and evil, so it must be something of value. I'm not saying that Adam and Eve didn't disobey God; they definitely did, but I think it was part of God's plan that they be able to have such knowledge. And if they lacked experience, as you pointed out, how could they ever get experience without having to make choices? I don't believe it's possible to learn and grow and progress without having a knowledge of both good and evil and learning that it is by choosing the good that we find happiness. A "choice" with only one option (i.e. obedience) really isn't a choice at all.

 

[Jollybear]

Well, what do you think would have happened with Eve had she alone eaten the forbidden fruit?

She would have died, but not adam. Then if they had kids, that would be a conundrum. Mayby the kids would just live longer, rather then 1000 years before the flood, 2000. And rather then 100 years after the flood, 200.

 

[Vaderecta]

Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Thanks for your input. I'm wondering, when you say they had "everything they needed," and "lacked nothing," how you figure a knowledge of good and evil to fit into this statement. Do you believe that a knowledge of good and evil is a negative thing to have? When Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, God said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Clearly, God has a knowledge of good and evil, so it must be something of value. I'm not saying that Adam and Eve didn't disobey God; they definitely did, but I think it was part of God's plan that they be able to have such knowledge. And if they lacked experience, as you pointed out, how could they ever get experience without having to make choices? I don't believe it's possible to learn and grow and progress without having a knowledge of both good and evil and learning that it is by choosing the good that we find happiness. A "choice" with only one option (i.e. obedience) really isn't a choice at all.

I think this might be a distillation of all of human needs. Sure you don't need the internet, religious forums or fortnite... But the idea that these naked creatures had everything they would ever want sounds like something a 60 year old man would say about his grand kids. The argument is these people grew up in perfect climates where they wouldnt need housing or shelter and only each others love but then eve found something else of interest and now she is a bad person. Ok grandpa... (I don't think they had facebook or beer back then either)

 

[Axe Elf]

They were already separated from God. Who has seen God and yet lived? So who was that they walked with in the garden? God's spokesperson or representative. His Word, most likely. Why did God rest on the seventh day? Because he was tired? Because his work was finished? No, he was neither tired nor finished working. (Isaiah 40:28 / John 5:17) What did David, and then Paul mean by not entering into God's rest? (Psalms 95:11 / Hebrews 3:11-4:10)

But you're still talking about A&E as if they were real people, and about the Garden of Eden as if it were a real place, and about the seventh day as if it was an actual 24 hour period. I can't take anything that you say from that perspective seriously. It's like discussing the reasons why the Wizard of Oz decided to hide behind a curtain.

 

[Axe Elf]

Parable? So they wernt real people in history?

Correct, and further, I find it sad and pathetic that in this day and age, the notion that A&E were real people in history is even seriously entertained as a possibility.

 

[Katzpur]

But you're still talking about A&E as if they were real people, and about the Garden of Eden as if it were a real place, and about the seventh day as if it was an actual 24 hour period. I can't take anything that you say from that perspective seriously. It's like discussing the reasons why the Wizard of Oz decided to hide behind a curtain.

This is the reason why I keep making the same mistake over and over again. I should have just put this thread in the "Same Faith Debates" forum and specified that it was for Christians only. Every time I start a thread on a Christian-related topic, people who don't believe in God at all have to contribute by saying something that does not add to the discussion at all. Yes, this thread concerns two individuals that are believed by many to have actually existed. The premise of the thread supposes that much to be true. If you don't believe they did, then what's the point of your even contributing your two cents worth? If I'd wanted to discuss whether Adam and Eve were real, I'd have started a thread putting that question up for debate.

 

[Earthling]

But you're still talking about A&E as if they were real people, and about the Garden of Eden as if it were a real place, and about the seventh day as if it was an actual 24 hour period. I can't take anything that you say from that perspective seriously. It's like discussing the reasons why the Wizard of Oz decided to hide behind a curtain.

Wait a minute, I thought you said you were a prophet? Of what, fairy tales? Do you think Jesus was a real person (Matthew 19:4-6 / Mark 10:6-9)

 

[Katzpur]

I think this might be a distillation of all of human needs. Sure you don't need the internet, religious forums or fortnite... But the idea that these naked creatures had everything they would ever want sounds like something a 60 year old man would say about his grand kids. The argument is these people grew up in perfect climates where they wouldnt need housing or shelter and only each others love but then eve found something else of interest and now she is a bad person. Ok grandpa... (I don't think they had facebook or beer back then either)

Well, like I heard my husband tell someone once, "Katzpur's wants are our needs."

 

[Vaderecta]

This is the reason why I keep making the same mistake over and over again. I should have just put this thread in the "Same Faith Debates" forum and specified that it was for Christians only. Every time I start a thread on a Christian-related topic, people who don't believe in God at all have to contribute by saying something that does not add to the discussion at all. Yes, this thread concerns two individuals that are believed by many to have actually existed. The premise of the thread supposes that much to be true. If you don't believe they did, then what's the point of your even contributing your two cents worth? If I'd wanted to discuss whether Adam and Eve were real, I'd have started a thread putting that question up for debate.

Even in same faith, Adam and Eve are just characters in a fictional story. I really don't want to argue with your about whether adam and eve were real. (You might even agree with me which would make the whole argument moot) I think there could be a god just not one as personally involved and concerned as you think that he or she or it sent some holy books for us to read since all of them are gibberish refined over the years to make the next generation of adherents less outraged and more succumbing. (The fact that our parents usually make these arguments is just an acceptance of how transferrance of power works)

The fact that they are fictional is accepted truth but, their story might have some knowledge worth passing on. Stories are extremely powerful forms of passing on not just knowledge but morals and lessons. Stories are a human invention and carry with them the power of the atom bomb. There is an old saying, The pen is mightier than the sword.

 

[Axe Elf]

This is the reason why I keep making the same mistake over and over again. I should have just put this thread in the "Same Faith Debates" forum and specified that it was for Christians only. Every time I start a thread on a Christian-related topic, people who don't believe in God at all have to contribute by saying something that does not add to the discussion at all. Yes, this thread concerns two individuals that are believed by many to have actually existed. The premise of the thread supposes that much to be true. If you don't believe they did, then what's the point of your even contributing your two cents worth? If I'd wanted to discuss whether Adam and Eve were real, I'd have started a thread putting that question up for debate.

Your original post asked the question:

How do you view Adam and Eve?

I answered that question as a Xian--Adam and Eve are the avatars for mankind in a parable that explains why mankind is separated from God by nature.

My reason for contributing my two cents is hoping against hope that maybe some person out there who would like to be a Xian but struggles with the irrationalities of pop culture doctrines, such as considering Adam and Eve to be real people, will learn how to understand the Garden of Eden myth in a way that makes sense for it to be the first chapter in the first book of the story of how mankind first came to be separated from God and then was ultimately reconciled with God.